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Why hi sec players will NOT move into low or null no matter how much you cry about it.

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Famble
Three's a Crowd
#101 - 2011-11-11 15:35:25 UTC
Time.

There's no place for a casual player in null. None.

If null is effectively endgame, and endgame requires a large, consistent time commitment (it has in every mmo I've ever played), and most Eve players are casual then I'm pretty sure we've arrived at the ultimate stalemate.

If anyone ever looks at you and says,_ "Hold my beer, watch this,"_  you're probably going to want to pay attention.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2011-11-11 15:40:02 UTC
Famble wrote:
Time.

There's no place for a casual player in null. None.

LIE

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#103 - 2011-11-11 15:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
At this point my view of the issue is "Live and let live", nobody should be forced to do anything they don't want to, mainly because many of them will quit rather than adapt (I'm an adapt before quit type, but the 1st part of understanding others is understanding that they are not YOU lol).

A couple things though:

#1. I will always find it weird (and ridicules) that a game built about and marketed as a harsh pvp sandbox game is mostly populated by people who dislike unrestricted pvp and mainly live their game lives in the "safer zones". I try to be understanding of the fact that different people want different things, but that's hard for me to reconcile, especially when "theme park" / pve centric space games like Star Trek Online exist (and lets be clear, STO is LIGHT YEARS better pve than eve). Me, personally, I'm a pvp'r who enjoys relaxing with some pve from time to time, but if I was personally more about pve (or didn't like pvp), EVE is the last game I'd play.

#2. The "zones" of eve are out of whack. The fact that I can take 1 ship, join a PUG incursion crew and make more isk in high sec than I can with 2 ships/accounts in an upgraded system in null is utter BS. Missions are not as good as null sec (I lived in empire my 1st 2 years and was a mission runner) in my experience, but it's close, and high sec mission running is perfectly safe if you don't "pimp your ride" to much.

It's crazy. I'm no game DEV, but I'd leave high sec alone, but massively boost rewards and costs/isk sinks as well as dangers (do something with local) in null sec to create a proper balance for a game that is supposed to be harsh and pvp-centric.

As it is now, EVE is pretty much a lie.......
Jenshae Chiroptera
#104 - 2011-11-11 15:42:15 UTC
"The Rush"

Mine the ore for it, get the BPO, make your ship then fly it in PVP. You will care much more about it than swopping a PLEX for ISK and buying it. That means a bigger gamble and rush for you.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
adopt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2011-11-11 15:42:45 UTC
Quote:
Firstly it needs:
- Covert POS in anomalies, cloak is disrupted every time someone leaves or enters it.
- Local removed.
- NPC reports removed.
- Player owned gates (need to disable or destroy someone else's to stop them jumping into your system)
Why does it need changes like this? So that small alliances and corps can survive out there and be a thorn in big alliance's sides.


-No
-No
-No
-No
Cygnus Deguo'ren
TonrarTech Corporation
#106 - 2011-11-11 15:48:40 UTC
I'm a new player (5mil SP) and I make without any effort or risk more than 1.2 billion isk profit per month in hisec. Why should I make myself an easy target in low/0.0 ? To make even more isk? For what?

There is only ONE simple solution what would turn me into a wolf in 0.0 - Make EVE a free open market economy! That means let me cash out my ISK back to real money.

Then EVE would become a real tough game! Twisted
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#107 - 2011-11-11 15:53:25 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
I've always maintained that what keeps players out of lo/null sec is the dwellers of these areas themselves. Their attitude. They complain when their areas are devoid of population. But once someone does show up they blob/gank them, provoke "tears", laugh, and then request they go back to hi sec. Then it's back to incessant whining and complaining that no one wants to play with them. Rinse and repeat.

Quoted for emphasis.

That has been my exact experience. The first time I hit low, I was trying to run something silly like a Level 2 mission in a Thrasher. I knew it was 'more dangerous' out there, but that was about it. I cleared the mission, and a Jaguar popped into the deadspace. He locked me, I tried to warp to the gate, but he had me scrammed in no time. Popped me easily. Sends me a message, 10 million isk ransom for my pod. At the time I think I had maybe 15 mill banked. I told him I wouldn't pay, to just blow me up and get it over with.

He got pissed, because he thought I'd have a bunch of cybernetics I'd want to save. At the time, all I had was the starters I'd gotten from the Career agents, so I considered them free. I told him this, and he issued a string of profanities because his deal wasn't going to get paid. Called me a n00b, told me to go back to 'bearing' (which I didn't understand at the time). He promptly sent a couple rounds through the hull of my pod.

That was my first experience in low, and my first run in with this wanker mindset. The 'elite peeveepeers' sharpen their claws on the weak, the uninformed, the unprepared. While simultaneously berating them for being uninformed or unprepared. For bringing a mission fit to a PvP fight. For daring to fly a T1 destroyer around the same space as an Assault Frigate worth 10,000 times as much. Et cetera.

I've been back a few times, exploring. But I've neither the time nor inclination for their PvP game. I just want to see the sights, and pop a few rats before I have to go back to real life. Leave me be. I've got no beef with you. Don't be pissed at me for missioning in hi-sec, when you clearly have no need or want of me in low, aside from your constant preening. You're not worth my time.
Famble
Three's a Crowd
#108 - 2011-11-11 15:54:18 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Famble wrote:
Time.

There's no place for a casual player in null. None.

LIE


I've seen the light! You recruiting? I only have an hour or two most weeknights. "What's that? You need us all online next Wednesday at 10?" Oh there's an emergency and you need me to come right now? "Sorry brotini, I'd love to but no can do."

Or:

"Ok, I'm here let's do this!"

5 minutes later

"Dudes, sorry but I gotta go! Something came up!"

In mmo's I've played back when I had time I'd see to it that guy was removed from clan/corp/guild

In hi-sec, though, no problem.

I aint looking for huge benefits as a casual, I don't deserve them. But don't wee on my back and tell me it's raining by suggesting a casual can move to null. Can't be done.

If anyone ever looks at you and says,_ "Hold my beer, watch this,"_  you're probably going to want to pay attention.
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#109 - 2011-11-11 16:06:06 UTC
Famble wrote:

I've seen the light! You recruiting? I only have an hour or two most weeknights. "What's that? You need us all online next Wednesday at 10?" Oh there's an emergency and you need me to come right now? "Sorry brotini, I'd love to but no can do."

Or:

"Ok, I'm here let's do this!"

5 minutes later

"Dudes, sorry but I gotta go! Something came up!"

In mmo's I've played back when I had time I'd see to it that guy was removed from clan/corp/guild

In hi-sec, though, no problem.

I aint looking for huge benefits as a casual, I don't deserve them. But don't wee on my back and tell me it's raining by suggesting a casual can move to null. Can't be done.


The benefits of being an hardcore PvP player in EvE living in null sec:

- alarm clocks to make you get up at specific times to fall asleep later on while shooting a POS
- getting your reading/film watching up to date while camping a gate waiting for some action
- spending either real life money buying plex to finance your pvp or be called a bear by your alliance and rat/anom to fund it
- big huge fights with thousands of players where you mindlessly only just lock/shoot whatever you're told like a robot
- big huge fights where you many times either get DC to log back in dead, or take loads of time to even move not even shooting something
- mandatory objectives (like X kills/month/week/whatever) just so you keep doing the above

There are many others, there's also advantages obviously, but those are subjective to personal taste of each one.

IMO what needs most changing to cater people in null is not really any game changing, but a mentality changing on big alliances/corps in null over how things are taken/handled etc.
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#110 - 2011-11-11 16:07:49 UTC
Hard to take the topic seriously when it suggests creating things in highsec is more intellectually challenging than doing anything in nulsec ;D I know I sure use all of my mental resources to look up how to run every mission with 100% safety. Or to set up a research POS and let it do its thing day after day without having to worry about any kind of protection for it. ;D Traveling is also so much more challenging in highsec because instead of just zooming through bubbles like I do in Nulsec I have to worry that transporting 4 billion ISK worth of PLEX in my shuttle might get me killed. :P

You are right though, the problem is not the mechanics, it is the players. I am not someone who thinks everyone has to go to lowesec or nulsec. But it is most definitely their non risk taking personalities that prevents them from going there. Playing this game in highsec to earn ISK to buy better ways to make ISK is a never ending cycle. Some people like that! Some don't :D

The real thing we are arguing about is how forced should people be to participate in PvP. I don't think they should be forced into nulsec, but highsec should be a lot slower to make monies in.

Ferox #1
TeraDmc
TeraCorp Elite Sardaukar Guard
#111 - 2011-11-11 16:15:19 UTC
Agree with OP 100%
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2011-11-11 16:26:24 UTC
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Zagam wrote:
Its not hard to get into nullsec. Not everyone is out to scam you, and while CTAs do happen, they are the exception, not the rule.

Here is my quick, 4-point method for getting into nullsec:
1. Get your head out of your butt.
2. Use the recruitment tool in-game.
3. ???
4. Profit!


LoL

Look 1) can be done, the thing is many did the other way around, got their head out of their butt and went back to high sec due to how ppl play null.

2) no idea if it works or not, I never tried it, still, there's always room for scamming everywhere, recruitment tool or channel, doesn't really matter, there will always be a goonlike trying to take advantage of a new player, and then when he get's the cold harsh truth of how things work he either won't repeat it ever (try to be recruited), or leave the game.

3) just shows how ignorant you are about human behavior over games this ain't WoW, you can't really mash keyboard and expect results specially in null, many have brought up several key issues why null is a nuisance, the objectives, the blobs, the cta's the name calling on anyone not a 23/7 pvper, the inability to join corps because they require high experience (except Goons but then, you can't join them either because you'll be scammed for sure), so either you start playing this game with an established bunch of friends or the majority of the new players will stay high sec all the time (read majority).

4) profit can happen everywhere, you can choose where pending how much arsed about it you want to be.


Let me clarify a bit (based on personal experience):

1. Get your head out of your butt - don't think you will dominate stuff because you are "awesome". EVE is somewhat unique, that while your ship and gear is important, what is more important is HOW you fly it, and WHO you fly it with. I've seen frigates tear BCs apart. I've also seen a single BC destroy several frigs solo. Also, don't fly what you can't afford to lose. This means don't fly a Machariel in PvP unless you have half a dozen of them sitting in a station nearby, and several billion liquid ISK.

2. Use the recruitment tool in-game. - I found both of my last 2 corps via the recruitment tool in-game. I looked them up on there. Read their info and such in-game, and also searched them up on google. I looked at their reputation, their killboard, and a few of their members. I also talked with them via their public channel BEFORE I put in an application. In the case of my current corp, I also researched their alliance. My primary concerns with all of this research... will I fit in here? Are their goals similar to mine? Will I be able to grow and learn? Are they douchebags?

Yes, it takes time, and some effort, but its worth it.

3. ???? : I was totally being a smarta** here. I'm very familiar with psychology, and MMOs in general (EVE was my 3rd MMO to try, and the one I've come back to 3 times now... I've since played 6 MMOs). I've led/been CEO in corps/guilds/whatever you want to call them. I've been a raid leader. EVE is an absurdly complex game, with a near-vertical learning curve. I learn something new every time I play. At the same time, I know my limitations (like all players should). The people who get screwed over in null tend to not know their limitations, or if they do, they won't acknowledge them. Anyone who says they know everything about EVE is either delusional, or trolling you.

4. Profit!: You are right on with your statement here. Profit in EVE is directly proportional to effort. If you log in daily, and only PvP, your ISK profit will stink, but your knowledge of how to fly ships (and kill ships) in EVE will be very good. If you work your arse off trading and ratting/mining, then your profit in ISK will be great. To each their own. Null offers better opportunities for nearly everything than empire does (with the notable exception of station trading - that works better in empire due to volume). That said, greater profits require greater risk. If you want to learn how to PvP effectively, you have to lose a few ships. If you want to make a killer profit station trading, you have to plop down some hard ISK as seed money. Its all about risk vs. reward.

I hope that clarifies my post a bit, albeit in many more words than the initial post.
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#113 - 2011-11-11 16:27:44 UTC
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Famble wrote:

I've seen the light! You recruiting? I only have an hour or two most weeknights. "What's that? You need us all online next Wednesday at 10?" Oh there's an emergency and you need me to come right now? "Sorry brotini, I'd love to but no can do."

Or:

"Ok, I'm here let's do this!"

5 minutes later

"Dudes, sorry but I gotta go! Something came up!"

In mmo's I've played back when I had time I'd see to it that guy was removed from clan/corp/guild

In hi-sec, though, no problem.

I aint looking for huge benefits as a casual, I don't deserve them. But don't wee on my back and tell me it's raining by suggesting a casual can move to null. Can't be done.


The benefits of being an hardcore PvP player in EvE living in null sec:

- alarm clocks to make you get up at specific times to fall asleep later on while shooting a POS
- getting your reading/film watching up to date while camping a gate waiting for some action
- spending either real life money buying plex to finance your pvp or be called a bear by your alliance and rat/anom to fund it
- big huge fights with thousands of players where you mindlessly only just lock/shoot whatever you're told like a robot
- big huge fights where you many times either get DC to log back in dead, or take loads of time to even move not even shooting something
- mandatory objectives (like X kills/month/week/whatever) just so you keep doing the above

There are many others, there's also advantages obviously, but those are subjective to personal taste of each one.

IMO what needs most changing to cater people in null is not really any game changing, but a mentality changing on big alliances/corps in null over how things are taken/handled etc.


Have you EVER lived in nullsec? I mean, seriously... its not like that. And if it is, you're in the wrong alliance/corp.
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#114 - 2011-11-11 16:29:01 UTC
There is so much misinformation here, that its no wonder people don't want to go to null...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#115 - 2011-11-11 16:32:14 UTC
Plain and simple, EvE is PVP.

If you don't want PVP, do two simple things:
1. do not undock, EVER.
2. do not open the market/contracts, EVER.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Saiyon
R3X.FW
#116 - 2011-11-11 16:43:46 UTC
Are people in null-sec running out of targets?

Surely null is about destroying other alliances etc.

Maybe the people in null just aren't fighting with the other people in null?

At the end of this winter the community wants another one of those cool youtube vids where some alliance gets completely destroyed.

Impress us players of null-sec and make us want to be part of those historical EvE events.

In the meantime i'll keep learning how to PvP in FW :)
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#117 - 2011-11-11 16:49:33 UTC
Zagam wrote:

Have you EVER lived in nullsec? I mean, seriously... its not like that. And if it is, you're in the wrong alliance/corp.


Zagam wrote:

There is so much misinformation here, that its no wonder people don't want to go to null...


Really dude, stop with the condescending tone like if your truth is the only truth out there.

We all speak of our experience, and I've experienced pretty much all you can in null, and the big majority of my null life is/was what I described, you might have other experience, I won't call your alliance as an argument about what you perceive to be one reality because that would deviate to the crux of the subject.

There are exceptions ? yes obviously they are, pretty sure if you dwell quite inside DRF space you'll be able to bear/bot all your way without any repercussions or other quieter zones in null, but were talking here is the constant QQ of the null sec dwellers that there's no targets and force people go into null, well, make them instead of whining.

My points there you commented upon are a reply to the subject of hardcore players in null that some fundamentalists believe to be absolute, which is not true, was pretty ironical (in which you failed to detect) but at the same time isn't far away from the truth.

Save your condescending tone for local smack talk with TEST.
Ilkahn
Ideal Mechanisms
#118 - 2011-11-11 17:08:42 UTC
Famble wrote:
Time.

There's no place for a casual player in null. None.

If null is effectively endgame, and endgame requires a large, consistent time commitment (it has in every mmo I've ever played), and most Eve players are casual then I'm pretty sure we've arrived at the ultimate stalemate.


I totally disagree with you on that. there are lots of areas of 0.0 lightly populated or travel zones that the casual player can exist in. The issue is that survival in 0.0 sometimes means waiting. Some folks don't like to sit doing nothing, and it's perfectly acceptable to be like that. Many of us though, get up and go for a long walk or do something around the house waiting for the obsticle to clear. Or to be that obsticle keeping others from doing things.

A solo nuet is no danger if you are fleeted and have some buds though. Eve is about team player goals really. Even in hi sec many folks have 3-4 alts to accomplish things. Why not join a group? It's much more fun.
Gerald Taric
NEO DYNAMICS
#119 - 2011-11-11 17:09:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerald Taric
Cygnus Deguo'ren wrote:

There is only ONE simple solution what would turn me into a wolf in 0.0 - Make EVE a free open market economy! That means let me cash out my ISK back to real money.

Then EVE would become a real tough game! Twisted
.. and you will gain another challenge in REAL LIVE. Because of you then being able to earn real money within the game by carry it out to real live, this money is liable for taxation (as far as i know). This discussion has already arisen in conjunction with "Second live", if i remember right.

Not mentioned all the other juridical challenges, which will came up then ...
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2011-11-11 17:09:34 UTC
Famble wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Famble wrote:
Time.

There's no place for a casual player in null. None.

LIE


I've seen the light! You recruiting? I only have an hour or two most weeknights. "What's that? You need us all online next Wednesday at 10?" Oh there's an emergency and you need me to come right now? "Sorry brotini, I'd love to but no can do."

Or:

"Ok, I'm here let's do this!"

5 minutes later

"Dudes, sorry but I gotta go! Something came up!"

our corp is exactly this type Lol
me personally log on every day for like 1-2 hours to do my PI mega-project.
- "Hi there! What's new?"
- "Come on TS, Incoming neurals!"
- "oh.... it's too lazy..... say to those guys "get out" =)"
- "Ok :D"
... some time after
- "I'm off to Fallout 3. Good luck! :D"
- "see you"
Lol

but i'm sorry mate. I only recruit people who already have RL friend in corp. I'm too lazy to do full recruiting investigation....Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"