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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Justin Cody
War Firm
#981 - 2014-02-28 20:27:50 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Caera Ashlocke wrote:
The reason for this is that the mare is a sniper platform. It is great in missions - slowboating with a gank tank, but if one had to drop a mid mod for an ab, it would sit with tanking issues.


This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.

Let me quote Onslaughter as he sums up how I see Sansha ships perfectly.

Onslaughtor wrote:
Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships.


Right, so the nighmare should have dps approaching that of a Vindicator (but with only 4 turrets though I could see going up to 5 now). Additionally it should have a smaller signature than all of the other faction battleships by a significant margin..enough that adding two shield extenders makes its signature equal to what it is now. It speed as a base number should be only under the machariel by a moderate margin (50m/sec or so deficit) and the tracking bonus will help to operate while burning in its evil angelic orbits at the very edge of Scorch optimal.

So to extrapolate this in reverse to the Phantasm...it needs to perform above 1500m/sec(2,200 preferably) with a t2 10mn ab with a sig of about 70. Oh and be cap stable k thx.

The succubus with a 1mn should be able to hit 3K+ with the afterburner and have enough agility to maintain a good orbit while doing so. It should have its dps multiplier set to 200% not 150. The status quo is unacceptable.

Pirate ships in 1v1's should be fearsome machines..and in terms of raw power out perform T2 equivalents.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#982 - 2014-02-28 20:35:00 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Caera Ashlocke wrote:
The reason for this is that the mare is a sniper platform. It is great in missions - slowboating with a gank tank, but if one had to drop a mid mod for an ab, it would sit with tanking issues.


This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.

Let me quote Onslaughter as he sums up how I see Sansha ships perfectly.

Onslaughtor wrote:
Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships.


Right, so the nighmare should have dps approaching that of a Vindicator (but with only 4 turrets though I could see going up to 5 now). Additionally it should have a smaller signature than all of the other faction battleships by a significant margin..enough that adding two shield extenders makes its signature equal to what it is now. It speed as a base number should be only under the machariel by a moderate margin (50m/sec or so deficit) and the tracking bonus will help to operate while burning in its evil angelic orbits at the very edge of Scorch optimal.

So to extrapolate this in reverse to the Phantasm...it needs to perform above 1500m/sec(2,200 preferably) with a t2 10mn ab with a sig of about 70. Oh and be cap stable k thx.

The succubus with a 1mn should be able to hit 3K+ with the afterburner and have enough agility to maintain a good orbit while doing so. It should have its dps multiplier set to 200% not 150. The status quo is unacceptable.

Pirate ships in 1v1's should be fearsome machines..and in terms of raw power out perform T2 equivalents.



it's not like shield buffer tanking gives you a worse speed:sig than armour buffer. what is up with everyone?
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#983 - 2014-02-28 21:14:10 UTC
still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules.......
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#984 - 2014-02-28 21:40:17 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Thukker seems like a good candidate. Would give Thukker missioning in Great Wildlands a much needed buff.


Thukker LP is already quite good.

If anyone has a crappy LP store, its the Mordus.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#985 - 2014-02-28 22:21:23 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:
still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules.......



or shield HP

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#986 - 2014-02-28 23:25:34 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules.......



or shield HP



Why?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#987 - 2014-02-28 23:30:53 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules.......



or shield HP



Why?


well guristas have the shield resistance they won't give it to sansha aswell .. but a shield HP they might

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#988 - 2014-02-28 23:50:51 UTC
Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.

As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.

Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.

I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race.
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#989 - 2014-03-01 00:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Shin Dari
WORM

I use the Worm a lot and I always associated Guristas with big shields, big drone bays and a couple of launchers.

If CCP goes with the plan from the OP then I would suggest a Guristas feature of having their Drone bays carry 5 sets of drones, this would mean for the Worm that it would have a drone bay of 50m3 (2 drone x 5 m3 x 5 sets).


Edit: If the other Guristas ships will also use drone pairs then their drone bays will be like so:

Worm 50 m3
Gila 100 m3
Rattlesnake 250 m3
Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory
Infernal Octopus
#990 - 2014-03-01 01:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Quindaster
Elusive Panda wrote:
Quindaster wrote:




What is this, I don't even...
We're trying to find a balance here, if it was this way 7 years ago, who cares?



I tell you who cares - me and many old players. I don't want to play in "first brake something good, and after when we brake it - play in back in time game before we brake it"
If you will try to buy new car in 2014 and when you paid for it, you will get 7 years old car and you will ask - why you get 7 years old car if you paid for new? ANd auto seller will answer you - it's absolutely new, new everything, just 7 years old technology inside it, but it's looks like new car of 2014. I think you will care.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#991 - 2014-03-01 02:15:29 UTC
Quindaster wrote:
Elusive Panda wrote:
Quindaster wrote:




What is this, I don't even...
We're trying to find a balance here, if it was this way 7 years ago, who cares?



I tell you who cares - me and many old players. I don't want to play in "first brake something good, and after when we brake it - play in back in time game before we brake it"
If you will try to buy new car in 2014 and when you paid for it, you will get 7 years old car and you will ask - why you get 7 years old car if you paid for new? ANd auto seller will answer you - it's absolutely new, new everything, just 7 years old technology inside it, but it's looks like new car of 2014. I think you will care.

Isnt that what most people already do, new tech is for top of the line cars and consumer valued cars use "old" tech
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#992 - 2014-03-01 02:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
SUCCUBUS

The AB bonus feels very out of place on a sansha ship indeed a Shield HP bonus would be pretty unique and be much more in line with what one would expect from sansha ships piloted by mind controlled slaves

also I think that increasing the damage bonus to 200% would give it some more needed oomph

Edit: both fitting nerfs seem very uncalled for it rather needs more cpu on top of the current


CRUOR

here the the ab bonus of the succubus fits much better then the web range bonus which as explained several times in this thread only helps to get in range against ships that don't have a web themselves
Edit: even the bhaal in its current role would benefit from it since they have to dodge dreads

adding a neut range bonus on top at 15% would be an option too but probably too powerful

Edit: 164dps(IN MF) is actually pretty bad dps since it has to use all lows and rigs for tank

WORM

Gallente engineers know jack about missiles! the 300% drone bonus is very powerful and it should be required to have caldari frigate 5 to get the full benefit
266dps with 3dda's dang it!

also im not sure if the missile damage bonus has much of a reason to exist 2 light launchers add 48dps rockets add 56 seems like a waste of a bonus to me

DAREDEVIL

seems solid

DRAMIEL

might get left behind, consider giving it some of its power grid back or maybe increasing its falloff bonus by 5% a tad more lock range would help it tackle better

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#993 - 2014-03-01 03:30:03 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.

As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.

Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.

I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race.


nice point there, and its lore based because the background of sansha ships is that they were designed to be enduring hulls, taking in account where they come from, Sansha should have put a good effort in tanking the ship. so a buffer bonus would be interesting......

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#994 - 2014-03-01 05:12:40 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules.......



or shield HP



Why?


well guristas have the shield resistance they won't give it to sansha aswell .. but a shield HP they might



Why any shield bonus at all?
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#995 - 2014-03-01 05:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Onslaughtor
Silivar Karkun wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.

As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.

Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.

I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race.


nice point there, and its lore based because the background of sansha ships is that they were designed to be enduring hulls, taking in account where they come from, Sansha should have put a good effort in tanking the ship. so a buffer bonus would be interesting......

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)


We would still likely have to drop a high to a low and retrieve the lost slot on the Phantasm and the Nightmare, but I could get behind this.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#996 - 2014-03-01 09:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Onslaughtor wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.

As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.

Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.

I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race.


nice point there, and its lore based because the background of sansha ships is that they were designed to be enduring hulls, taking in account where they come from, Sansha should have put a good effort in tanking the ship. so a buffer bonus would be interesting......

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)


We would still likely have to drop a high to a low and retrieve the lost slot on the Phantasm and the Nightmare, but I could get behind this.

A 10% bonus will be far too high given that Sansha can already attain very high levels of shield HP, on the nightmare it will be downright OP with this bonus. Although I really like the concept, I just think the numbers need tweaking.

How about something like this :


SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret (damage) and tracking speed

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
(5%) bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage


I prefer to give more emphasise to the ship skill than to a role bonus, as a pirate ship shouldn't be easy to jump into and simply get maximum stats. Also I think it would be nice to give Sansha ships a 7.5% damage bonus, this would mean overall damage would be at 175% instead of the current 150%.

The Nightmare could be given a 20% base shield nerf perhaps to counteract this shield bonus as I feel the nightmare is probably only needing a very slight buff if any at all to keep it competitive. The 175% damage bonus would mean that it would have 11 effective turrets instead of 10, and then perhaps a small boost to it's shield would be all that is necessary.

The Phantasm and Succubus would both become very desirable due to their raw power. They would both benefit from a higher base shield capacity with this bonus, without the drawback that fitting shield mods brings of a lower signature. And with the Succubus having the equivalent of 5.5 turrets, and the Phantasm 8.25 turrets, both would be able to deliver comparable damage to other pirate ships of their class.

Then as a result you could make the Cruor like this:


CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Energy Vampires always operate at full efficiency
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#997 - 2014-03-01 13:56:47 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
[...]

[...]


dual prop is stupid


Yes it is, still doesn't change the fact you could. It's just not necessary as AB-speeds are already this high. I can't follow on your complaints regarding AB-bonus. It's extremely strong on itself, but the whole ships comes with compromises.

You can buffer it and your 2km/s are slightly countered by a 40-46m sig, you can plate it and lose some of the speed, or you can active tank it and run into cap issues. It's a strong bonus, but there are limitations to the whole ship and it's guns tracking or dps.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#998 - 2014-03-01 15:09:54 UTC
I am not about to worry what a given bonus will do to the cruisers or battleships. These things can be adjusted on those hulls when the time comes. These ships follow themes, they are not cloned and just made bigger.

My main worry with a %hp shield bonus is the passive Regen. At some point you can get enough shields that you have the regen of a booster without actually having a booster. I dont think this will be much of an issue with a frigates limited slots though, so 10%/level is probably fine. It bears watching though. I am not terribly pleased with a tracking bonus as both Amarr and Caldari favor optimal range bonuses on their turrets. I can see where a tracking bonus is needed at the boosted AB speed, but I am not sure that it would not be better to have them pull some range, fly at something other than 100% when fireing, or other pilot skill solutions to that problem. I would like to see this:

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Afterburner Velocity
35% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range (or tracking if it determined this is really needed, not just better)
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#999 - 2014-03-01 15:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I am not about to worry what a given bonus will do to the cruisers or battleships. These things can be adjusted on those hulls when the time comes. These ships follow themes, they are not cloned and just made bigger.

My main worry with a %hp shield bonus is the passive Regen. At some point you can get enough shields that you have the regen of a booster without actually having a booster. I dont think this will be much of an issue with a frigates limited slots though, so 10%/level is probably fine. It bears watching though. I am not terribly pleased with a tracking bonus as both Amarr and Caldari favor optimal range bonuses on their turrets. I can see where a tracking bonus is needed at the boosted AB speed, but I am not sure that it would not be better to have them pull some range, fly at something other than 100% when fireing, or other pilot skill solutions to that problem. I would like to see this:

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Afterburner Velocity
35% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range (or tracking if it determined this is really needed, not just better)


too much bonuses for a single hull(no more Nestors pls)....you either leave the optimal bonus or the AB bonus.......in fact:

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
7,5% to small energy turret Optimal Range and Tracking Speed

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
150% bonus to small energy turret damage

this should do the trick......that 7,5% bonus would have a really good synergy with T2 Crystals, specially Conflagration...
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1000 - 2014-03-01 15:43:15 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I am not about to worry what a given bonus will do to the cruisers or battleships. These things can be adjusted on those hulls when the time comes. These ships follow themes, they are not cloned and just made bigger.

My main worry with a %hp shield bonus is the passive Regen. At some point you can get enough shields that you have the regen of a booster without actually having a booster. I dont think this will be much of an issue with a frigates limited slots though, so 10%/level is probably fine. It bears watching though. I am not terribly pleased with a tracking bonus as both Amarr and Caldari favor optimal range bonuses on their turrets. I can see where a tracking bonus is needed at the boosted AB speed, but I am not sure that it would not be better to have them pull some range, fly at something other than 100% when fireing, or other pilot skill solutions to that problem. I would like to see this:

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Afterburner Velocity
35% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range (or tracking if it determined this is really needed, not just better)


too much bonuses for a single hull(no more Nestors pls)....you either leave the optimal bonus or the AB bonus.......in fact:

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
7,5% to small energy turret Optimal Range and Tracking Speed

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
150% bonus to small energy turret damage

this should do the trick......that 7,5% bonus would have a really good synergy with T2 Crystals, specially Conflagration...


Dude... You claim too many bonuses on one hull, take away one bonus, and then replace it by strengthening one of the other bonuses and adding a bonus.

Putting the optimal or tracking with the ab bonus fits because it counters the negative effects of the increased speed. Given the range of lasers I would sooner leave the application bonus completely off than drop the AB and replace it with a stronger application bonus in both tracking and range.