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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#961 - 2014-02-28 12:20:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Caera Ashlocke wrote:
The reason for this is that the mare is a sniper platform. It is great in missions - slowboating with a gank tank, but if one had to drop a mid mod for an ab, it would sit with tanking issues.


This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.

Let me quote Onslaughter as he sums up how I see Sansha ships perfectly.

Onslaughtor wrote:
Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#962 - 2014-02-28 12:25:39 UTC
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Y'all gingers got no clue bout the Cruor. The bonuses work wonderful and will synergize into a ship that will dictate anything but a Daredevil*.


*Limitations may apply, such as Blaster-Daredevils s*cking donkeyballs and thus are easy prey.



The issue is that you can't use both bonuses at the same time. As soon as you get into nuet/nos range you are in normal web range and once again slower than everything else.



Each of the 2 bonuses is already very powerful on it's own, and while they are not going to collaborate very well at the same time, they both greatly benefit each other.
The Web-Bonus allows for application of the NOS/Neut bonus, which will then shut down a target's ability to dictate range.
Now probably all of you will say 'No way, not going to happen', and that's because you don't think it to the end. You don't have the right setup in your mind, and yes, if you try to adapt your strategy onto the Cruor, i can see how most of you will get kited by a Rifter - and die horribly to it.

I mentioned it earlier, the only real 'Tech 1' frigate that is probably going to steamroll the new Cruor is a Rail-DD. All the others will be trapped like a fly in a spider's web, trying everything they can to get away, but eventually they will fall to the lurking spider that is the Cruor.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#963 - 2014-02-28 12:32:34 UTC
Quindaster wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Quindaster wrote:



If you want new stuff whenever something changes, i suggest you go play WoW...

Changing around bonuses in an attemt to make balance, is hard work. just look at the number of people in this thread that have problems with masic math :P Trying to avoid OP ships and at the same time bring use to underused ships mean you ahve to take into accord not just what each and every ship can do, but what players decide they should be able to do



I will explain you in other way, so you will understand maybe like for 6 years old kid.

If I brake your leg, you will need to find job for itself not too far away from your home (in close range).
After you found job (I think it will be some job near computer where you can use own 2 hands) so after I will brake your one arm, because I think, you type on computer too fast and even 1 arm will be enough for you.
After when you will be absolutely useless, I will tell you - I will repair your broken leg a bit, so you will be rebalanced and find a job far away from own home, with one arm...
And after maybe I will brake your second arm, but you can be far away from your home and need to be happy.

So, you want to say, you will be more happy with broken legs and arms, even if I have promised you, I can turn back time and aim fully your leg and we can count it never happened?

Maybe would be better even not to brake your legs and arms and after 7 years understand it?


Ill wait until someone translates this to something i can understand, not beeing a native english speaker myself most likely makes it worse :(
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#964 - 2014-02-28 13:14:09 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
One general comment.


Can we please avoid the tiresome cycle of buffing something to the point of being OP, waiting to everyone stockpiles and trains for the newly OP thing and then nerfing that thing to the point of uselessness :D


Guessing a wolf will still dumpster a succubus 97/100, a slicer will possibly keep on murdering that worm, and the cruor will have a hard time against the tweaked rifter.

At least that's what it looks like to me.
Lugalzagezi666
#965 - 2014-02-28 15:01:39 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
...

The cruors bonuses and ship capabilities are complete opposite of synergy.

Web range bonus will not help you to apply neuts at all, because the second you are counterscrammed, you completely lose range dictation. Then the opponent has almost 5km (6,3 - 10,8km) window where he can comfortably avoid getting neuted. And only thing the opponent needs to have is mwd and scram. And if you are fitting scram on cruor, you can as well ignore web range bonus... and web strenght bonus would be much better for you.

Simply said, another example of ccp randomly applying bonuses, layouts and fittings to the hulls and not caring about its synergy with other bonuses, weapon systems or hulls capabilities. And what is sad, most people only care about web strenght bonus of their incursion farming, wh farming and dread blap enabling serpentis ships.

Cant wait to see afterburner nightmare or heavy drone only rattlesnake.Lol
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#966 - 2014-02-28 15:55:08 UTC
Looks like a good time. I actually like that the cruor has some bonuses that don't synergize well with only one playstyle. Forces you to comprimise to get the most you can out of the ship or underutilize one of the bonuses.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#967 - 2014-02-28 16:13:40 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Stop being crybabies, all changes look good...especially if you take into account the state of the hulls before them. I really look forward to the new Worm myself, I think a 10mn AB support frig loadout would be peachy...P

CCP Rise wrote:
  • We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.

    • Glad to hear that, and thanks for a very nice re-balance thread...can you confirm at this point whether the faction will be one of the known candidates? (Thukker, Mordus Legion) C:


    Thukker seems like a good candidate. Would give Thukker missioning in Great Wildlands a much needed buff.

    http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
    Jon Joringer
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #968 - 2014-02-28 16:55:21 UTC
    Quindaster wrote:
    I will explain you in other way, so you will understand maybe like for 6 years old kid.

    If I brake your leg, you will need to find job for itself not too far away from your home (in close range).
    After you found job (I think it will be some job near computer where you can use own 2 hands) so after I will brake your one arm, because I think, you type on computer too fast and even 1 arm will be enough for you.
    After when you will be absolutely useless, I will tell you - I will repair your broken leg a bit, so you will be rebalanced and find a job far away from own home, with one arm...
    And after maybe I will brake your second arm, but you can be far away from your home and need to be happy.

    So, you want to say, you will be more happy with broken legs and arms, even if I have promised you, I can turn back time and aim fully your leg and we can count it never happened?

    Maybe would be better even not to brake your legs and arms and after 7 years understand it?

    Please tell me I'm not the only one that read this in a threatening Russian voice.
    White Drop
    Nomads of Republic
    Smile 'n' Wave
    #969 - 2014-02-28 17:43:57 UTC
    Dramiel needs to be buffed.

    Right now it is only used as a fast frig, and in combat it is not more than a firetail with a limited PG and much bigger price
    Elusive Panda
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #970 - 2014-02-28 18:08:53 UTC
    Quindaster wrote:


    I will explain you in other way, so you will understand maybe like for 6 years old kid.

    If I brake your leg, you will need to find job for itself not too far away from your home (in close range).
    After you found job (I think it will be some job near computer where you can use own 2 hands) so after I will brake your one arm, because I think, you type on computer too fast and even 1 arm will be enough for you.
    After when you will be absolutely useless, I will tell you - I will repair your broken leg a bit, so you will be rebalanced and find a job far away from own home, with one arm...
    And after maybe I will brake your second arm, but you can be far away from your home and need to be happy.

    So, you want to say, you will be more happy with broken legs and arms, even if I have promised you, I can turn back time and aim fully your leg and we can count it never happened?

    Maybe would be better even not to brake your legs and arms and after 7 years understand it?


    What is this, I don't even...
    We're trying to find a balance here, if it was this way 7 years ago, who cares? Also, your analogy is impossible to decipher.

    That said. the Cruor bonuses doesn't synergize well together, maybe add a range bonus on top of it so it gets at least 10km neut range, the same as cold webs so you can't be scram kited OR give it a base speed bonus so it can dictate range more easily. (Neut range seems more in line with the blood theme).

    Being a Gila pilot myself, I can't wait to try the new Worm, it looks absolutely perfect. (Still have some doubt about the Gila implementation, but we'll see when we get there) .

    The massive AB bonus on the Sansha looks interesting, but it feels out of place IMO. I feel like Sansha's ship should be beefy, powerful, slow, with an alien twist somewhere. While the AB bonus IS totally unique, it just doesn't seems very Sansha like.
    + the capacitor and laser tracking problem.

    Minmatar/Caldari Missile based pirate faction (Mordu's ?) seems like a better faction to give the 100% AB bonus to. Missile ignore YOUR own speed when calculating damage application (thus the huge speed from the AB isn't such a problem) and speed is the name of the game for Minmatar.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #971 - 2014-02-28 18:25:38 UTC
    Noxisia Arkana wrote:
    Looks like a good time. I actually like that the cruor has some bonuses that don't synergize well with only one playstyle. Forces you to comprimise to get the most you can out of the ship or underutilize one of the bonuses.


    it's really bad. like the sentinel or dragoon, you get a silly 1v1 brawler that can kill/escape from any lone frigate (not that anyone will engage), but because of the 3 lowslot thing, that's actually all you can do with it. in any kind of small gang thing, you'll be instantly killed because everyone knows you're in a dangerous ship that's unable to fit any kind of tank. either that, or you're planning to make some sort of fat hyena out of it. that's awful as well, and really not what it should be doing.

    I already posted it, but they should drop the web bonus and a mid for a lowslot and a resist or armour hp bonus. a 2 midslot brawling frigate does work well enough if it caps everything out. lasers and cap warfare is enough of a thing for these ships imo, they don't need the web thing as well.
    Pertuabo Enkidgan
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #972 - 2014-02-28 18:26:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Pertuabo Enkidgan
    I'm digging the extra webby range, keep that atleast on her.

    I don't agree on Sansha ships having underpowered capacitors, there is more than ASB's too, Rise.

    Also see if you can work drone effects into the ships too when you're taking a look at drones (extra capacitor draining bonus on drones, increasing webby effectiveness on web drones, etc)

    What about drones that can smartbomb and have 99% racial resistance?
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #973 - 2014-02-28 18:37:16 UTC
    Pertuabo Enkidgan wrote:

    I don't agree on Sansha ships having underpowered capacitors, there is more than ASB's too, Rise.


    I hear medium shield extenders are really good, and don't use cap.
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #974 - 2014-02-28 19:03:26 UTC
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    [quote=Caera Ashlocke]This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.]


    If you're in a frigate with THAT sort of AB-speed, you don't really bother with the additional 10m sig you get by buffershieldtanking it.

    Moreover: 3/4/3 is all but a dedicated shieldlayout. The most common succubus might rather be a webscramkiter with an AAR and a TD, potentially even dualrepped with cap booster. They also don't need to drop a mid for an AB, that's nonsense. One of your mids will ALWAYS be a propmod on any frigatefit, it just means that fitting an AB makes so much more sense compared ot fitting an mwd.

    Lastly, a single MSE is plenty of tank, with the current slot/bonuslayout, there is nothing blocking you from fitting it like a dp-dram.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #975 - 2014-02-28 19:12:14 UTC
    Lloyd Roses wrote:
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    [quote=Caera Ashlocke]This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.]


    If you're in a frigate with THAT sort of AB-speed, you don't really bother with the additional 10m sig you get by buffershieldtanking it.

    Moreover: 3/4/3 is all but a dedicated shieldlayout. The most common succubus might rather be a webscramkiter with an AAR and a TD, potentially even dualrepped with cap booster. They also don't need to drop a mid for an AB, that's nonsense. One of your mids will ALWAYS be a propmod on any frigatefit, it just means that fitting an AB makes so much more sense compared ot fitting an mwd.

    Lastly, a single MSE is plenty of tank, with the current slot/bonuslayout, there is nothing blocking you from fitting it like a dp-dram.


    dual prop is stupid
    Chainsaw Plankton
    FaDoyToy
    #976 - 2014-02-28 19:14:07 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage,



    yay, I remember saying last time around the rattler needed a damage bonus.

    heh looking at those posts now kinda makes me laugh, as they were all pre drone damage amp mods. but still, the rattlesnake needs more damage.

    @ChainsawPlankto on twitter
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #977 - 2014-02-28 19:34:23 UTC
    Lloyd Roses wrote:
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    [quote=Caera Ashlocke]This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.]


    If you're in a frigate with THAT sort of AB-speed, you don't really bother with the additional 10m sig you get by buffershieldtanking it.

    Moreover: 3/4/3 is all but a dedicated shieldlayout. The most common succubus might rather be a webscramkiter with an AAR and a TD, potentially even dualrepped with cap booster. They also don't need to drop a mid for an AB, that's nonsense. One of your mids will ALWAYS be a propmod on any frigatefit, it just means that fitting an AB makes so much more sense compared ot fitting an mwd.

    Lastly, a single MSE is plenty of tank, with the current slot/bonuslayout, there is nothing blocking you from fitting it like a dp-dram.

    Your are thinking simply of the frigate, I am thinking ahead in terms of what is to come for the Phantasm and Nightmare. The frigate is alright, and an afterburner bonus makes some sense, obviously you will always have a prop mod on a frigate anyway so there is no issue using a mid slot for it. But for the Phantasm and Nightmare, then the problems I mentioned above will become apparent. I expect more people will have complaints when we see the Cruiser's and then finally the Battleships if these bonuses are left.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #978 - 2014-02-28 19:44:25 UTC
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    Lloyd Roses wrote:
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    [quote=Caera Ashlocke]This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.]


    If you're in a frigate with THAT sort of AB-speed, you don't really bother with the additional 10m sig you get by buffershieldtanking it.

    Moreover: 3/4/3 is all but a dedicated shieldlayout. The most common succubus might rather be a webscramkiter with an AAR and a TD, potentially even dualrepped with cap booster. They also don't need to drop a mid for an AB, that's nonsense. One of your mids will ALWAYS be a propmod on any frigatefit, it just means that fitting an AB makes so much more sense compared ot fitting an mwd.

    Lastly, a single MSE is plenty of tank, with the current slot/bonuslayout, there is nothing blocking you from fitting it like a dp-dram.

    Your are thinking simply of the frigate, I am thinking ahead in terms of what is to come for the Phantasm and Nightmare. The frigate is alright, and an afterburner bonus makes some sense, obviously you will always have a prop mod on a frigate anyway so there is no issue using a mid slot for it. But for the Phantasm and Nightmare, then the problems I mentioned above will become apparent. I expect more people will have complaints when we see the Cruiser's and then finally the Battleships if these bonuses are left.


    the frigate isn't alright, it's stupid.
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #979 - 2014-02-28 20:09:20 UTC
    When I say it is alright, I mean it is good purely in terms of it's performance. I dislike the whole Caldari ship skills giving Sansha an afterburner bonus immensely. And the Phantasm, and especially the Nightmare, are not going to look anywhere near as good as the frigate does in terms of performance as a result of an afterburner bonus.

    What is going to be the point in a faction bonus when it only positively impacts the performance of one ship out of the whole line up, and the most insignificant ship at that.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #980 - 2014-02-28 20:17:38 UTC
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    When I say it is alright, I mean it is good purely in terms of it's performance. I dislike the whole Caldari ship skills giving Sansha an afterburner bonus immensely. And the Phantasm, and especially the Nightmare, are not going to look anywhere near as good as the frigate does in terms of performance as a result of an afterburner bonus.

    What is going to be the point in a faction bonus when it only positively impacts the performance of one ship out of the whole line up, and the most insignificant ship at that.


    none of them should have afterburner bonuses. no ships should.

    also, lol @ "the most insignificant ship".