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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1041 - 2014-03-02 21:22:20 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
So Sansha being the best speed tanking ships in the Eve universe doesn't seem out of place to you at all?

There are many valid complaints. For instance the a Gallente skill giving a missile bonus.... If you can't see how that is wrong then you need to stay away from balance.

Although it is not just that some of the bonuses are in direct contrast to the overarching concepts which exist within the game, there are also fitting and practical problems which I am aware of with the Succubus and Cruor.

As mentioned many times before, an afterburner bonus means that an afterburner is going to be a necessity on a ship which is renown for shield tanking. That means we are forced to drop a shield mod, and if we want to fit a MWD, then now we can't do that either unless we want to dual prop. Removing fitting options in a sand box is never desirable.

On top of that, we are also forced to reduce the shield further if we want to actually make use of the afterburner bonus as the more shield mods and rigs we fit, the more we lose in our speed tanking ability. The Sansha ships will just become a confused mess in terms of fitting, not to mention in terms of the lore.

I'll leave the Cruor to other people, although that would much better suit an afterburner bonus. Against small targets it may have some tracking problems, but at least it will allow it to get into range and stay there to nuet the target down. Personally though I prefer the 90% webs.




1. Sansha getting better performance out of any piece of tech makes perfect sense.

2. Besides the obvious fact that the Gallente played no role in designing the Worm, you are also ignoring that the bonus is for Therm missiles(Gal flavored) and that the Lachesis(Gal) has a missile bonus. So even by your asinine rules it works.

3. You seem to be implying that you can currently fit a succubus without a prop or that afterwards some people might dual prop it. Neither of those makes a lick of sense. Maybe you should not tell others what business they have in balance debates.

4. To make full use of the AB bonus and frigs naturally small sig means you either armor tank or active shield tank. When fighting cruisers and up you can still use a MSE just fine.

5. You don't think a super AB, Super nuet/nos, armor/sig tank Cruor would be just a little OP?
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1042 - 2014-03-02 22:38:05 UTC
Aglais wrote:


Bold Point 1: This is a garbage generalization applied mainly to T1 and T2 ships which I've just made a post about, and how pirate faction ships interact with them in terms of improvement. If Pirate faction ships are to be superior I see no better way to do that than to unlink them with the horrible malus of -1 arbitrary slot. (Though if you'll look at my previous post, I do think the third high should become a mid if anything does happen to it.)

sure make it better then the ishkur
letting it have that slot as a high slot would not make much of a difference true as a mid slot however it might be a bit much tank

Aglais wrote:

Bold Point 2: I have done math. You are no longer doing a piddly 50DPS with missiles. Your two launchers are doing ~91 DPS. This is superior to the Punisher. That's without a BCS, too. If you slap on a BCS, you're doing 103. While your drones do ~111. The missiles on the new Worm are not useless- not by a long shot. You know how the Bellicose is a bit of a missiles/drones blend? Yeah. The Guristas ships are going to be kind of like that, with the balance tipped slightly more in favour of drones than missiles. Step out of the past, and look at the new ship without bias towards it's lackluster first iteration.

I would love to see that math laid out
in eft and in game a hookbill with 2 launchers shooting rage nova rockets (10% bonus per level) no damage mods or implants (all5 skills for eft) I get 67 and 62,8dps(skills are not perfect) and a punisher with 3 gatling pulse laser II using conflag does 109dps(again no damage mods) 72 with 2 guns if you meant that

Aglais wrote:

And for the love of ****stop trying to justify the removal of the missile bonus with "HURR DURR GALLENTE DONT INTO MISSILE U STUPID IF U THIKN THEY DO". This is a Gurista frigate. At least come up with a better argument than "but gallente don't use missiles".

don't put words in my mouth, thanks

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1043 - 2014-03-02 22:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Aglais wrote:

Edit: I also see people wanting to remove a slot from the Worm outright.

No! Go away! This is a PIRATE FACTION SHIP; CCP themselves has distinctly ordained that they are to perform better than even T2 while having the flexibility of T1 (1). Of course, this was outlined at roughly the beginning of the rebalancing initiative (which they also have not strayed from so far with T2 or navy ships IMO), so I don't think many of you remember.


Please stop using that outdated chart. It's offensive to factual discussion and more than slightly misleading. This is the correct chart to use.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#1044 - 2014-03-02 23:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Onslaughtor
After discussing this with Ghost Hunter (CEO of the biggest Sansha RP corp). I feel he hit the purpose of the Sansha hulls on the head.

Ghost Hunter wrote:

the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is

the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice

the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money
if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better

the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank
it's a marauder
literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare

used as a test bed
then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1045 - 2014-03-02 23:12:57 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
1. Sansha getting better performance out of any piece of tech makes perfect sense.


Nope, incorrect. If that was the case then following your logic we could start putting bonuses for everything in Sansha ship, pretty much anything goes then.

Lucine Delacourt wrote:
2. Besides the obvious fact that the Gallente played no role in designing the Worm, you are also ignoring that the bonus is for Therm missiles(Gal flavored) and that the Lachesis(Gal) has a missile bonus. So even by your asinine rules it works.


Gallente engineers have little reason to be giving Kinetic missile damage bonuses, you fail to mention that part. Give the drone bonus as the Gallente skill bonus, and then use the role bonus for the missile damage bonus. Simple and easy fix that makes sense.

Lucine Delacourt wrote:
3. You seem to be implying that you can currently fit a succubus without a prop or that afterwards some people might dual prop it. Neither of those makes a lick of sense. Maybe you should not tell others what business they have in balance debates.


Incorrect again. You shouldn't try to assume things. Read back and you will see I was talking about the whole line of the Sansha ships, not simply the Succubus.

Lucine Delacourt wrote:
4. To make full use of the AB bonus and frigs naturally small sig means you either armor tank or active shield tank. When fighting cruisers and up you can still use a MSE just fine.


And that still doesn't negate any of the points which I made regarding the lack of synergy between the bonus and the hull.

Lucine Delacourt wrote:
5. You don't think a super AB, Super nuet/nos, armor/sig tank Cruor would be just a little OP?


One thing for certain is that it actually makes some sense.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1046 - 2014-03-02 23:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Onslaughtor wrote:
After discussing this with Ghost Hunter (CEO of the biggest Sansha RP corp). I feel he hit the purpose of the Sansha hulls on the head.

Ghost Hunter wrote:

the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is

the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice

the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money
if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better

the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank
it's a marauder
literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare

used as a test bed
then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades


Very true. I'd like Sansha to stick to this theme also. Which is why I favour a damage buff and shield buff instead of an AB bonus.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1047 - 2014-03-02 23:45:10 UTC
I won't bother with quotes this time. You are captain straw man. I will make sure to be more clear this time.

1. Sansha should not get every bonus but a lore justification can be made for almost any bonus. That being said lore comes second in ship balancing.

2. They already stated why they won't switch the drone bonus to the Gallente skill. Frankly it shouldn't matter where the bonuses are placed as long as the ship has the right overall bonuses.

3. You wrote that having an AB bonus demands that an AB be fit. You stated this is bad because it takes up a mid-slot that could be used for shield tanking. This is a bad argument. Very Bad.

4. The claimed lack of synergy on the hull was already addressed and you chose to ignore it.

5. We agreed here.
Naomi Anthar
#1048 - 2014-03-02 23:47:46 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Onslaughtor wrote:
After discussing this with Ghost Hunter (CEO of the biggest Sansha RP corp). I feel he hit the purpose of the Sansha hulls on the head.

Ghost Hunter wrote:

the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is

the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice

the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money
if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better

the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank
it's a marauder
literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare

used as a test bed
then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades


Very true. I'd like Sansha to stick to this theme also. Which is why I favour a damage buff and shield buff instead of an AB bonus.


Do you want to win award for most "uncreative" person on forums ?

What you want succubus to have ? Shield res per level + role damage + tracking ? yeah delete this ship already then.
I want something extraordinary, unique - not another bastard child of merlin and punisher.

Give this idea a chance. Dude it's not like world gonna end because succubus got ab bonus.

At the end of the day game did really gain in depth, new bonus on frigates - may change solo and gang pvp meta.

Don't kill this game with your ideas please.

Does not feel like sansha ? How is that ? So sansha ship designers couldn't get with something beyond caldari and amarr boundaries ? What about incursions do you even know how they work ? How they get created ? Because Sansha is really super advanced faction capable of doing extraordinary things like creating wh's to travel where they want.
Wouldn't be surprised if they could pimp thier ships a bit.

And how is speed bonus coward , non sansha as some people say ? I would say opposite - they use speed to catch those that run from them, not the other way. It does not have optimal range bonus, so i assume speed is there so you can keep opponent pinned down , not the other way.

And stop with this caldari/amarr bullshit or minmatar/gallente etc. It's just for training. It's known that Sansha for example got people from all 4 main factions in it.

Yes my dear friends minnies and gallente are there aswell.

So yeah i see NO REASON why succubus cannot be good and unique ship after many years of being terribad ship inferior to t1 base frigs.

GJ CCP - you made this ship interesting and hopefully powerful as it should be (yet to be seen on test servers, live).
I know you value feedback. But feedback like "it's caldari so it must have 4% shield resist so i can run my missions / incursions better" - yeah you can ignore it for greater good of game.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1049 - 2014-03-02 23:58:42 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
After discussing this with Ghost Hunter (CEO of the biggest Sansha RP corp). I feel he hit the purpose of the Sansha hulls on the head.

Ghost Hunter wrote:

the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is

the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice

the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money
if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better

the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank
it's a marauder
literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare

used as a test bed
then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades


Thinking again, the analysis which Ghost Hunter makes is spot on, and I was thinking of ways in which this could be made to work.

With that in mind, perhaps the succubus could be given 3 turrets, therefore giving an effective damage of just under that of a destroyer.

The Phantasm could have it's one high utiltiy slot added to a mid slot along with another extra mid slot added for that which was missing. This would provide both extra shield capacity allowing it to survive while its opponent is held in place, whilst also allowing the fitting of the mid slot modules necessary for that task.

I think a shield resistance bonus would synergise well with all the ships, allowing the frigate to active shield tank, and the phantasm to survive whilst it pins its enemy with either an active or buffer shield tank.

Once again I think Ghost Hunter's analysis is spot on, and think that it would be a very good concept from which to direct the balance of the ships.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1050 - 2014-03-03 00:10:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Naomi Anthar wrote:
What you want succubus to have ? Shield res per level + role damage + tracking ?

Something which sticks to the current theme would be nice.

I think this sums up Sansha ships perfectly, and for anyone who flies them then it would ring true.

Ghost Hunter wrote:

the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is

the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice

the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money
if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better

the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank
it's a marauder
literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare

used as a test bed
then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades


Naomi Anthar wrote:
GJ CCP - you made this ship interesting and hopefully powerful as it should be (yet to be seen on test servers, live).I know you value feedback. But feedback like "it's caldari so it must have 4% shield resist so i can run my missions / incursions better" - yeah you can ignore it for greater good of game.

As I stated before in this thread, I do not run Incursions and never have. I know you can earn great isk from them, but I already have better methods for that. Also as I said, any shield bonus should come with a base shield nerf for the Nightmare.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1051 - 2014-03-03 01:09:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
I agree with ghost hunter that the sansha ships should sorta be one class above in terms of overall stats
but I think a generic resist bonus is just boring shield HP bonus on the other hand is used very litle and could be a more creative option maybe even an ALL HP bonus to make it a bit more unique or even all hp and repair/boost per level for even more flexibility

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1052 - 2014-03-03 01:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I don't see why people are so against Sansha having an AB bonus. It fits perfectly. Have you seen the Incursion trailers? Have you been paying attention ingame? Sansha are marauding everywhere. They're marauding to the left, marauding to the right and marauding in the center. Marauding means speed, people. Speed in, speed out, lots of crazy chaos and damage (and in Sansha's case, slave abduction) in the middle.

Sansha ships are fast. In the trailers they're fast. In the Incursion battles they're fast. NPC Sansha rats are fast and their lasers hit hard (at least the incursion-zone ones are like this). They're sort of everything that Amarr isn't.

Amarr: Slow armor laserboats with bad tracking
Blood: Vampiric tackle-ambushes that can snare you from an AU away
Sansha: Fast shieldy laserboats with good tracking
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1053 - 2014-03-03 01:43:40 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I don't see why people are so against Sansha having an AB bonus. It fits perfectly. Have you seen the Incursion trailers? Have you been paying attention ingame? Sansha are marauding everywhere. They're marauding to the left, marauding to the right and marauding in the center. Marauding means speed, people. Speed in, speed out, lots of crazy chaos and damage (and in Sansha's case, slave abduction) in the middle.

Sansha ships are fast. In the trailers they're fast. In the Incursion battles they're fast. NPC Sansha rats are fast and their lasers hit hard (at least the incursion-zone ones are like this). They're sort of everything that Amarr isn't.

Amarr: Slow armor laserboats with bad tracking
Blood: Vampiric tackle-ambushes that can snare you from an AU away
Sansha: Fast shieldy laserboats with good tracking


its just that it feels more like a minmatar style bonus also I feel that the only BS that would benefit from that bonus would be the Bhaalgorn in a cap fight not even another BS shooting at it would have trouble hitting it even if it was going 1500ms with an AB
at wich point it would be able to kite BC and with snakes and links would go like 3.5k so....that would be too fast

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1054 - 2014-03-03 01:58:14 UTC
A battleship.. going 1500m/s on an AB.. what?

I don't-

...what?
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1055 - 2014-03-03 02:14:05 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
A battleship.. going 1500m/s on an AB.. what?

I don't-

...what?


exactly, it might just be possible with snakes links and quafe + zors implant
but thats still just fine within you normal BC speed a hac webing you will just get you killed

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1056 - 2014-03-03 02:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
some playing around with eve hq adding a 20% per level ab bonus to the nightmare and going full speed fit with overdrives and gist X AB
fleet boots implants etc it gets up to 1347m/s or 1914m/s with heat with a more reasonable 2 nanos its 1148m/s or 1631m/s with heat, just two webs bring it back down to 219m/s though

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#1057 - 2014-03-03 03:36:18 UTC
Sansha style is hit and run. I've always seen the resist bonus as a reflection of their advanced technology rather than as an indication of their tactics. AB Bonus is fine, its new and it opens up interesting fittings for the succubus (and for the Phantasma and Nightmare too depending on how their base speed/agility stats are adjusted).
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1058 - 2014-03-03 08:27:54 UTC
although there is always a way to justify a radical change in lore, I think it should only be done when there are no other options or when is serves a story or event purpose.

In my humble opinion this is not the case concerning the Shansa.

yes it's a nice bonus, it will probably work in certain situations.

but it's out of place, there are more options that will show a better Anmar Caldari connection, it would be so nice that the faction with the least pirate ships has actualy something to contribute to those ships aside from needing the skill.

there are 6 pirate factions at the moment, 3 needing Minmatar and Anmar 4 needing Gallente and 2 needing Caldari and that Caldari link in Shansa is all but non exsitant.

Give the Sansha their Caldari face or remove the Caldari skill from the Sansha line, if you can find a explanation in lore to put that AB in you could find a way to change the skill needed as well.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1059 - 2014-03-03 11:36:44 UTC
Well, the shield bit of Sansha is fairly Caldari-y...
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1060 - 2014-03-03 11:39:34 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Well, the shield bit of Sansha is fairly Caldari-y...



In combination with that AB bonus I´d say it´s Minmatar :)