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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#481 - 2014-02-25 22:30:59 UTC
Overall, I like the changes to the Worm, and hopefully it'll be a lot more fun to fly. Managing fewer drones with more HP has some advantages/disadvantages. Definitely easier to keep them alive rather than having to recall/swap all the time. But it also makes it possible to EWAR the drones to neutralize the ship's effectiveness easier, since there are less of them. I don't know how viable this actually is, but something I wanted to point out.

CCP Rise wrote:
And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places.


I really don't like the pidgeonholing of the damage type for the missiles to Kinetic/Thermal. Missiles aren't blasters, and Guristas aren't Gallente. I would really like to get away from damage specific bonuses for missiles so they can actually use their versatility of being able to change damage types properly. CCP Rise please stop doing this to missile boats, and give the Worm a generic rate of fire or damage bonus.
CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
#482 - 2014-02-25 22:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: CompleteFailure
Django Flagg wrote:

With the introduction of the Sisters covering Gallente Amarr, we still don't have Minmatar-Caldari skill bonused pirate line.


See Rise's post immediately before yours:

CCP Rise wrote:

  • We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.


    • My guess is the missile-based pirate faction he's hinting at here would be Caldari-Minmatar. It ought to be, anyway.
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #483 - 2014-02-25 22:33:45 UTC
    Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).

    I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.

    Good experiment, let's try it.

    I'd like a 3rd launcher on the worm honestly. It's something to consider.

    But the way they have the drones setup now? Fine. Don't change it back to its old swarm of 5 weak light drones.

    Yaay!!!!
    Mike Voidstar
    Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
    #484 - 2014-02-25 22:35:11 UTC
    Part of it is cutting the drones on field. Leaving it at 5 drones does not do this.

    Keep in mind that no other frigate gets a drone damage bonus, and only recently did we see frigates with 5 light drones except for T2 and Pirate. They got weird bay bonus, or that newish drone tracking bonus.

    Its also not all about PvP. The boost to drones will also help with the survivability of drones in general. Since the AI change doing PvE with drones has been downright painful. Drones are not ammo, and should not be expended as such. Not only will they have more HP to deal with AI aggroing them constantly, but with the huge boost to their shield HP they will recover faster, and for some playstyles mounting remote repair to help your drones becomes a lot more feasible.

    It opens them to more effective direct counters like ewar, but it also restores some rarely considered drawbacks like remote assistance too. I dont know how useful that might be, probably not much, but it opens a door.

    It is unlikely that making a bunch of noise and spewing alternate build after alternate build in an ever sillier spiral of goofyness will get you anywhere. Consider why the change is on the table, and argue for or against it with a clear understanding and goal.
    Aquila Sagitta
    Blue-Fire
    #485 - 2014-02-25 22:38:20 UTC
    Wasn't old nos op as ****? Hence being nerfed

    Blue-Fire Best Fire
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #486 - 2014-02-25 22:39:09 UTC
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).

    I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.




    8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting.
    Riot Girl
    You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
    #487 - 2014-02-25 22:39:14 UTC
    PinkKnife wrote:
    JEFFRAIDER wrote:
    The Cruor is a bit of a mess considering how the web range bonus doesn't synergize wtih the nos amount bonus. How about weakening the web range bonus, keeping the nos strength bonus and adding in a nos range bonus? Whatever the numbers work out to for the Cruor to be able to web with a meta 4 web no bonus no heat to about 18km and the nos going say 22km? Seems like it gives it a nice fun role to be an outside scram range fighter without being super OP.


    This is why I like the idea of the bonus to Neut drones. It removes the aspect of neut range and allows you to kite out to your hearts content.


    With 28km web range cold, you can already kite to your heart's content. The bonus to neuting power allows you to cap out a blaster frig pretty much instantly.

    Oh god.
    Mike Voidstar
    Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
    #488 - 2014-02-25 22:39:39 UTC
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).

    I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.

    Good experiment, let's try it.

    I'd like a 3rd launcher on the worm honestly. It's something to consider.

    But the way they have the drones setup now? Fine. Don't change it back to its old swarm of 5 weak light drones.


    The only misgiving I have about this is that I spent a week (I think, it was a long, long time ago) training to be able to field that 5th drone, and that training was required for me to be able to do almost anything else with drones. If they are going to move foward with another round of fewer, bigger, better drones then that skill better get a useful bonus put on it.
    Silivar Karkun
    Doomheim
    #489 - 2014-02-25 22:40:29 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:


    I'm not understanding what you're not liking about these bonuses, I feel like there's something you're not understanding.



    1. its pigeonholing the ship to use only two missile types, its like if they changed the missiles for hybrids pffff in that case they should add two turret hardpoints or change the bonus for hybrids and make them basically shield versions of gallente droneboats

    2. 300% for drones is both absurd in lore explanation and in real aplication, 6 drones compressed in 2 only, bad idea, if you loose those 2 drones you practically loose a bit chunk of your DPS no matter if you can replace them, it makes more sense to have the normal 5 and enhance them all together.
    Bertrand Butler
    Cras es Noster
    #490 - 2014-02-25 22:43:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
    Guys, do you understand that with this change a worm will do 163DPS before DDAs with 2 RF Warriors that with a durability rig (nice 20CPU increase there Rise) will each have 3.3k HP before resists?

    Silivar Karkun wrote:


    2. 300% for drones is both absurd in lore explanation and in real aplication, 6 drones compressed in 2 only, bad idea, if you loose those 2 drones you practically loose a bit chunk of your DPS no matter if you can replace them, it makes more sense to have the normal 5 and enhance them all together.


    Silivar Karkun you are an idiot. The fact that you have been posting for hours now without even understanding the bonus at hand (400% damage and HP overall per drone) is enough to illustrate that...
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #491 - 2014-02-25 22:44:49 UTC
    Bertrand Butler wrote:
    RF Warriors


    why would you do that
    Mike Voidstar
    Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
    #492 - 2014-02-25 22:45:07 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).

    I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.




    8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting.




    Eventually drones themselves will get a real balance pass. God knows they have needed it for years, more with recent AI changes, drones on every hull and new drone focused ships being introduced.

    If they wind up reducing drone numbers this way they should probably look at making drones actually immune or at least highly resistant to ewar. Its one of their few advantages and drones pay a very steep price for their power in the form of destructibility.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #493 - 2014-02-25 22:47:38 UTC
    Mike Voidstar wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).

    I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.




    8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting.




    Eventually drones themselves will get a real balance pass. God knows they have needed it for years, more with recent AI changes, drones on every hull and new drone focused ships being introduced.

    If they wind up reducing drone numbers this way they should probably look at making drones actually immune or at least highly resistant to ewar. Its one of their few advantages and drones pay a very steep price for their power in the form of destructibility.


    it's never going to happen. CCP see that people are using lots of sentries for blobbing, and take it to mean that combat drones are fine.
    Bertrand Butler
    Cras es Noster
    #494 - 2014-02-25 22:48:12 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Bertrand Butler wrote:
    RF Warriors


    why would you do that


    I already do in an Algos, with great effect I might add.
    Silivar Karkun
    Doomheim
    #495 - 2014-02-25 22:49:43 UTC
    i'd prefer to see a bonus to field more than 5 drones thant be limited to 2 drones making the work of 4 each one.......and not have a gimped bandwidth and be forced to 2 damage types in missiles just to be efective....
    Grath Telkin
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #496 - 2014-02-25 22:51:10 UTC
    Silivar Karkun wrote:


    2. 300% for drones is both absurd in lore explanation and in real aplication, 6 drones compressed in 2 only, bad idea, if you loose those 2 drones you practically loose a bit chunk of your DPS no matter if you can replace them, it makes more sense to have the normal 5 and enhance them all together.


    Right so you can only poop out 2 of your 5, and if somebody takes the time to kill one of your two they've chewed through another frigate just getting through one.

    Like Frig vs Frig, killing a worms drone is going to be an actual feat of strength, and if its a cruiser you have tackled, forget it he's done he'll never get the damn drones down in time because its a tiny little thing orbiting him taking almost no damage from his cruiser sized weapons.

    Now, you would have a thing here if they weren't getting herculean hit points, the change at that point would indeed suck but as each singular drone has more hp than a full flight of lights I think you might be a bit off on this one.

    Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #497 - 2014-02-25 22:51:41 UTC
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit...
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Role Bonus:
    300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints

    ... which just seems icky.

    I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics.

    I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted.



    I'm pretty sure the main idea was to call your drones *tom&jerry* or *stan&oliver*
    Buckethead bot
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #498 - 2014-02-25 22:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Buckethead bot
    Cruor really need 1 more lows slot, he cant get even some average dps/tank combination.
    Also it could be nice idea to give him some crazy bonus to a small neuting drones capacitor draining, and 25 bandwith
    Kane Fenris
    NWP
    #499 - 2014-02-25 22:53:46 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hey guys,

    We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.

    Thank you for your cooperation citizens.



    the worm still sucks !!!!!!!!11
    Mike Voidstar
    Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
    #500 - 2014-02-25 22:54:10 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Mike Voidstar wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).

    I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.




    8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting.




    Eventually drones themselves will get a real balance pass. God knows they have needed it for years, more with recent AI changes, drones on every hull and new drone focused ships being introduced.

    If they wind up reducing drone numbers this way they should probably look at making drones actually immune or at least highly resistant to ewar. Its one of their few advantages and drones pay a very steep price for their power in the form of destructibility.


    it's never going to happen. CCP see that people are using lots of sentries for blobbing, and take it to mean that combat drones are fine.


    Yes, but part of why its effective is because using ewar on drones does not get you very far. It takes 6 times the effort to neuter a drone ship completely compared to a turret ship. Drones pay a high price for this, and diluting it by half will require a serious look at drones going foward. Right now its just one ship line, no need to panic... But its something to watch for given the lack of attention drones have gotten over the years.