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Can we remove the hull based target cap
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#21 - 2014-02-24 19:37:13 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:

No, this is the thread where people that want to prove how e-tough they are tell everyone how bad an idea is without actually addressing the idea itself.


The idea has been addressed: It's bad, and has little to no merit.

The limit on max locked targets on a given hull is a balance point. If you want to lock more targets with a particular hull, you are intended to have to make tradeoffs by fitting active targeting mods or signal amps. That is the purpose of the limitation.

The only person throwing around 'e-tough' so far has been you.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#22 - 2014-02-24 19:40:22 UTC
The Djego wrote:
The skill is quite useful at 5 given you fly hulls that can lock 10 targets a lot(logi, marauder, recon) and can make the extra 2 lock slots available to you by adding a signal amplifier or auto targeter. It is quite niche to bring it to 5, but it gives you a lot more ease and performance for some roles(cap logi for incursions or a remote rep marauder for example), at the cost of one low or utility high slots you get the additional locks your skill provides on the hull and can reduce the amount of target switching(because even 10 can be quite limited at times).

Like a lot of advanced logistic and recon skills it is quite niche but can be very useful to have if you fly logi on a daily basis for example, got everything maxed out and become a bit more flexible with the fitting and more proficient with the role.



As a note, Target Management V and Advanced Target Management IV adds a total of 9 lockable targets onto the base of (2 I think?), getting you to the natural 10 slot cap of any ship in the game I know of, all at a total cost of less than 400k SP, since Target Management is a 1x skill and Advanced Target Management is only a 3x that you need to take to lv 3 or 4.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-02-24 20:25:42 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
The only person throwing around 'e-tough' so far has been you.


I disagree with your stance that you are not trying to be e-tough, as this is your previous post.

Domanique Altares wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
unless you fit active targeters.


There's your solution. Problem solved.

In the future, if you want 'value for the skills you trained,' then fly ships that can take advantage of those skills.

I eagerly await your next thread, where you tell us that all ships should have their targeting range extended to 250km.


The definition of professionalism. Roll

But you actually provided an argument, although I don't see much substance in it.

Domanique Altares wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:

No, this is the thread where people that want to prove how e-tough they are tell everyone how bad an idea is without actually addressing the idea itself.


The idea has been addressed: It's bad, and has little to no merit.

The limit on max locked targets on a given hull is a balance point. If you want to lock more targets with a particular hull, you are intended to have to make tradeoffs by fitting active targeting mods or signal amps. That is the purpose of the limitation.


In my mind there are two merits to making this change. First off is that it changes how this one isolated skill works to be consistent with other skills that affect ship attributes. The second is that number of locked targets is rarely, if ever, a 'balancing point.' The ships where this would be a balancing point have naturally high number of maxed targets, specifically logistics ships. Outside of logistics ships and sieged blap dreads, which have already been covered, this is a skill of convenience. I would welcome an actual argument as to why a mining barge, frigate, battleship, or titan locking up to 12 targets is a 'balancing point.' Your argument that this is a developer calculated, metric backed balancing tool like armor or power-grid is dubious. I would guess that the devs set it a long time ago based on a gut feeling, and if they actually sat down and considered why it was done now they would struggle to find a reason based firmly on PvP balance.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#24 - 2014-02-24 20:38:35 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I would welcome an actual argument as to why a mining barge, frigate, battleship, or titan locking up to 12 targets is a 'balancing point.'


You forgot to include your noctis in that list.

You also forgot to include what the requisite slots are used for. This is where the tradeoff happens.

Do you want to use Auto Targets? Yes.

Does your ship have a utility high? Yes. Want more targets? Yes. Give up unbonused DPS or neuting/nosing/cloaking capability.

Does your ship have a utility high? No. Give up bonused DPS/mining yield/reps to lock more things.

Do you want to use signal amps instead? Yes.

Choose one commonly buffed stat to not buff:

Damage.

Tank.

Yield.

Speed.

Agility.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-02-24 21:02:48 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I would welcome an actual argument as to why a mining barge, frigate, battleship, or titan locking up to 12 targets is a 'balancing point.'


You forgot to include your noctis in that list.

You also forgot to include what the requisite slots are used for. This is where the tradeoff happens.

Do you want to use Auto Targets? Yes.

Does your ship have a utility high? Yes. Want more targets? Yes. Give up unbonused DPS or neuting/nosing/cloaking capability.

Does your ship have a utility high? No. Give up bonused DPS/mining yield/reps to lock more things.

Do you want to use signal amps instead? Yes.

Choose one commonly buffed stat to not buff:

Damage.

Tank.

Yield.

Speed.

Agility.


That brings us full circle in the argument back to this is the only skill that affects a ships attributes that doesn't always get the full effect. From your examples you get the full potency of a speed skill, you don't get 2 or 3 levels of you navigation skill and then fit another mod to get the full level 5 potency. You fit a gun and get all your gunnery skills, you don't get level 4 potency and then use a utility high to get that level 5 skill potency. You get the full bonus of tank skills all the time, you don't need to fit a shield recharger mod to get your shield management skill to work to full effect.

But when it comes to targeting you have to fit additional mods to a ship to be able to take advantage of advanced targeting management 5. At least ships that aren't carriers in triage.
Chihiro Chugakusei
Fortune Hunters - Navy Operations
#26 - 2014-02-24 23:07:55 UTC
I see why you don't like the system, but I would think of the skill differently. Instead it is set up so that if you have the appropriate gear you can use more of your skill level. The skill level allows you to extend your targeting in special circumstances.

This might be baloney, I don't know. I honestly don't understand whats happening with the cap on targets. Could there be a better system? Sure. Will there be one? I don't think that there is enough incentive, other than that it would streamline things somewhat.

Keep it up, +1
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