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Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#861 - 2014-02-27 09:22:40 UTC

Silivar Karkun wrote:

something worth to mention is that pirate ships should reflect the doctrines of their NPC versions, never understood why they dont have bonuses for EWAR as the rats do:

-Sanshas:

caldari bonus: tracking disruptors

amarr bonus: laser tracking

role bonus: laser damage

-Blood Raiders:

minmatar bonus: web bonus

amarr bonus: energy drain systems

role bonus: laser damage

-Serpentis:

gallente bonus: sensor dampening

minmatar bonus: hybrid falloff

role bonus: hybrid damage

-Guristas:

gallente bonus: drones

caldari bonus: ECM

role bonus: drones or missiles

-Angels:

minmatar bonus: target painting

gallente bonus: projectile falloff

role bonus: projectile damage

of course this needs to be linked to a balance of EWAR modules cuz there seems to be an issue with the current performance of them.......

LEave PVE out of this.. an that includes NPC.

Sansha NPCS are stilla rmor tanked if you fail to remember!

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#862 - 2014-02-27 09:23:57 UTC

Riot Girl wrote:

Sinooko wrote:

In solo fights it is almost worthless when engaging frigates specialized in missiles, projectiles, and drones. One could argue that the NOS and Neuts would knock out their MWD and Reppers, but in the fast and vicious combat that is frigate PvP it didn't have the lasting power to wait for the enemy's cap to empty out.

How many neuts is that with?

Quote:

In fleet fights it is a highly expensive ship that has to get really close to use its abilities.

I'm not really sure if getting into range to use the neut is the best way to fly it. I'm kinda thinking the idea is to keep people outside of your neut range.

What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all?

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#863 - 2014-02-27 09:25:37 UTC

Kesthely wrote:

First of all the positive feedback:

Succubus: I like the fact that the damage modifier is roled into the role bonus instead of the split between the Caldari and role bonus. It makes more sense to me this way. The new Slot allocation 3 H 4M 3L i think is an improvement as well.
The speed and sig radius changes are nice.

Cruor: I like the destinction of the web bonus compared to the daredevil.

Worm: The increase in drone bay capacity to me always felt like a redundant bonus, i'm glad this one is changed.

Daredevil + Dramiel: I like the fact that they do not get nerfed.

However i do have my concerns with a few of these ships.

Succubus: The Succubus is still going to be abysmally poor for pvp compared to the other faction ships. Compare it to the Cruor, and you get roughly the same dps, slightly higher damage projection, at the loss of insane neut and web bonuses. To the Worm you have a lot less dps, and range, but more importantly alpha, the drones of a worm will be able to do an alpha of over 900 damage while i has the capability of fitting and flying long ranged and completly disrupt your turret range. The increased speed might help catching up, but if its a mwd worm you probably still won't catch up. It is worse in tackling and dps than the Daredevil and lacks the versatility of the dronebay of the Dramiel.

Although you can make a nice kiteing low sig ship out of the succubus, you don't want to spend the price of a faction frigate, for the role that a destroyer can do better.

The Cruor: I think this one is getting overbuffed. with a added drone bay, and extra web range, this will be like a Hyena, but then with more dps, and neut bonuses vs lower web range. Only specialized fleets will require the Hyena, in most cases the cruor will be better due to its flexibility. I don't think the Cruor will outperform the Sentinel, but it will definatly outshine the Dragoon. All in all it feels slightly TO good

Worm: Im concerned of the drone alpha damage it can deliver. The versatility of this one is really good, but i think it will emphasize even stronger how powerfull a drone or missile ship is against a gunship if you use range and a tracking disruptor.

Conclusion:

Really strong improvements on the Cruor and Worm, definatly more then pvp worthy now. I don't think the Succubus is where it needs to be. It lacks the flexibilty of the other faction frigates. Its a one trick pony with no fallbacks or diversity. With a speed thats only marginally faster then a dramiel with Afterburner, and significantly lower then with a mwd i don't think this bonus is going to help the succubus.

Wrong.. Cruor is useless now. REad the other explanations. You cannot use yoru nets because you need to enter enemy web range. and when both are webbed you are SLOWER than any other frigate, therefore unable to reahc your target.

The succubus is by FAR the most powerful of the changes.

Just learn to use them and annalyse them outside a spreadsheet.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Mario Putzo

Likes received: 1,657

#864 - 2014-02-27 09:30:29 UTC

Gypsio III wrote:

IMO the only way to make a Guristas ECM bonus desirable is to give it a huge ECM strength bonus, then limit the ship to a single ECM mod.

If you allowed it to fit any number of ECM mods, then the huge strength bonus would just be OP, so you'd have to have a weaker one, at which point you've just recreated any other ECM boat, which is a total waste of everyone's time.

Or give it bonuses to ECM Bursts. FOF-Rattler fleets with bastioned/triaged drone bunnies! \o/

Because EVE needs 3 ECM BS people won't use because they suck.

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#865 - 2014-02-27 09:31:03 UTC

Silvetica Dian wrote:

CCP Rise wrote:

Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.

Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/

Thanks

Most of us love the new ships designs with just a few people making a ton of noise like always. The missile damage on the worm is a minor component of the dps and is fine. The cruor having a range bonus on the web so that it it can get into neut range is also fine.
These ships all look well thought through and everyone is excited for the changes and actually seeing these ships in combat.

No , the peopel makign the noise funnily enough are the people that are in groups known for using pirate ships. Interestign huh?

The cruor CANNOT uset he web bonus to get into neut range! You web at 26 km.. You start to approach (remember you target range is under 7 km).. when you reach 13 km,, you are also webbed. Suddenly youa re movign SLOWER than your target (because blood raiders simply are VERY slow. Now you are FATED to stay around 10 km from your target. Until you are dead... unable to use your neuts.

Web range works much better on ashimmu because the enemy web range is roughly the range of neuts, so the margin for enemy to exploit this is MUCH smaller. ON the bhaalghorn it works great, because your web range matches the range of your neuts.

At end, these changes are HORRIBLE for the cruor. It becomes just another hyena. One option would make the Cruor have a neut RANGE bonus and leave neut strenght for bhaalghorn. Ashimmu I would be divided... range would be more interestign because it would not clash with the legion for the role of heavy cruiser neut ship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#866 - 2014-02-27 09:32:31 UTC

Mike Whiite wrote:

CCP Rise wrote:

Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

Could you also shine a light on the AB bonus on the succubus, instead of a more Caldari related bonus?

Its by far the best and Most pwoerful bonus that ANY of the pirate shisp recieve bar the serpentis bonus.

Just check what a succubus does with a 10 mn ab!!!! MWD are pathwetically horrible in small scale warfare nowadays because of inties with scrams!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Mario Putzo

Likes received: 1,657

#867 - 2014-02-27 09:36:29 UTC

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

Mike Voidstar wrote:

I am slightly confused as to why someone would hate the bonus given to the Worm based on what might be done to the Rattlesnake, at least with that much vehemence.

The Worm currently puts out 5 effective drones. The change gets it 8 by putting out 2 drones, each with as much or more HP than the hull itself.

Rise already stated its not limited to a 300% bonus, and if that trend is carried foward the Rattlesnake may see 2 drones worth 6 effective drones, each with the HP of the hull, plus bonused launchers.

So what is wrong with the Worm?

Give the worm the regular 10% to damage and you get an effective 7.5 drones any way. The fixed 300% for an effective 8 drones is not that impressive. Especially when you factor in the other Gallente bonuses that allow drones to apply damage sooner (velocity) and land more wrecking shots (tracking). The drones being super tanky is not impressive when drones are pretty much disposable and are more often abandoned than destroyed.

I am sure the idea is to trial a ship bonus that reduces drone numbers. So events like HED-GP Do not happen in the future. Reducing drones has to be part of the game moving forward because they have once again become the largest strain on the server during fleet flights (thanks CFC.)

There is nothing wrong with giving this ship a massive drone bonus and reducing the number of drones it can field. Unless someone wants to willingly cause server lag to force CCP to make a kneejerk change to a decade old system that was never an issue before.

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#868 - 2014-02-27 09:42:50 UTC | Edited by: Kagura Nikon

Itago Gemulus wrote:

Ill say it again, 90% are to strong, and 20% web range is to weak.

When comparing these, 90% web = 4-5x 60% webs. What other modules get these bonuses (even the new worm drone bonuses are not that strong)

20% web range make very little diffrence, make it 30% as recon ships get or stronger. Even at 50%/level i would likely take current web strenght if i could choose

You realize your nonsense? What would help to have a web range larger than your lock range? This is not the ashimmu, its a FRIGATE! witht he proposed bonus it can already web over 30 km with links or faction web. 50% per level would mean like 50 km!!!! Cruor cannot even lock a target that far!

Peopel need to stop ananlysign the ships on a spreadsheet!!!

Think in combat how the bonuses would affect the combat!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#869 - 2014-02-27 09:45:26 UTC

Mario Putzo wrote:

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

Mike Voidstar wrote:

It makes a huge difference on ewar bous and repair bonus department.

It woudl not make a difference if the drone bonus sould apply to the effect of ALL types of drone

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Tyberius Franklin

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,014

#870 - 2014-02-27 10:13:57 UTC | Edited by: Tyberius Franklin

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

Mike Voidstar wrote:

As others have already pointed out, the Guristas are already "unique" in being shield tanked drone boats. All they really need is there drone bonuses changed to be more in line with the recent changes to the Gallente ships. Like the tracking, range, and velocity bonuses that have been added.

Give the worm the regular 10% to damage and you get an effective 7.5 drones any way. The fixed 300% for an effective 8 drones is not that impressive. Especially when you factor in the other Gallente bonuses that allow drones to apply damage sooner (velocity) and land more wrecking shots (tracking). The drones being super tanky is not impressive when drones are pretty much disposable and are more often abandoned than destroyed.

If anything on the Guristas ships should be given such a complete over haul, it would be the missile bonuses. I'll admit that I'm biased. I use all the Guristas ships and _never_ fit any missiles on them. Split weapons suck, and CCP did a good job of sticking to that fact when rebalancing the T1 ships. Guristas can stay unique with the shield resists for defense, drones for damage, and the hull bonus should go to some other utility like ECM or scram range or remote reps.

Maybe this is just me, but I really hope for something out of this other than the RS being a shield domi. The idea present is novel and while the bonus isn't much over the standard bonus, one must consider that at the frigate level that bonus is anything but standard. The ishkur, tristan astero, and current worm have 5 drones with no damage bonus, making the proposed worm's damage potential with it's drones comparatively huge.

If it remains the same at higher levels, sure, there is room for complaint, but I'll wait to see, then call foul.

Regarding other bonuses, I loathe ECM and it seems like a waste of a pirate hull and RR seems like just a shield mirror of the nestor. Really, even if you went with the domi bonuses wouldn't that have to bump the hull bonus anyways since youd be retaining the damage and shield bonus?

Gypsio III

Questionable Ethics.

Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork

Likes received: 1,264

#871 - 2014-02-27 11:01:54 UTC

There's nothing unique about being a shield-tanked droneboat, at least not in any fashion that matters. When people talk about uniqueness and priate factions, they mean super neuts/webs or extreme mobility. One of the problems with the current Guristas (and Sansha!) ships is that they're just generic tank 'n' gank ships, that they offer nothing that other ships don't also offer. So the current proposal is worrying because it's just more of the same. The super drones are fun, but they have no really useful intrinsic ability, although when we get up to the Rattler, the volley damage of a cluster of assigned sentries might be a bit fun.

Having said all that, it doesn't necessarily follow that a pirate ship absolutely needs a "special" ability. If the gank 'n' tank stats are powerful enough, it can still be desirable and of similar value to its counterparts. I don't know whether the proposed Worm is that ship, and we know nothing about the Gila and Rattler. So I don't really know what point I'm trying to make here... Ugh

Anyway, if we don't need another ECM BS, another idea for a Guristas bonus is a bonus to all ewar strength, giving you the ability to fit TDs, RSDs, ECM or painters as desired.

Also, let pirates get the most from pirate ships! Give all pirate ships a fourth bonus that is dependent on security status and hence only available to outlaws. If you're -10 you get the full strength bonus, if you're above -5 you get nothing. Disclaimer - I'm not an outlaw.

Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0
Sway M4G Caldari Provisions Caldari State Likes received: 0	#872 - 2014-02-27 11:08:21 UTC Im seriously looking forward to the ashimuu web range buff it will be feared so much more!


Kagura Nikon Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic Likes received: 2,148	#873 - 2014-02-27 11:52:55 UTC Sway M4G wrote: Im seriously looking forward to the ashimuu web range buff it will be feared so much more! depend on how much they fizzle with the hull itself. If they correct they UBER slow behavior and hard to fit issues then yes.... "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Medalyn Isis

Doomheim

Likes received: 472

#874 - 2014-02-27 11:55:19 UTC

I think that giving Sansha ships an afterburner bonus is going to be horribly out of place. It seems as though it was just a case of, "we don't know what to do to make these ships better at pvp, so lets just throw an afterburner on it", not considering all the more suitable Caldari options available. Making the Caldari skill give an afterburner bonus, (Caldari, renown for the slowest ships in the universe), makes very little sense.

The high tech Sansha's should have a more ingenious solution, just stick a bigger rocket pack on the back and make it go faster is something the Minmatar would do, not Sansha.

Therefore I was thinking over a few different options. A shield resistance bonus instead would be nice, but would not scale well with the Nightmare getting the largest buff and the succubus getting relatively little. Also Sansha ships need a bonus which will make them more interesting to be used in PVP. For this reason I believe a ECM drone bonus would be much better placed.

An ECM drone bonus would offer something unique, and it also fits in with the lore as Caldari use ECM, Sansha are known for using jammers, and Amarr use drones as their secondary weapon system these days.

After running a few numbers on how to balance the ECM drones effectively, (as doubling the effectiveness of the ECM drones jamming capability is a much greater boost than simply doubling the amount of drones), I find that a 10% bonus per level would offer a good balance. In return I took down the tracking speed bonus slightly.

As a rough draft the ships could look something like this;

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage & tracking speed per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to ECM Drone sensor jamming strength per level

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20m3 (+20m3) / 20m3 (+20m3)

PHANTASM

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage & tracking speed per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to ECM Drone sensor jamming strength per level

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40m3 (+25m3) / 40m3 (+25m3)

NIGHTARE

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage & tracking speed per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to ECM Drone sensor jamming strength per level

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100m3 (+25m3) / 100m3 (+25m3)

Being able to field 4 drones of the ship classes maximum size makes a lot of sense, if you drop it to 3 or less then it will always be more beneficial for the ship to field a maximum flight of lower sized drones. Having 4 means that there are options to field smaller drones, although to get the maximum jamming ability you will need to field the largest drone size possible.

In summary I think this would make Sansha ships a lot more interesting, and would make them all very effective in pvp, whilst leaving the nightmare relatively unchanged in PVE. It would also have the benefit of fitting in with the current lore.

I would be grateful for any thoughts or opinions on these proposals.

Naomi Anthar

Likes received: 387

#875 - 2014-02-27 13:10:36 UTC

Medalyn Isis

I will be honest i think everything you proposed sounds horrible to me.

I will explain why.

First of all you reduce tracking bonus from 7.5% to 5% ? WTF this ship needs no single nerf in first place. Lasers track like ****. It should be more 10% per level or 12,5%. Unless you want to nerf this "overused" succubus hull even harder.

Next thing ECM bonus - you know what ? That is blant and dull bonus you try to throw in. Sansha got nothing in common with ECM , other than that they are somehow connected to Caldari. Sansha is described as good with TD and neutralizers(yes really thats why they used to have so many utility highs).
But i don't want ewar bonus on this ship. It's not mandatory - look angel ships - especially cyna and mach , do they need ewar to be popular ships ?

DEVs did really great job to give this ship COMPLETLY unique bonus that is going to make it powerful.
GJ CCP on succubus, tho i don't like that you gimp it's pwg/cpu - it should be best among all - especially that it's lasers + shields... that eats lot of cpu and pwg.

Another thing you mentioned was adding drones ... listen not every hull must be full of those little buggers.
I really don't like how dull and old solution it is. Just throw in some drones and here you go... cmon you can sure actually think about something out there.

And another thing CCP - don't be afraid of those buffs, you can fix this after if things go out of control.(and even if it does hell they deserve to be "feared" - read succubus description). But Succubus/Worm/Cruor needs massive buffs. They were useless for years. And they should be best among all frigs along with daredevil and dramiel (it's lacking tbh).

Tactical Farmers. Pandemic Horde 180
Shade Millith Tactical Farmers. Pandemic Horde Likes received: 180	#876 - 2014-02-27 13:11:44 UTC I'm kind of sad that the Succubus is losing a highslot. Duel NOS was a pretty powerful tool against neuting. But that AB bonus!

Naomi Anthar

Likes received: 387

#877 - 2014-02-27 13:16:39 UTC

Shade Millith wrote:

I'm kind of sad that the Succubus is losing a highslot. Duel NOS was a pretty powerful tool against neuting.

But that AB bonus!

Man i would give away 2nd utility high without hesitation on this ship for mid or low.
The worst part about succubus is it slot layout atm ;).

Cruor suffers from same problem , but you kinda cannot help it too much. Removing utility high ... ? When you got bonus. Yeah exactly but it cannot get decent tank in lows and mids are stuck with prop/point/web combo forever. Unless you use some gimp 2x web or cap booster/web for gang combo.

All in all even on cruor i would drop one utility high for low ... but that is just my PoV.

Medalyn Isis

Doomheim

Likes received: 472

#878 - 2014-02-27 13:20:41 UTC | Edited by: Medalyn Isis

Naomi Anthar wrote:

post

I see your point about the tracking bonus, that could certainly be altered. I just felt adding an ECM drone bonus was quite powerful, and so perhaps tracking could be sacrificed slightly as then at least ships would have some method to counter if the Sansha ships are not using enough webs.

Regarding the ECM drones bonus, I feel like sticking an afterburner on is a little more generic. I don't dislike the bonus, although it just feel out of place on sansha ships, and would be much better placed on the blood raider ships. (swap the web bonus with an afterburner bonus, low sig armour tanking ship with afterburner bonus makes a lot more sense).

Also, Sansha do have links with Caldari and Amarr, so ECM and drones do make a lot more sense that an afterburner bonus. Also look at the Revenant, it has massively bonused drones, so Sansha obviously know what they are doing when it comes to drone warfare. This could be reflected across their whole class of ships.

Naomi Anthar

Likes received: 387

#879 - 2014-02-27 13:34:43 UTC

Medalyn Isis wrote:

Naomi Anthar wrote:

post

Going that direction we can say all races are drone based friend ;).

Hel and Nidhogur , wyvern and chimera ;).
Revenant is more like ... mothership of Sansha nation. A unique vessel not concept for entire faction.
Afterburner sure sounds innovative for Sansha, but you know what ? It's cool not everything needs to be 4% shield resist per level or flat damage bonus etc.

I think you should wait for test servers to check out if you like that boat. I usually don't go on test servers. But this time i'm really curious.

You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3,946
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack Likes received: 3,946	#880 - 2014-02-27 14:36:00 UTC Kagura Nikon wrote: What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all? I'm talking about solo and bonus webs do help your fleet. Do you think the Cruor needs to use its neuts on every ship it sees to be effective? Oh god.

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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Questionable Ethics.

Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Doomheim

Tactical Farmers.

Pandemic Horde

You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack