These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#541 - 2014-02-26 00:05:36 UTC
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.

The Tears Must Flow
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#542 - 2014-02-26 00:08:30 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Ignore the worm's damage bonus to missiles. I mean seriously. It does not have it now, it's not hurting you to have it later... there is no need for the hate. CCP obviously likes the specific damage bonuses on missles, its only a few missile ships that get ROF instead of a Kin or Exp bonus.

This has happened before. Swarms of drones caused issues, and now we have bandwidth and drone limits. Get over it. This is probably just a proof of concept to do this more globally. Honestly at some point I expect the dronebay to turn into some kind of weird fitting screen where drone 'modules' get installed, and drones themselves become purely client side graphic effects that basically behave ship turrets with an AI control option.


Then why not just remove drones from the game and be done with it? ........

The Worm should remain a 5/10 drone shield tanked ship. It's currently a fun ship to fly, don't ruin it.

The Tears Must Flow
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#543 - 2014-02-26 00:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Vaju Enki wrote:
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.


But after the changes come Worm will remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 8/20 scout drones(Gallente). What is the unfun part about the balancing pass you keep talking about?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#544 - 2014-02-26 00:10:18 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.

Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#545 - 2014-02-26 00:11:19 UTC
the ship will be harder if not impossible to gank due to its big pair of insane drones...... (?)
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#546 - 2014-02-26 00:12:14 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.

Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives.


5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.

The Tears Must Flow
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#547 - 2014-02-26 00:13:15 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.

Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives.


drones are meant to be lost in combat, its the tradeoff of their functionality if you get jammed they still attack the enemy, they work as the weapon and as the ammo,
Tarithell
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#548 - 2014-02-26 00:13:25 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these"


Clearly the tears about drone assist mechanics in the other threads wasent enough and you had to bring that sh*t here too wow.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#549 - 2014-02-26 00:14:06 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.


This is based on ? just what its currently i assume, after gila/rs changes it might be just as natural.

Looking at missions and all that stuff, Guristas never field drones, and Sansha is armor tanked (look where slave set comes from). Nothing is set in stone for what ecch faction "prefer" to use.

I agree that a drone based bonus from Gallente skill would be natural, but again we have that strong role bonus for drones.
Change the missile dmg for drone tracking or something like that if people cry to much about the current bonus :P
Methonash Qorranto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#550 - 2014-02-26 00:15:27 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:

5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.


CCP please pimp my [remaining] drones <3
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#551 - 2014-02-26 00:15:53 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.


But after the changes come Worm will remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 8/20 scout drones(Gallente). What is the unfun part about the balancing pass you keep talking about?


That's a 10/25 ship with overpowered drones, not a 40/100 with normal drones....

The current Worm is fun to fly because it's a shield tanked frigate with 5 drones in space (5 spare).

The Tears Must Flow
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#552 - 2014-02-26 00:16:03 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:
and i was expecting to get a rattlesnake for my missions, guess i'll have to save for a nestor instead....if not a nightmare.....


Why would you bother? With the current state of the AI, unless you bring friends into your missions the rats have got a serious case of the munchies and a love of sweet, sweet drone snacks.

On the other hand, looking at some stats real quick, a Warden with my middling skills and the 300% bonus would be something like:

Shield: 5528
Armor: 2576
Structure: 8292

That's gonna take the rats a few shots to kill...
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#553 - 2014-02-26 00:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
Vaju Enki wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.

Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives.


5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.


allow the ship to have an upper lvl flight of drones, worm: 5 lights or 5 meds, gila (as it does right now): 5 mediums, 5 lights and even 5 heavies/sentries, Rattlesnake: 5 lights, medium, heavies or sentries......

this can be achieved by just doubling the dronebay and the bandwidth of the worm, so its 50/50, no need change its missile bonuses, maybe give it a bonus of tracking and speed so you dont have to put aditional modules or buff its missile capabilities by giving it a 25% damage bonus to missiles, not really much of a buff......
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#554 - 2014-02-26 00:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Aglais
I see what you are doing with the Worm.

I strongly approve, though I found the methods a little unconventional. I am very eager to see how my favourite frigate performs on the test server, no doubt I'll find even more uses for it.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#555 - 2014-02-26 00:18:48 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.
You just made the 2/5 sound more attractive to me.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#556 - 2014-02-26 00:20:21 UTC
I like these changes in general, but I'm pretty meh on the Sansha changes.

For starters, the Succubus and the Phantasm both have pretty harsh cap problems in my experience. I saw a buff to the Succubus's cap, but I'm not sure it'll be enough.

Also, echoing what some others have said in this thread, we already have fast and hard to hit frigs in the form of the daredevil and the dramiel, I'm not sure making Sansha a set of shield-tanking laser angels is really using the whole thing to its full potential.

Have you considered something a little more out there, like maybe giving them bonuses that make you want to tinker tank them and rock some badass local reps? That would be really interesting and fit with the flavor of their lore.

Just a thought.

I want more excuses to fly boats with spikes on them.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#557 - 2014-02-26 00:23:28 UTC
Aglais wrote:
What the balls are you doing to the Worm? What role is it filling? 50% damage bonus to TWO launchers?!

What happened? You all did spectacular on T1 frigates, you made T1 cruisers across the board useable. What changed at battlecruisers? Why didn't anyone notice the change at battleships? Why all of this super experimental crap? Why? Look, if you want Gurista ships to also bother with fitting missiles- you're going to need to give them at least one more launcher across the board, in addition to a damage bonus like that. Either that, or bump up that to a 100-125% damage bonus to these two damage types with two launchers, or 75%, or SOMETHING. Literally the only change I agree with for the Worm is the addition of PG and CPU- that'll at least open up new sorts of fits.


this
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#558 - 2014-02-26 00:23:51 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
To anybody complaining about the Worm.

Stop.


Full stop.

Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:

Augmented Warriors

Shield -464 (dd5 580)
Armor -692 (dd5 865)
Structure -1040 (dd5 1300)

2196 (dd5 2745) total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.(skills will bring this to 30/50 at max)

Republic Fleet Warriors

Shield -616 (dd5 770)
Armor -920 (dd5 1150)
Structure-576 (dd5 720)

2112 (dd5 2640) Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds. (Skills will bring this up to 75 at max)


Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.

He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).

You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).

Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.

EDIT: Drone Durability 5 will raise those totals by about 500 each, Damage totals will also go up 25% more as well


Am I just completely math-tarded (totally a possibility) or is a 300% (or 3x) multiplier to drone damage applied to two drones the equivalent of six un-bonused drones, not 8?

IDK if I'm just doing it wrong, but I get 6x unbonused drones' worth of DPS from the Worm's two drones vs 6.25x un-bonused drones' worth of damage from a 5-drone ship with a 5%/level (25%) damage bonus. How are you getting your 8 drones' worth of damage?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#559 - 2014-02-26 00:24:18 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.

The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.

Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives.


5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.


allow the ship to have an upper lvl flight of drones, worm: 5 lights or 5 meds, gila (as it does right now): 5 mediums, 5 lights and even 5 heavies/sentries, Rattlesnake: 5 lights, medium, heavies or sentries......

this can be achieved by just doubling the dronebay and the bandwidth of the worm, so its 50/50, no need change its missile bonuses, maybe give it a bonus of tracking and speed so you dont have to put aditional modules or buff its missile capabilities by giving it a 25% damage bonus to missiles, not really much of a buff......



Congratulations. You have just won my coveted most annoying poster of the day award.

Seriously... 2 drones is happening. If you consider the proposal a nerf, lube up and prepare to take it like a man.

The proposal improves the DPS of the ship in every way possible while costing it nothing but a bit of missile range that it didn't need. There is nothing in the new stats worthy of this much histrionic fit throwing.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#560 - 2014-02-26 00:26:52 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
To anybody complaining about the Worm.

Stop.


Full stop.

Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:

Augmented Warriors

Shield -464 (dd5 580)
Armor -692 (dd5 865)
Structure -1040 (dd5 1300)

2196 (dd5 2745) total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.(skills will bring this to 30/50 at max)

Republic Fleet Warriors

Shield -616 (dd5 770)
Armor -920 (dd5 1150)
Structure-576 (dd5 720)

2112 (dd5 2640) Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds. (Skills will bring this up to 75 at max)


Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.

He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).

You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).

Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.

EDIT: Drone Durability 5 will raise those totals by about 500 each, Damage totals will also go up 25% more as well


Am I just completely math-tarded (totally a possibility) or is a 300% (or 3x) multiplier to drone damage applied to two drones the equivalent of six un-bonused drones, not 8?

IDK if I'm just doing it wrong, but I get 6x unbonused drones' worth of DPS from the Worm's two drones vs 6.25x un-bonused drones' worth of damage from a 5-drone ship with a 5%/level (25%) damage bonus. How are you getting your 8 drones' worth of damage?


It's a bonus, so your math is off by the first 100% that is the base drones themselves. Drones 100%+Bonus 300%= Total effective drones 400%