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Why hi sec players will NOT move into low or null no matter how much you cry about it.

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Aaron Aardvark
Doomheim
#141 - 2011-11-11 22:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron Aardvark
Serene Repose wrote:
Have you ever considered the reason most people don't go into null or low sec is because you're out there? This may be hard to believe, and it isn't meant as an insult. If your idea of "play" is destroying things, including the efforts and aspirations of other people, and you're unhappy with null and low sec because there's just not enough people out there to get your ya yas out, it may be highly likely the problem is with you, not the mechanics of the game.

The reason I say this is this issue of null/low/hi sec keeps getting tossed around, but the cogent point about why players aren't encouraged with the idea of leaving hi sec specifically isn't really covered adequately, or is so heavily stomped on by the "destructive" players who also can't seem to keep their attitudes confined to their playing "styles."

So, here it is. The great majority of EVE players do not find constantly fighting with no real opportunity to be creative (rather than destructive) a satisfying, enjoyable or productive way to spend time. This obviates (Google it) itself by the sheer numbers of complaints from the destructive players, and the relative lack of similar complaints by those who are contemptuously labeled "Care Bears." It's even to the point where the destructive minority is urging CCP to change game mechanics to force the productive players into their arena so they may be supplied with a steady stream of victims.

Oddly enough, this disdain for a destructive gaming style has not so much to do with cowardice (and the destructive types with some sort of bravery) as it has to do with the mind-numbing repetitiveness of destructive gameplay. Face it. More intelligent, and widely versed people require something a bit more intricate than pew pew to attract their interest. Self-imagined thugs, however, need only to kick a hole in something to get their titillating giggles out. The adrenalin rush is okay. The satisfaction of seeing an intricately planned and well-executed creation reach fruition is much, much better.

As long as the majority of players see null and low sec as a sucker's bet populated only by those that intend to destroy everything creative players build, just to provide yucks for a minority of vocal (putting it nicely) vandals you will NOT see a major migration of hi sec players into low or null sec. Funny thing about intelligent people. They aren't stupid.

Read it and weep.




PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO PVP WON'T GO TO LOSEC OR NULLSEC SHOCKER!!!!
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#142 - 2011-11-11 22:14:38 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
In the end, mining Jaspet in a 0.4 system doesn't turn much more profit than mining Veldspar in high-sec.
So not only did the "reward" for me going into low-sec already begin to shrink, then add to it that my ore intake in 0.4 would be restricted due to the need to be able to tank/destroy the belt rats when they do show up in their destroyers and cruisers. On top of that, there's the low-sec usual types who will destroy anything they can get targeted.


A few things you probably didn't take into account for your spreadsheet because you were so focused on the numbers.

Low sec mining gets you access to Zydrine and Noxcium. Now usually you can find this stuff on the market. But usually it's pretty far away in the trade hubs. Therefore as well as calculating the "ISK/hr", you must take into account 1) The cost of a hauler to go pick it up and bring it back 2) the time involved. If you are an industrialist who "builds his own", just having it nearby is possibly much more profitable than having to go all the way to Jita/Amarr/Dodixie to get it, even if the "isk/hour" of mining is the same.

But yes, I agree with you that you will absolutely not get rich by mining in low sec.



while true, you will need a bot fleet or to afk mine 23/7 to get any appreciable amounts, and in terms of time, risk and loss of free time its worth buying it on the market for a good many people
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#143 - 2011-11-11 22:23:41 UTC
Morganta wrote:


while true, you will need a bot fleet or to afk mine 23/7 to get any appreciable amounts,


You would be surprised at the amount of ore a single pimped out mining barge can pull in with max skills and implants. The trick is to not get killed.
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2011-11-11 23:41:09 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
You would be surprised at the amount of ore a single pimped out mining barge can pull in with max skills and implants. The trick is to not get killed.


and then get camped in station for 4 hour straight
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#145 - 2011-11-12 00:00:39 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
TD;DR

Basically said that High Sec Players like to create not destroy.

This is not the case though there is much room for colonizing 0.0 and building something that would be talked for ages. There are very few things that come even close to what you can do out there and build out there. Then like all things in order to build you must find the ashes of before to build upon.




Actually this was tried before - it was called "Hub 0" or something like that. There were a couple of epic threadnaughts over it.


It was tried, and fell to the fact that some people just can't get past ganking - and then those people, being sociopaths, did the usual politics, hiding behind the "EvE is harsh" argument, and other forms of self aggrandizing bloviations, dramaboi routines, and standard trappings of the Neckbeard Universe.


I know what would work.

I mentioned in another thread recently that system to system warp, Star Trek or Star Wars style (though I like the hyperwarp effects better in Star Wars) would be the game changer.

Fact is, going to 0.0 means lots of things but are limited to being a target or being fodder for targets.

Give the game system-to-system point to point warp and the reign of the warp bubble is over the the "Great Wall of Carebear" comes tumbling down like the Berlin Wall. The reign of the combat probe begins and the blobs become split up into combat patrols, and any skirmish can be from small gangs to fleet fight bonanzas.

I think a good time would be had by all. No "I WIN" button here. But in the present situation, leaving high sec is at best an "I BROKE EVEN" proposition, but usually an I LOSE button.

Would it be that impossible for point to point system to system warp?

CCP, SET US FREEEEEE!!!!!1!!!!!!



Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2011-11-12 00:05:07 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
TD;DR

Basically said that High Sec Players like to create not destroy.

This is not the case though there is much room for colonizing 0.0 and building something that would be talked for ages. There are very few things that come even close to what you can do out there and build out there. Then like all things in order to build you must find the ashes of before to build upon.




Actually this was tried before - it was called "Hub 0" or something like that. There were a couple of epic threadnaughts over it.


It was tried, and fell to the fact that some people just can't get past ganking - and then those people, being sociopaths, did the usual politics, hiding behind the "EvE is harsh" argument, and other forms of self aggrandizing bloviations, dramaboi routines, and standard trappings of the Neckbeard Universe.


I know what would work.

I mentioned in another thread recently that system to system warp, Star Trek or Star Wars style (though I like the hyperwarp effects better in Star Wars) would be the game changer.

Fact is, going to 0.0 means lots of things but are limited to being a target or being fodder for targets.

Give the game system-to-system point to point warp and the reign of the warp bubble is over the the "Great Wall of Carebear" comes tumbling down like the Berlin Wall. The reign of the combat probe begins and the blobs become split up into combat patrols, and any skirmish can be from small gangs to fleet fight bonanzas.

I think a good time would be had by all. No "I WIN" button here. But in the present situation, leaving high sec is at best an "I BROKE EVEN" proposition, but usually an I LOSE button.

Would it be that impossible for point to point system to system warp?

CCP, SET US FREEEEEE!!!!!1!!!!!!





What part of ''this would make Eve a single player game'' don't you understand?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#147 - 2011-11-12 00:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jennifer Starling
Serene Repose wrote:
The great majority of EVE players do not find constantly fighting with no real opportunity to be creative (rather than destructive) a satisfying, enjoyable or productive way to spend time.

As much as I sympathize I can´t wholeheartedly agree with the OP.

The thing is that most highsec `carebears` that I know don´t mind fighting at all. Nor do they mind losing ships in combat, even lots of them. That´s actually not the big problem.

The problem can be divided into a few points:

  • `free PvP` in EVE is restricted to areas that are hard to reach and organizing a roam is very time consuming
  • to get into PvP can take a very long time, you can even roam lowsec for hours without finding a fight
  • losing implants when podded
  • PvP in EVE usually isn't about equal chances but very much about mere numbers
  • Security hits in lowsec

Now imagine there would be 1 vs 1 and 4 vs 4 arenas for frigate and cruiser hulls in some highsec systems where you wouldn't get a security hit except when you pod someone. You can immediately jump into action whenever you have time and chances are equal.
Ask yourself how many 'carebears' would happily spend hours losing their ships for no other reason than the thrill and learning about PvP?

They'd definitely find constantly fighting with no real opportunity to be creative (rather than destructive) a satisfying, enjoyable or productive way to spend time.
Just Lilly
#148 - 2011-11-12 00:37:03 UTC
Empire offers solo gameplay with both profit and no downtime, low, 0.0 and w-space does not.

EvE is an MMO, best experienced in a group with other players with the same goals.
But not everyone is like that, i'm pretty sure there are tons of players who wants to do solo stuff.

So they are pretty much limited to Empire.
Powered by Nvidia GTX 690
Terminal Entry
New Fnord Industries
#149 - 2011-11-12 00:53:42 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:


The opportunities to be constructive in 0.0 far out weighs the opportunities to be constructive in empire.



That could very well be true, but reread what the OP said to understand why people will still stay in high sec.

To paraphrase you, "The opportunities to be destructive in 0.0 far out weighs the opportunities to be destructive in empire".
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#150 - 2011-11-12 01:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
I'm not gonna pretend that my own experiences is applicable to everybody, but during my own journey I've had a few surprises regarding the sentiments expressed in this thread.

When I started out a few years ago I started out in highsec and stayed there for some time, doing mining, missioning, ratting (lol) and some basic T1 manufacture.

During this time I ventured once out to lowsec because of curiosity - and got ganked in a belt by a Hurricane within 3 minutes.

I joined a corp I liked the name of, only to find that they were essentially nullsec based. And had a war going on. Next time i went to Jita in my Merlin i got killed on the station. Twice.

Dropped that corp, joined a new one, and life was peachy for about 2 weeks, when the corp got wardecced by a griefercorp which essentially tore us newbies a new one with their HACs and Recons. After a while, the corp more or less fell apart. Moving back with all my belongings in a hauler, I got suicide ganked and lost all my stuff.

After a couple of months running aimlessly around in empire in my own corp - feeling alone, bored and depressed - and getting ganked on lowsec gates twice - I finally decided to look for a way to learn how to PVP so I could a) defend myself and b) avoid unfavorable encounters.

So I joined a nullsec PVP corp. And learned so much stuff about game mechanics I didnt knew about it was pretty amazing. And I never left nullsec after that. I'm still there - with an army of highsec alts - because like the OP, I like to construct things as well as blow them up.

My first period in highsec I felt lost, bored and infuriated by all the griefers and people out to destroy my game, as I sure as hell didnt have any intention to destroy theirs. This all changed when I moved to null. After a while I knew what I was doing, I knew how to travel safely through hostile space, I knew how to avoid unfavourable encounters. I learned how to stay safe. I learned how to set up traps, and spring them, on overconfident griefers.

Coming back to highsec, suddenly those grifers, lowsec pirates and other scumbags Cool wasnt so scary anomore. So - to all you highsec people that are not nullsec alts, but actual pure highsec players: Take a leap of faith. If you cant beat them, join them. You will be amazed how the game opens up for you.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#151 - 2011-11-12 01:41:59 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
good stuff.


+1
Celestine Polel
Without the Daystar
#152 - 2011-11-12 01:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestine Polel
I'm amazed that there have been entire pages in this thread without the word 'casual' occuring.

The fact is that the casual player is often playing solo even if they are in a corp with other casual players (Freddy can't log in tonight 'cause one of his kids is sick, Jimmy and his missus went to the cinema etc.). They're not interested in diplomacy, CTAs or even SOV. They might be interested in POSes if they've got the capital for it but they're probably more interested in garnering enough isk for their next shiny acquisition.

"Don't fly what you can't afford to lose", right? In high-sec the more noobish players don't have to worry about losing their t1 fit drakes... And in all honesty they don't have the ISK reserves to shrug it off anyway. Every mil is a milestone for them and they need to be in space for weeks just to recoup the costs. While the more experienced players don't have to warp their marauders to a pos anytime a neut enters the system. There are approximately 5 and a half people logged in at the moment for every system in eve, which would be a lot of time wasted warping to and sitting in the POS or station.

I guess one route might be easy access to NPC null but it doesn't solve the problems either. As some-one said earlier "one neut in local doesn't matter if you've got a couple of buddies"... yeah the problem is: you are that neut and you are fair game to anyone nearby that also happens to have couple of buddies logged in. Perhaps in addition to easier NPC-null access might be stronger emphasis on exploration and then increased protection when you're in sites (could be for mission sites too). Null really isn't worth it for the casual players in any commodity you chose to mention - time, isk, stress, whatever.

I'm worried that focus on trying to make null-sec a tasty enough carrot to entice people from high-sec will not work. I'm worried that it will only make the entrenched null-sec alliances richer and their super-cap blobs larger. At the same time it makes it harder for small groups to get a meagre foothold let alone a profit out of a move to null. If there need to be more isk sinks, so be it but the carrot needs to be reachable... not dangled in our faces and then whipped away and munched on by blobs of goons, or PL or whoever else happens to playing super serious alliance/coalition pvp spaceships.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#153 - 2011-11-12 02:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Celestine Polel wrote:
I'm amazed that there have been entire pages in this thread without the word 'casual' occuring.




I'll just counter with this: Yes, the big nullsec alliances are about CTAs and Sov. But in between the large powerblocks, there are plenty of smaller entities - usually basing in NPC null, where a casual playstyle is entirely possible. And that DID solve the problem - at least for me.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#154 - 2011-11-12 02:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Nova Fox wrote:
TD;DR

Basically said that High Sec Players like to create not destroy.

This is not the case though there is much room for colonizing 0.0 and building something that would be talked for ages. There are very few things that come even close to what you can do out there and build out there. Then like all things in order to build you must find the ashes of before to build upon.



Basicly said, most of those grieffing there and "pvp" there just because they like Concorde and "safety" more than each single rookie or afk miner.

Change high sec to null like for a month or two and let's see how many uber high sec pvp gays or griefers will show their epeen.

I already know the answer: 0
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#155 - 2011-11-12 03:52:03 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Richard Hammond II wrote:

They also have the downside of highsec ppl not having access to moon goo and making more than a billion a day, which I think is the larger issue here. Goons/0.0 ppl have basically unlimited resources for their fun, Highsec dont.

Its kinda like a DM game vs ppl with God Mode on

As the post above me has said, what with the amount on volume you lose having to tank your ship instead of running stuff that gets you better yield, and the lack of resources to get the minerals/ores to high sec to sell OR stations to process them, you make pretty much the same money as just one guy in a corp mining veld in high sec as you do just one guy mining ABC ores in 0.0. Sanctums make you less money than running a lvl 4 as well.



Well, not really. The person above you was doing it solo, so using that as an argument to not head to low is meh.

Pulling Sov holding alliances in the general "northern" regions of the map (ignoring the goons).

White Noise
Raiden
RAZOR
Get off my lawn
Fatal Ascension
Tactical Narcotics Team
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Fidelas (something ... the name is obscured by another alliance's)
Gentleman's Agreement
The Methodical Alliance

and a few others that I can't read (damn png map)

I'm sure *some* of them are big enough to have moongoo income, and need oxytopes, and don't like the goons ...

So, one of them contacts empire miners in Gallente space. They agree on a lowsec ice system.
Alliance provides the muscle, empire miners provide the oxytopes (or ice, whichever).

Trouble with that is the stupid fact that all lowsec systems with ice appear to have stations as well (WTF CCP).

edit -- alternatively, there is NPC nullsec with oxytopes that these guys could help set up a psuedo-safe system for a day or two...


None of the other nulsec alliances give a **** about high sec and/or dont see whats in it for them and/or are part of the massive super alliance DCF. so yeah theyre not shooting each other.

I was arguing that the highsec corps cant band together and fight them off as they dont have the resources as thats what you suggested in the first place.

Quote:
As long as the majority of players see null and low sec as a sucker's bet populated only by those that intend to destroy everything creative players build, just to provide yucks for a minority of vocal (putting it nicely) vandals you will NOT see a major migration of hi sec players into low or null sec. Funny thing about intelligent people. They aren't stupid.

Read it and weep.


Unless that "majority" you were talking about was the 0.0 and low players too... and if THEY see 0.0 and null as a "suckers bet" um... what the hell are THEY doing IN 0.0 and low?

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#156 - 2011-11-12 03:55:04 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Something to consider regarding Null Sec and it's residents.

Often a successful high sec based entity approaches a null sec entity to become a renter.

Once this happens the renter either fails to learn how to protect itself and it's interests, or it gains strength and experience sufficient to hold their given territory.

As time progresses, if the renters organization survives, it begins to attract a larger membership and greater wealth starts being generated for it's members.

Eventually they begin to feel the need to expand their borders, or at least solidify their holdings.

Finally they find themselves being approached by other empire based organizations for the purpose of seeking a rental agreement with them...



yeah I have yet to see this. The corps that are "renters" that Ive belonged to or had friends belong to never grew and had others rent from them, as the alliance we were renting from would have smashed us into nothingness had we even tried that.

Mostly it seems to work as a pyramid scheme lol

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#157 - 2011-11-12 04:13:40 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Richard Hammond II wrote:

They also have the downside of highsec ppl not having access to moon goo and making more than a billion a day, which I think is the larger issue here. Goons/0.0 ppl have basically unlimited resources for their fun, Highsec dont.

Its kinda like a DM game vs ppl with God Mode on

As the post above me has said, what with the amount on volume you lose having to tank your ship instead of running stuff that gets you better yield, and the lack of resources to get the minerals/ores to high sec to sell OR stations to process them, you make pretty much the same money as just one guy in a corp mining veld in high sec as you do just one guy mining ABC ores in 0.0. Sanctums make you less money than running a lvl 4 as well.



Well, not really. The person above you was doing it solo, so using that as an argument to not head to low is meh.

Pulling Sov holding alliances in the general "northern" regions of the map (ignoring the goons).

White Noise
Raiden
RAZOR
Get off my lawn
Fatal Ascension
Tactical Narcotics Team
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Fidelas (something ... the name is obscured by another alliance's)
Gentleman's Agreement
The Methodical Alliance

and a few others that I can't read (damn png map)

I'm sure *some* of them are big enough to have moongoo income, and need oxytopes, and don't like the goons ...

So, one of them contacts empire miners in Gallente space. They agree on a lowsec ice system.
Alliance provides the muscle, empire miners provide the oxytopes (or ice, whichever).

Trouble with that is the stupid fact that all lowsec systems with ice appear to have stations as well (WTF CCP).

edit -- alternatively, there is NPC nullsec with oxytopes that these guys could help set up a psuedo-safe system for a day or two...

Primus: It sounds like it would be an awful lot of fun and I don't even mine.
Secundus: Of course you would have to deploy a security element for the entire freaking route to and from to prevent every Yartard for a dozen systems from trying to gate-camp themselves a KM to **** it to. So you'd have to mine a gianourmous amount of ice to make the investment worth it.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#158 - 2011-11-12 04:53:25 UTC
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
Alexandra Alt wrote:

This is my likes collector, I like to collect Likes, problem much ?


You appear to be doing it wrong.


I has a mission!
Dirty Weegie
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2011-11-12 06:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Weegie
If you want industrial players to move to nullsec you need to make zydrine and megacyte harder to obtain in highsec. Mission runners reprocess most loot then sell the minerals. If you changed reprocessing so that no zydrine or megacyte is given out then the price would sky rocket. This in turn would mean the price of T1 mods and ships would also sky rocket. meaning the rewards for braving lowsec for the all important ores much much greater.

The only way you would beable to run an industrial corp at a profit would be lowsec and nullsec mining.


.... or prices will sky rocket and all the carebares will still be to scared to go to null and null alliances will just get richer.

If you can't win fair... Cheat

TDR is Recruiting
Terminal Entry
New Fnord Industries
#160 - 2011-11-12 06:46:37 UTC
Dirty Weegie wrote:
If you want industrial players to move to nullsec you need to make zydrine and megacyte harder to obtain in highsec. Mission runners reprocess most loot then sell the minerals. If you changed reprocessing so that no zydrine or megacyte is given out then the price would sky rocket. This in turn would mean the price of T1 mods and ships would also sky rocket. meaning the rewards for braving lowsec for the all important ores much much greater.

The only way you would beable to run an industrial corp at a profit would be lowsec and nullsec mining.


.... or prices will sky rocket and all the carebares will still be to scared to go to null and null alliances will just get richer.


Fortunately mining isn't the be-all and end-all for an industrial player/corp! That is a stereotype.

I mean would you enjoy sitting in a mining barge, mining in 0.0? Doing so isn't all that safe either, even in high secAttention