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Missile slots and RHML bonus for the Naga
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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-02-24 21:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Many people who were watching the initial release of the naga saw that they were giving it equal viability with missiles as they did with hybrids; 10% range boost to both. I could see a compromise to what you're talking about would to just give it 8 unbonused missile slots, so we can be silly and fit cruise missile launchers on it and kite fleets at 150km out, laughing maniacally as we watch our alpha blast through lightly tanked cruisers. :D
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#22 - 2014-02-24 21:39:08 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there, even with several fitting mods. Only one without fitting mods, and it's entirely unbonused for a grand total of 88 DPS on a Gnosis. Fitting one or two useless unbonused oversized weapons on one hull is a terrible argument for being able to fit 8 bonused launchers on a same sized hull.
This sort of argument only hurts your own case.

B: And they are both Large Hybrid Guns. Note the emphasis? They are not missiles, and while they are better at tracking than 425's, that does not make them specialized anti-cruiser/frig weapons like Rapid Missiles.

A. Run the numbers - you can fit 3 RHMLs on a Gnosis quite easily. And you're incorrect, as the Gnosis gets a +25% damage bonus to heavy missiles - so that's equivalent to 4 RHMLs. My point was not that you should or that it's advisable, but merely that you can.

B. Rapid heavy launchers are HEAVY missile weapons. Note the emphasis? And would you please stop referring to RHMLs as "anti-frigate" weapons? No one in their right mind uses heavy missiles against frigates.

C. If you want to talk about an anti-frigate missile platform, may I direct you to a RLML-equipped Drake?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-02-24 21:40:53 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there, even with several fitting mods. Only one without fitting mods, and it's entirely unbonused for a grand total of 88 DPS on a Gnosis. Fitting one or two useless unbonused oversized weapons on one hull is a terrible argument for being able to fit 8 bonused launchers on a same sized hull.
This sort of argument only hurts your own case.

B: And they are both Large Hybrid Guns. Note the emphasis? They are not missiles, and while they are better at tracking than 425's, that does not make them specialized anti-cruiser/frig weapons like Rapid Missiles.

A. Run the numbers - you can fit 3 RHMLs on a Gnosis quite easily. And you're incorrect, as the Gnosis gets a +25% damage bonus to heavy missiles - so that's equivalent to 4 RHMLs. My point was not that you should or that it's advisable, but merely that you can.

B. Rapid heavy launchers are HEAVY missile weapons. Note the emphasis? And would you please stop referring to RHMLs as "anti-frigate" weapons? No one in their right mind uses heavy missiles against frigates.

C. If you want to talk about an anti-frigate missile platform, may I direct you to a RLML-equipped Drake?


Drake could use kin damage bonus to rapid lights...
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#24 - 2014-02-24 21:40:58 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

A. Not true. Gnosis and Prophecy can fit 2-3 RHMLs.
B. Also not true. Dual 250mm and 350mm guns receive the same bonuses on the Naga and Talos.


A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there, even with several fitting mods. Only one without fitting mods, and it's entirely unbonused for a grand total of 88 DPS on a Gnosis. Fitting one or two useless unbonused oversized weapons on one hull is a terrible argument for being able to fit 8 bonused launchers on a same sized hull.
This sort of argument only hurts your own case.

B: And they are both Large Hybrid Guns. Note the emphasis? They are not missiles, and while they are better at tracking than 425's, that does not make them specialized anti-cruiser/frig weapons like Rapid Missiles.


There are no other non-BS ship beside Tornado that can equip Large projectile Turret, same for Energy weapon with Oracle so what is exactly your argument here?

in fact, if we change Naga to Missile, Talos would be only non BS ship that can equip large Hybrid.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#25 - 2014-02-24 21:43:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Drake could use kin damage bonus to rapid lights...

Yeah, the lack of consistency when it comes to rapid launcher-specific bonuses leaves something to be desired (and not limited to just the Drake).

unidenify wrote:
There are no other non-BS ship beside Tornado that can equip Large projectile Turret, same for Energy weapon with Oracle so what is exactly your argument here?

in fact, if we change Naga to Missile, Talos would be only non BS ship that can equip large Hybrid.

And I see no problem with that. In fact, the Naga is somewhat of an anomaly considering the dominant nature of missiles in Caldari ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#26 - 2014-02-24 22:05:15 UTC
unidenify wrote:


There are no other non-BS ship beside Tornado that can equip Large projectile Turret, same for Energy weapon with Oracle so what is exactly your argument here?

in fact, if we change Naga to Missile, Talos would be only non BS ship that can equip large Hybrid.


All large guns, regardless of race, have to operate under the same general principles of optimal/falloff/tracking/ gun and target signature radius. They may have moderately differing stats in regards to optimal, falloff, tracking speed, and damage types, but they still need to follow the combat guidelines of large turrets.

Missiles on the other hand do not. They follow differing rules that permit them to damage targets under the tracking of large guns more effectively, and Naga would be the only one capable of using them effectively on a BC or lower hull.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:


B. Rapid heavy launchers are HEAVY missile weapons. Note the emphasis? And would you please stop referring to RHMLs as "anti-frigate" weapons? No one in their right mind uses heavy missiles against frigates.

C. If you want to talk about an anti-frigate missile platform, may I direct you to a RLML-equipped Drake?


Lets suppose that Naga gets a 5% per level damage bonus to these RHML's. Probably a decent assumption. Let's also assume that it get's no bonuses to explosion velocity, explosion radius, or missile velocity. (probably unlikely)

8 launchers * 1.25 = 10 effective launchers.

Now can anyone guess how well a 10 effective launcher Naga packing Precision missiles while using one or more TP's and 2 Rigor Catalysts + a Flare Catalyst will do against non interceptor Frigates? A good benchmark is roughly 700 DPS with Precisions for such a ship using a double BCS fit.

The answer is damn well. Interceptors will still kite it easily, but a good interceptor can kite Warrior II's, so that's a bad benchmark.
Anything less is liekly to be chewed up and spat out in short order.

If it's not a Frig, load Fury and unload 900-1k DPS of tracking immune missiles into the cruiser, reducing it to wreckage in short order.

TLDR: RHML's can be be very potent against frigs and cruisers as long as the naga fits a TP and application rigs.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#27 - 2014-02-24 22:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

And I see no problem with that. In fact, the Naga is somewhat of an anomaly considering the dominant nature of missiles in Caldari ships.



You mean besides Rail/blaster Ferox, Rohk, Tengu, Eagle, Moa, Vulture, Cormorant, Merlin, Raptor, Harpy, and probably several others I can't name off the top of my head?

Edit: Missiles for caldari is mostly a myth in PvP. The large majority of Caldari ships in PvP are either Rail boats or ECM focused. There are some ships like the Cerb, Tengu, and Caracal which are used, but most Caldari PvP is done with rails or ECM.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#28 - 2014-02-24 22:15:25 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Lets suppose that Naga gets a 5% per level damage bonus to these RHML's. Probably a decent assumption. Let's also assume that it get's no bonuses to explosion velocity, explosion radius, or missile velocity. (probably unlikely)

8 launchers * 1.25 = 10 effective launchers.

Now can anyone guess how well a 10 effective launcher Naga packing Precision missiles while using one or more TP's and 2 Rigor Catalysts + a Flare Catalyst will do against non interceptor Frigates? A good benchmark is roughly 700 DPS with Precisions for such a ship using a double BCS fit.

The answer is damn well. Interceptors will still kite it easily, but a good interceptor can kite Warrior II's, so that's a bad benchmark.
Anything less is liekly to be chewed up and spat out in short order.

If it's not a Frig, load Fury and unload 900-1k DPS of tracking immune missiles into the cruiser, reducing it to wreckage in short order.

TLDR: RHML's can be be very potent against frigs and cruisers as long as the naga fits a TP and application rigs.

There are only two ships that get RHML damage bonuses - the Gnosis and Typhoon Fleet, and at 4-6 launchers I think it's safe to say if the Naga were to be retrofitted for missiles it would probably receive missile and explosion velocity. There's no way it would receive a +25% damage bonus because this would put it on par with the State Raven, and I just don't see that happening. I like the idea of a missile-based Naga, but I'm also a realist...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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