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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Lugalzagezi666
#901 - 2014-02-27 17:58:51 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Does anyone else think the afterburner bonus would be much better suited on the Blood Raider ships? Switch the web bonus completely with an afterburner bonus, keep the nos stats. Ship is perfect.

Then give the Sansha an ECM drone bonus and enough bandwidth to utilise 4 drones as I proposed earlier, or if not then give it some type of shield bonus. Something with regards to shifting resistances built into the hull would be pretty nice as someone else suggested earlier.


I think afterburner bonus would be good on ANY frig, mediocre to bad on any cruiser and worthless on any pirate battleship.

I also think the bonus to ecm drones and every other ecm bonus on pirate hull is useless and not desirable. Generally ecm mechanics is bad and it would be much better if it wasnt in game at all.

Riot Girl wrote:

It only has to neut some stuff, not everything.

Well, bad for cruor then, because its not going to neut anything, except pilots that dont read ship descriptions and complete tools that dont understand range control mechanics. But its really bad for you if you need pirate hull to kill such opponents.
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#902 - 2014-02-27 18:02:17 UTC
I really like how unique the new pirate frigate bonuses are, they make the pirate ships stand out of the crowd with something of their own, instead of being the slightly stronger version of something else.

yet, this afterburner bonus doesn't quite sound Sansha to me - it belongs to the Angels ships, which are rather plain right now. Sansha should get something more in tone with incursions, yet i don't know what that should be - a unique way of tacking or disruption maybe?

Their point spreads to nearby ships, allowing to tackle multiple targets at once? Or something crazy like that.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#903 - 2014-02-27 18:41:44 UTC
Cruor is going to be a powerful ship with a huge range of forgiveness when you fck it up. You just need to figure out the medslots, that's it. A Rail DD might hurt it, a Succubus will be a good fight, and everything else will need links to dictate range and/or disengage. Or has to be an EAF.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#904 - 2014-02-27 18:45:42 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Cruor is going to be a powerful ship with a huge range of forgiveness when you fck it up. You just need to figure out the medslots, that's it. A Rail DD might hurt it, a Succubus will be a good fight, and everything else will need links to dictate range and/or disengage. Or has to be an EAF.


rail DD, try rail incursus lol
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#905 - 2014-02-27 18:49:08 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Cruor is going to be a powerful ship with a huge range of forgiveness when you fck it up. You just need to figure out the medslots, that's it. A Rail DD might hurt it, a Succubus will be a good fight, and everything else will need links to dictate range and/or disengage. Or has to be an EAF.


rail DD, try rail incursus lol



... Not sure what you're trying to say, but it's either:

- you think a Rail Incursus will eat the new Cruor
or
- you think a Rail DD is bad.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#906 - 2014-02-27 18:50:14 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Cruor is going to be a powerful ship with a huge range of forgiveness when you fck it up. You just need to figure out the medslots, that's it. A Rail DD might hurt it, a Succubus will be a good fight, and everything else will need links to dictate range and/or disengage. Or has to be an EAF.


rail DD, try rail incursus lol



... Not sure what you're trying to say, but it's either:

- you think a Rail Incursus will eat the new Cruor
or
- you think a Rail DD is bad.


the first one
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#907 - 2014-02-27 19:39:29 UTC
As a pilot with over 1000 solo kills with a gila and a pilot who has switched to the ishtar due to better bonuses, faster speed, cap stability, and better resists, i can safely say the new bonus mechanic will be problematic in a pvp setting.

For the sake of easy math assume you have a set of 5 drines that do 100 dps. Currently, a gila has a 50% bonus to all drone damage and translates simply to 150 dps.

Post change, two drones will put out a base dps of 40. Multiplied by 300%, this translates to 120, a net loss. In addition, the ishtar carries a tracking, optimal range bonus, and a heavy drone velocity bonus that is rarely utilized in pvp.

Revamping and reimagining shiptypes is great. Understanding drone boat doctines cause server lag and the desire to do something about it is great. Two drones out per ship can and will save a metric fukton of server load, but the ship needs to be viable.

Which brings me to a desire to find a role suitable, viable, and relays the desired outcome. Heavy drones cannot be used in pvp at present. They are too slow and the drone ai turns off the mwd when it actually gets in range, only to fall back out of range over and over. Meanwhile, sentry drones have a dps output that is only marginally lower than heavies and do not have to chase a target down to do damage, only to fall back due to a faulty AI.

The gila could find a niche in drone speed bonuses. Not mwd speed, a raw speed bonus for all drones of at least 50%. Add that with a hefty drone optimal range bonus to compensate the AI being mentally challenged and you'd be a big step in the right direction. Balance the damage outputs, speeds, ehp, and cap stability between droneboats and you could find two distinct flavors of doctrines and pvp viability.

And we all love new and diversified flavors. Or shooting people.

Shooting people makes you a better person.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#908 - 2014-02-27 19:43:39 UTC
LaserzPewPew wrote:
Post change, two drones will put out a base dps of 40. Multiplied by 300%, this translates to 120, a net loss. In addition, the ishtar carries a tracking, optimal range bonus, and a heavy drone velocity bonus that is rarely utilized in pvp.


2 drones with a 300% bonus is a 4x multiplier for 8 effective drones over the previous 7.5.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#909 - 2014-02-27 19:44:01 UTC
LaserzPewPew wrote:


Post change, two drones will put out a base dps of 40. Multiplied by 300%, this translates to 120, a net loss.


Lets take this one more time...

300% bonus = base + 300% of base, or a total of 4x base

This would make 2 drones with 40 dps do 160dps, or 10dps MORE than before.

300% bonus for 2 drones is STRONGER than 50% bonus on 5 drones
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#910 - 2014-02-27 19:50:08 UTC
LaserzPewPew wrote:


For the sake of easy math assume you have a set of 5 drines that do 100 dps. Currently, a gila has a 50% bonus to all drone damage and translates simply to 150 dps.

Post change, two drones will put out a base dps of 40. Multiplied by 300%, this translates to 120, a net loss. In addition, the ishtar carries a tracking, optimal range bonus, and a heavy drone velocity bonus that is rarely utilized in pvp.


Problem 1 - Your maths is wrong.
It's 40dps PLUS 300% bonus on top, for a total of 160dps

Problem 2 - Even if your maths was right, you're still wrong because these changes are for the worm, not the gila.
The devs have already said that the bonuses throughout the line of ships aren't going to be identical. They are going to actually consider what works for the gila, rather than just slap the worm bonuses onto it and hope for the best.

Seriously, why is everybody in this thread going "hurr, you announced some changers for the frigates, so I will assume the exact bonuses will apply to the cruiser and BS" ?
At least wait and see what the actual changes are before you start crying about them for goodness sake...
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#911 - 2014-02-27 19:57:57 UTC
Deeeerp. My mistake on the multiplier. Maff is hard! The original post talks of direction of the entire gurista line. I intended to address the direction of the line of ships.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#912 - 2014-02-27 20:08:37 UTC
LaserzPewPew wrote:
Deeeerp. My mistake on the multiplier. Maff is hard! The original post talks of direction of the entire gurista line. I intended to address the direction of the line of ships.


Yes, and we would like to hear your opinions, which are especially valuable given your experience. But misinterpreting that basic fact colors the rest of your post and probably your impression of the changes. Everyone jumped on your case just because many other persons have made the same misinterpretation.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#913 - 2014-02-27 20:10:09 UTC
If they keep the relative bonus up the ship lines, the bonus for Gila and Rattlesnake should be 500% on 2 drones.

Current Worm: 5 Effective
Future Worm: 8 Effective (160% of Current)

Current Gila: 7.5 Effective
Future Gila: 12 Effective (160% of Current)

This assumes that they choose not to toss the extra damage into the launchers or something. I won't say the proposed changes to the Worm have no bearing on the rest of the shipline, but assuming that they are going to keep the same bonus from level to level despite it being a pretty poor bonus as it moves up the levels is fairly silly.

Honestly, though I hate to see it happen, I would imagine that as they move up the bonus will be restricted to size. The thought of a Gila or Rattlesnake putting out the equivalent of 30 light drones with each drone having the HP of a light tanked cruiser seems...hurtful. This is definitely a case of wait and see.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#914 - 2014-02-27 20:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
LaserzPewPew wrote:
Deeeerp. My mistake on the multiplier. Maff is hard! The original post talks of direction of the entire gurista line. I intended to address the direction of the line of ships.

Regarding the heavy base speed bonus, personally that feels like a bad idea simply due to the fact that near term it only bandages the issues with heavies for one line, which is a terrible solution, and long term, should drone behaviors be fixed, marginalizes the bonus into obsolescence.
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#915 - 2014-02-27 20:15:56 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
If they keep the relative bonus up the ship lines, the bonus for Gila and Rattlesnake should be 500% on 2 drones.

Current Worm: 5 Effective
Future Worm: 8 Effective (160% of Current)

Current Gila: 7.5 Effective
Future Gila: 12 Effective (160% of Current)

This assumes that they choose not to toss the extra damage into the launchers or something. I won't say the proposed changes to the Worm have no bearing on the rest of the shipline, but assuming that they are going to keep the same bonus from level to level despite it being a pretty poor bonus as it moves up the levels is fairly silly.

Honestly, though I hate to see it happen, I would imagine that as they move up the bonus will be restricted to size. The thought of a Gila or Rattlesnake putting out the equivalent of 30 light drones with each drone having the HP of a light tanked cruiser seems...hurtful. This is definitely a case of wait and see.



I imagine that in the 300% role bonus, the ship itself would be restricted to two drones at a time. Otherwise, a set of hammerheads would have a dps output breaking 1200 dps with 3 dda's.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#916 - 2014-02-27 20:21:08 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:


It is not about base speed of hull, it is about actual speed in fight. Simply said: cruor cant use its neuts when kiting, because it is out of range, cruor cant use its neut bonus when webbed and scrammed, because it does not dictate range anymore. So yeah, here go, useless bonus on pirate ship accompanied by two useless highslots on a hull, that doesnt really have optimal layout.

Also why are you even comparing t1 frigs to pirate frig that will most likely cost 100x more? It would look that great compared to daredevil with even stronger web bonus and 385m/s base speed + 820000kg mass, right?



My original statement was to the claim that cruor is slower than any other frigate. I showed that it is not true.

As mentioned earlier comparing cruor speed to othr pirate factions is bit odd as 2 other are racialy about speed, one is about the range control and the last is using capacitor free weapons.

I am not saying that cruor is somehow extra strong compared to other pirate faction frigates. I think it should get neut bonus as well to be able to neut within scram range. But that has nothing to do with his real speed.
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#917 - 2014-02-27 20:27:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
LaserzPewPew wrote:
Deeeerp. My mistake on the multiplier. Maff is hard! The original post talks of direction of the entire gurista line. I intended to address the direction of the line of ships.

Regarding the heavy base speed bonus, personally that feels like a bad idea simply due to the fact that near term it only bandages the issues with heavies for one line, which is a terrible solution, and long term, should drone behaviors be fixed, marginalizes the bonus into obsolescence.


Fixing eve code is going to take an abundant amount of time and is a long way away. Granted, it would be amazing to have a drone check it's base velocity against the target's current before shutting it's mwd off.
RAVENSOME
TerraTroopers
Get Off My Lawn
#918 - 2014-02-27 20:32:50 UTC
I will speak just about the *possible* future change to the rattlesnake as I used to fly it together with domi navy for more than a year.
You write that the guristas ships seem "overshadowed" but in fact there are some differences which make the rattle far better than the domi navy (speaking about PVE).

1- Better tank and better overall DPS (shield tanking allows you to use low slot for damage)
2- Better damage type (you can fit torpedo and drones having the option to switch damage type depending on the faction you combat.

If you change the the bonuses as you plan to do with the worm, the rattle will have a limitation on missile range and missile damage type compared with a possible slightly better drone damage.

Now, the point is not if you nerf it or not, the point is that any pirate ship should be an overall better ship compared to the navy issues as it requires more skills.

Personally I think it is not a great idea what you are planning for Guristas ships and I hope you will consider the fact that actually there are minor but important factors which make the rattle much more efficient than a Domi navy.

Again, I speak by experience, after two years flying a Domi, I can say that the rattlesnake is absolutely perfect as it is and it is absolutely not overshadowed by the domi.

Tks
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#919 - 2014-02-27 20:33:31 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all?

I'm talking about solo and bonus webs do help your fleet. Do you think the Cruor needs to use its neuts on every ship it sees to be effective?



To be better than Hyena YES. Otherwise use the hyena that is faster, locks faster, has MORE web range.... and is cheaper!

It only has to neut some stuff, not everything.



If webbign is your main focus, you are better with a hyena. The ship has a Main focus, on the c ruor case is neuting (if hyena did not exist then yes, could be webbing)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#920 - 2014-02-27 20:39:27 UTC
The fact that CCP gave a frigate an AB speed bonus means that they are officially out of ideas.

Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

55 page discussion which, among other things, highlights the reasons on why an AB speed bonus is a bad idea.

And the problem is not the Succubus in itself, but the fact that this, once again, sets a CCP precedent. Just like the useless AF MWD bonus that eventually became, an even more useless, HAC bonus, this AB bonus will be used as a new "crutch" in future for frigate balancing.