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Why are many people on these forums so negative, and so hostile?

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Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#241 - 2014-02-27 11:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:

Yes, the emotional "damage" can be real.

Just like in the boxing ring the physical damage will be real.

The question is, if someone didn't like to be physically harmed, why did they climb into the boxing ring, wearing boxing outfit, and announce "yes, here I am, I understand I can be boxed, you may box me when ready".

And then afterwards try and claim the person who KO'd them is morally equivalent to someone who goes around the street beating of old ladies.



Choice
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#242 - 2014-02-27 11:55:50 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The question is, if someone didn't like to be physically harmed, why did they climb into the boxing ring, wearing boxing outfit, and announce "yes, here I am, I understand I can be boxed, you may box me when ready".


I suppose by the same logic I could ask you why you crawled out of your mothers womb.

Is this going somewhere?


When you log into a game, you risk the emotional damage. If you don't like it, don't come into the ring.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#243 - 2014-02-27 11:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The question is, if someone didn't like to be physically harmed, why did they climb into the boxing ring, wearing boxing outfit, and announce "yes, here I am, I understand I can be boxed, you may box me when ready".


I suppose by the same logic I could ask you why you crawled out of your mothers womb.

Is this going somewhere?


When you log into a game, you risk the emotional damage. If you don't like it, don't come into the ring.


When I go outside to smoke I risk someone running up and mugging me.

Just because something is possible, is someone choosing to make it happen right?

They may be different because one is online and one is offline.

But they're similar in regards that it's one person choosing to gain for himself at another's expense. Someone who didn't wish for it to take place.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#244 - 2014-02-27 11:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Divine Entervention wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The question is, if someone didn't like to be physically harmed, why did they climb into the boxing ring, wearing boxing outfit, and announce "yes, here I am, I understand I can be boxed, you may box me when ready".


I suppose by the same logic I could ask you why you crawled out of your mothers womb.

Is this going somewhere?


When you log into a game, you risk the emotional damage. If you don't like it, don't come into the ring.


When I go outside to smoke I risk someone running up and mugging me.

Just because something is possible, is someone choosing to make it happen right?


The difference between the real world is that you must live in. In the EVE world, you choose to be in it. The risk from any harm done to you in EVE can be totally 100% removed from your life, forever, by leaving the game.

Since you have a choice to be here it's implied that you accept the risks, and that you consent the way a boxer or rugby player consents to bodily harm in the games they choose to play, and therefore the harm done is no longer morally wrong.
Lady Areola Fappington
#245 - 2014-02-27 12:02:55 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The question is, if someone didn't like to be physically harmed, why did they climb into the boxing ring, wearing boxing outfit, and announce "yes, here I am, I understand I can be boxed, you may box me when ready".


I suppose by the same logic I could ask you why you crawled out of your mothers womb.

Is this going somewhere?


When you log into a game, you risk the emotional damage. If you don't like it, don't come into the ring.


I can't like this enough, it's just that correct.

When I'm not in a good headspace to play EVE, and deal with the possible consequences...I don't play. If I do log in, I stay docked and just chat with friends.



It's almost like watching someone get in the boxing ring when they have a migraine, then complain about how their headache is worse....only then to ***** about why headshots are legal.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#246 - 2014-02-27 12:03:00 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The question is, if someone didn't like to be physically harmed, why did they climb into the boxing ring, wearing boxing outfit, and announce "yes, here I am, I understand I can be boxed, you may box me when ready".


I suppose by the same logic I could ask you why you crawled out of your mothers womb.

Is this going somewhere?


When you log into a game, you risk the emotional damage. If you don't like it, don't come into the ring.


When I go outside to smoke I risk someone running up and mugging me.

Just because something is possible, is someone choosing to make it happen right?


The difference between the real world is that you must live in. In the EVE world, you choose to be in it. The risk from any harm done to you in EVE can be totally 100% removed from your life, forever, by leaving the game.


Isn't EVE within the real world?
Salvos Rhoska
#247 - 2014-02-27 12:03:28 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The difference between the real world is that you must live in. In the EVE world, you choose to be in it. The risk from any harm done to you in EVE can be totally 100% removed from your life, forever, by leaving the game.


Yes, you can forever leave life too if you so choose.

Where is any of this going?
You are making arguments as if anyone had claimed anything contrary to them.

What is your exact and specific point, please?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#248 - 2014-02-27 12:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
The "harshness" of eve doesn't have to exist. It can exist, and I'm glad it does. It makes things interesting.

It provides entertainment. If it didn't exist, I wouldn't have this super fun opportunity to speak with you about opinions on the subject.

But it's also based on choices. While you choose to lie to someone to gain his trust, then use that trust to steal 500m isk out of his possession, that is you choosing to be a person who lies to steal. You may be lying and stealing from people online within a game, but you're still lying and stealing FROM PEOPLE.

And the game doesn't even REQUIRE you to steal from people. You don't have to. There is no where in the EULA that says you MUST lie and steal from people. CCP has never said that everyone has to be bad. You choosing to be bad means this:

That you will choose to be bad.

There are times in your life where you will choose to lie and steal from people.

Because you prove to me that you are someone who will make the choice to steal from someone, I'm going to label you as someone who will make the choice to steal from someone and regard you as such. I will never fully trust you in any scenario, because you've already proven to me that there are times where you will choose to lie and steal from people when you do not have to.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#249 - 2014-02-27 12:23:22 UTC
So when I'd play poker and do everything I can to make you believe my hand is so good that you have to fold, and I manage to make you fold.
And then I take your money, while my hand was crap.
Then I am a person you cannot trust, too?
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#250 - 2014-02-27 12:28:53 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
So when I'd play poker and do everything I can to make you believe my hand is so good that you have to fold, and I manage to make you fold.
And then I take your money, while my hand was crap.
Then I am a person you cannot trust, too?


Poker is not a sandbox.

EvE is a game based on choices. Poker is a game based on being dealt cards.

Seriously, we've had the poker discussion in this thread already. I'm not going to have it again.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#251 - 2014-02-27 12:44:20 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Incorrect. I've successfully demonstrated through analogies that you are you, despite you pretending to be someone else.
Nope. You've successfully demonstrated that you can observe in context what you can observe in context, that is all. You have yet to demonstrate that there is any way to transpose observations between contexts, and yet you keep trying to make judgements across those lines. So all you've demonstrated is that your claims about other people are prejudiced.

Quote:
But, since you're making the choice, I get to label you as someone who chooses to be a criminal. Because you choose to do it.
…which tells you absolutely nothing about the character of the person.

Quote:
If I see someone join a corporation, lie to the director saying he wishes to help and asks for and is given roles, and then he takes over the corporation by removing every one else's roles and calling a CEO vote, and attempting to extort isk from the people he's stolen from, that is not me making up an observation.
…but you making claims about the person and his motivations and morality is. Because you have no observations to base those claims on — only prejudice.

Quote:
Poker is not a sandbox.
Irrelevant. It is still a game with players and rules that they abide by and with a magic circle that separates in-game from out-of game. Like EVE, poker is a game of choice.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#252 - 2014-02-27 12:46:29 UTC
Mandarine wrote:
It is self-evident that gankers and many scammers are not out to create a narrative developing within the magic circle, even though some of their deeds are relayed by press and fora as part of the EvE story. But what those deeds really are, are players using an online game as a platform to revel in the joy of having humiliated someone accross the internet.
Do you have anything to support this claim?
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#253 - 2014-02-27 12:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Riyria Twinpeaks
Divine Entervention wrote:
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
So when I'd play poker and do everything I can to make you believe my hand is so good that you have to fold, and I manage to make you fold.
And then I take your money, while my hand was crap.
Then I am a person you cannot trust, too?


Poker is not a sandbox.

EvE is a game based on choices. Poker is a game based on being dealt cards.

Seriously, we've had the poker discussion in this thread already. I'm not going to have it again.


I guess I missed that part.

I read a bit back into the thread again and also noticed the "gaining trust, then steal" part. That's indeed something I wouldn't be comfortable doing myself, and I'd probably be angry if someone did it to me.
Someone I consider a friend stealing from me, of course I'd feel betrayed.

Somehow I was writing under the assumption the talk was about regular scammers.

Edit:
But the case of someone telling some Corporation director, or whatever they're called here, two days after joining: "Hey, give me access to your hangar I need to borrow a ship" .. and that director does this and has his stuff stolen..
I'm on the fence here. I wouldn't do that myself, but there wasn't really any personal relation and trust to be betrayed, "just" some naivety.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#254 - 2014-02-27 13:04:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Incorrect. I've successfully demonstrated through analogies that you are you, despite you pretending to be someone else.
Nope. You've successfully demonstrated that you can observe in context what you can observe in context, that is all. You have yet to demonstrate that there is any way to transpose observations between contexts, and yet you keep trying to make judgements across those lines. So all you've demonstrated is that your claims about other people are prejudiced.

Quote:
But, since you're making the choice, I get to label you as someone who chooses to be a criminal. Because you choose to do it.
…which tells you absolutely nothing about the character of the person.

Quote:
If I see someone join a corporation, lie to the director saying he wishes to help and asks for and is given roles, and then he takes over the corporation by removing every one else's roles and calling a CEO vote, and attempting to extort isk from the people he's stolen from, that is not me making up an observation.
…but you making claims about the person and his motivations and morality is. Because you have no observations to base those claims on — only prejudice.

Quote:
Poker is not a sandbox.
Irrelevant. It is still a game with players and rules that they abide by and with a magic circle that separates in-game from out-of game. Like EVE, poker is a game of choice.


Prejudiced. You keep saying that word but I think you do not know what it means.

By definition, prejudice is preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

Hypothetically:

The experience, You lying to me saying you want to borrow 500m for 1 month and you promise you'll pay me back 530m. You chose to keep the isk and never repay me.

Reason, because you chose to lie and steal from me, I reason that you are the type of person who will pick and choose to lie and steal from other people in an environment where it's not required for you to do so.

Tells me nothing about the character? Wrong, it tells me that the person makes the choice to be a criminal.

The observation is the action that took place. The person is enacting the action.

I'm not playing Poker, I'm playing EVE. It can be argued that an appealing aspect of EVE is the more life-like qualities of the game, besides the fantastical science fiction of being in a future thousands of years away flying through space in a ships. It's similarites are: The ability to interact with hundreds of thousands of other REAL people. Persistence when the individual is not logged in. When you're offline, the game keeps going! Learning/skill progression. Items of value. A thriving economy all encompassing economy. And most importantly, the ability to play it any way we see fit. Choose to be a criminal! Choose to be a miner! Choose to be a trader! Choose to be a pirate! Have an impact on the game play of others, either positive or negative.

What other game on the market has a stronger connection to reality? Even CCP ran an ad campaign with a slogan of "EVE Is Real!" Is it really real? Well . . . it does exist. If EVE didn't exist, then I wouldn't be here talking about it. You might, I dunno. You seem capable of wanting to sit around and think about things that don't exist (like saying Poker and EVE are identical games, poker is essentially CARDS IN SPACE).

Is what's happening a reality? Because of these ships flying on our screens, does it mean there's one really flying in space? No, of course not. It's not really real, it's just kind of real. It's pretty similar to being real.

Now considering how real eve almost is, what is the one element of the game that is 100% genuinely real? The other people you're playing with. The most important part of EVE, it's people. You can not argue that the people playing EVE are not real. There may be bots, but I swear if you try to argue that I am not real. That my friends are not real, I will insult you. Screw the rules, if you want to argue that we as people, are not real people. You will be deserving of all the negativity I will say about you.

But back to the point. The people are real. The only real aspect of the game.

You are a real person. You tell me lies saying you want to borrow from me. I believe you. You lied. You stole. From me. A real person. That really happened. The platform for which you chose to stole from me might not be, but the action you perform is what creates the reality.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#255 - 2014-02-27 13:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Divine Entervention wrote:
Prejudiced. You keep saying that word but I think you do not know what it means.
It means you're making judgment about people based on nothing but assumptions.

Quote:
Tells me nothing about the character? Wrong, it tells me that the person makes the choice to be a criminal.
The observation is the action that took place. The person is enacting the action.
…which still tells you nothing about the character of the person, only about the fact that the action took place in a game. You have a sharp disconnect between the two that you can only bridge by making assumptions. Any claim you make about the character is therefore pure prejudice.

Quote:
I'm not playing Poker, I'm playing EVE.
Then you should probably stop trying to make any definitive claims about poker… hmm?

Quote:
You are a real person. You tell me lies saying you want to borrow from me. I believe you. You lied. You stole. From me. A real person. That really happened. The platform for which you chose to stole from me might not be, but the action you perform is what creates the reality.
…which all happened within the confines of the magic circle where such things are part of the game. Thus, they only tell you about the game and your relationships and actions within it — not about the character of the person out of game (unless, of course, you want to apply some assumed causal chain between the two and rely on nothing prejudice to make spurious claims about the morality and ethics of other players).
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#256 - 2014-02-27 13:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Ai Shun wrote:
Gyromite wrote:
@ Divine Entervention: Hi, I'm a typical RPG thief class character, are my values in real life morally reprehensible?


Mate, please. We've had three good threads ruined by that discussion. All that will happen is he'll fill the thread with insults and arguments and go on and on without a real point. Don't go there again, please. If you really want to see what he has to say, use eve-search and read it there. Please.





That's why I've pretty much stopped, I've learned time and again in life that punching at a brick wall only leaves your hands bloody and broken lol. Let people think what they want, it's enough to know that they are wrong, we don't need them to (and will never get them to) realize it or admit it.

This is what I think of these self proclaimed "pillars of morality" .
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2014-02-27 13:28:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
That's why I've pretty much stopped, I've learned time and again in life that punching at a brick wall only leaves your hands bloody and broken lol. Let people think what they want, it's enough to know that they are wrong, we don't need them to (and will never get them to) realize it or admit it.

This is what I think of these self proclaimed "pillars of morality" .

new topic: is mocking such people reflective of our personal character Sad
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#258 - 2014-02-27 13:33:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Prejudiced. You keep saying that word but I think you do not know what it means.
It means you're making judgment about people based on nothing but assumptions.

Quote:
Tells me nothing about the character? Wrong, it tells me that the person makes the choice to be a criminal.
The observation is the action that took place. The person is enacting the action.
…which still tells you nothing about the character of the person, only about the fact that the action took place in a game. You have a sharp disconnect between the two that you can only bridge by making assumptions. Any claim you make about the character is therefore pure prejudice.

Quote:
I'm not playing Poker, I'm playing EVE.
Then you should probably stop trying to make any definitive claims about poker… hmm?

Quote:
You are a real person. You tell me lies saying you want to borrow from me. I believe you. You lied. You stole. From me. A real person. That really happened. The platform for which you chose to stole from me might not be, but the action you perform is what creates the reality.
…which all happened within the confines of the magic circle where such things are part of the game. Thus, they only tell you about the game and your relationships and actions within it — not about the character of the person out of game (unless, of course, you want to apply some assumed causal chain between the two and rely on nothing prejudice to make spurious claims about the morality and ethics of other players).


regarding prejudice, I gave you the exact definition and correlated how my statements are not prejudiced. Which you have proven in other posts, you define your statements differently based on who you're speaking with.

I've made no claims against any specific individuals without evidence.

I want specific evidence from you showing I make claims without evidence.

Since you've proven multiple times already you have a hard time with definitions, let me define evidence for you, consider it a . . . . Define Entervention
Evidence:
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Also keep in mind people stating that they choose to steal from others counts as information
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#259 - 2014-02-27 13:36:12 UTC
I think Tippia's point is that the information is "people stating that they choose to steal from others in a game".
You don't seem to assign any importance to the "in a game" part, but I don't think that's quite right.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#260 - 2014-02-27 13:41:11 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
I think Tippia's point is that the information is "people stating that they choose to steal from others in a game".
You don't seem to assign any importance to the "in a game" part, but I don't think that's quite right.


The only real aspect of eve is how we treat each other. Despite the action taking place "in game" the person making that choice is "out of game". None of us can truly be in the game. It's online. inside computers. I can't fit in my modem.

The reality of the situation is that we're all real people making real choices. The consequences might take place in an imaginary made up land, but the reality is, those actions are happening because people choose to make them happen, and their taking place is inside the internet, but the intention is to effect and potentially affect the other person the chosen actions are being made against.