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What is the role of lowsec?

Author
XIRUSPHERE
In Bacon We Trust
#21 - 2011-11-11 06:46:56 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
MeestaPenni wrote:
Every time I think, "it should be fairly easy for a moderately large corporation to exert significant influence in these solar systems." I have yet to see it happening.

There's no profit in doing so. The game gives no advantage to doing so, currently. So there's little reason for large corps to bother.

I'm not saying my proposal gives much more advantage, but it does offer some advantage to claiming and controlling systems. There is the e-peen factor (which cannot be understated), plus the benefits of safer travel (the police system) and planetary control.


I can tell you with a straight face that travel in lowsec is near perfectly safe if you pay attention and do it right, if you're just moving from point to point any frigate with a nano will do it for the most part. If you want to move something bigger it takes no more effort than Cloak+mwd and you really have to screw that one up to get caught even in a fully plated battleship.

Personally I have seen lowsec be the stepping stone to null countless times for friends and enemies alike and most if not all of them step into the faceless meat grinder of null and quite a few don't like it. I have also seen plenty of creativity and conflict derived from terms the players set, truly emergent game play where you know your neighbors and do battle with them for good reason. You can make pretty good isk from anomalies and killer isk from agents that give superior rewards for the risk involved but nothing as contrived and ridiculous as the exploitation of incursions and other near risk free ventures in high sec.

If you open low sec up to being controlled it's just going to be enveloped by hordes of lemmings who are only interested in kill mail mining and having space just to spite your face.

The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.

One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-11-11 07:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
XIRUSPHERE wrote:
I can tell you with a straight face that travel in lowsec is near perfectly safe if you pay attention and do it right, if you're just moving from point to point any frigate with a nano will do it for the most part. If you want to move something bigger it takes no more effort than Cloak+mwd .

I know. I'm perfectly comfortable moving around in lowsec. I do all my PI in lowsec, and after hundreds of trips in an Iteron III, have only lost two of them. I also find it disappointing to see less than 10 people in local when I jump into Rancer. I love travelling in lowsec. But there's very little point to doing so.

Quote:
... nothing as contrived and ridiculous as the exploitation of incursions and other near risk free ventures in high sec.

Could not agree more.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-11 07:12:57 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Yeah there is. There is a bunch of Novels Short Stories, Chronicles and News Articles everywhere and CCP rarely negates on it or changes it.
For those hooked on issues of lore: how to explain the sudden appearance of NPC nullsec that borders all the racial empires? The Sansha won some 30-40 systems of space. This becomes the new NPC nullsec.
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#24 - 2011-11-11 07:23:13 UTC
I generally think of it like this:

Hi sec is optimized for individual players
Null sec is optimized for large alliances
Wormholes are optimized for small or medium corps
Low sec is optimized for small gangs

That isn't 100% true. There are certainy some large alliances that thrive in hi sec and some individuals that do very well in null sec and so on, but IMO that is what uses those types of space lean towards. To me, that diversity is the coolest thing about eve. It means I have a whole menu of literally 100s of different ways to play the game I can choose between. Just dumbing the game down to basically just one way to play the game- as a peon in a big sov alliance- would totally ruin it. Honestly, from the posts we get here from null sec inhabitants sometimes I get the impression that many of you just don't ever experience the wider universe. It's like you have blinders on and can only see your own little slice of the game.... Your suggestions always seem to boil down to "make everybody play the way I do"... Why? That's great you find that style of play the most fun. More power to you. But that's only like 5% of what EvE has to offer. There is no reason to just blank out the other 95% for no real reason.
Alara IonStorm
#25 - 2011-11-11 08:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Yeah there is. There is a bunch of Novels Short Stories, Chronicles and News Articles everywhere and CCP rarely negates on it or changes it.
For those hooked on issues of lore: how to explain the sudden appearance of NPC nullsec that borders all the racial empires? The Sansha won some 30-40 systems of space. This becomes the new NPC nullsec.

First off Null Sec was discovered by a series of secretly built gates called Smugglers Gates not controlled by the Empires but built by the Pirate Factions to gain access to the Empires. They were mapped out after being discovered by a 3 Ship Mercenary team who informed Concord.

Sansha did not win these regions they colonized them. After the Empires destroyed the Nation they were thought to have abandoned these systems. The Empires had no idea the Sansha were rebuilding since they left Sansha's Empire in ruins. As far as they were concerned it was just a few stations and an inconsequential fleet out there till the the Nation began to rise again.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-11-11 08:41:02 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
First off Null Sec was discovered by a series of secretly built gates called Smugglers Gates not controlled by the Empires but built by the Pirate Factions to gain access to the Empires. They were mapped out after being discovered by a 3 Ship Mercenary team who informed Concord.

Sansha did not win these regions they colonized them. After the Empires destroyed the Nation they were thought to have abandoned these systems. The Empires had no idea the Sansha were rebuilding since they left Sansha's Empire in ruins. As far as they were concerned it was just a few stations and an inconsequential fleet out there till the the Nation began to rise again.

Zzzzz....
Alara IonStorm
#27 - 2011-11-11 08:45:04 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

Zzzzz....

If you are too bored by the very large amount of Lore to read it then perhaps you should not try to use it in an argument.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-11-11 08:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

Zzzzz....

If you are too bored by the very large amount of Lore to read it then perhaps you should not try to use it in an argument.

CCP will do whatever they hell they want. Lore is endlessly mutable (which why I don't see any point in holding a candle to it.) It's CCP Dropbear's job to come up with the lore justification to please you. And you'll eat it up no matter.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-11-11 09:14:35 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Every time I think, "it should be fairly easy for a moderately large corporation to exert significant influence in these solar systems." I have yet to see it happening.


Contrary to your limited Lowsec experience there are quite a fair amount of midsized corporations that live in deep lowsec. They control the HQ systems and most systems 3-4 jumps around it. They occasionally war with there neighbors, but are also perfectly happy just harvesting lowsec Complex's, or missioning for ISK. Maintaining a grip on the surrounding systems when they get bored and roaming around.

There is a small yet active world of lowsec you do not see, and they like it that way.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-

Alara IonStorm
#30 - 2011-11-11 09:20:33 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

CCP will do whatever they hell they want. Lore is endlessly mutable (which why I don't see any point in holding a candle to it.) It's CCP Dropbear's job to come up with the lore justification to please you. And you'll eat it up no matter.

I will remember that for when they glide on past your idea and stick to the lore.

I sure will eat that up.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#31 - 2011-11-11 09:55:55 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
[quote=Poetic Stanziel]Every time I think, "it should be fairly easy for a moderately large corporation to exert significant influence in these solar systems." I have yet to see it happening.

It might be your particular area of lowsec is completely worthless. Either lack of "natural" resources, or not enough traffic to interest PVP corps.

Non-PVP corps have a really hard time controlling lowsec, because you really need to lose sec to exert that control, and you end up outlaw and cut off from highsec.

Also keep in mind lowsec control is not like 0.0 sov, where it's obvious who owns a system. It's a lot more subtle, and it can change through the day if several corps in different timezones share a system.

About the role it should play, I'd say it's fine now. It's a fun PVP arena without the commitment and logistics of 0.0 warfare. You can usually find fights close to home. If you get bored or RL interferes, you can dock up in most systems. And you are right next to highsec for resupply.

What it needs is more people looking for fights. Some way to attract the more casual PVPers would be nice. Lowering the penalties for lowsec combat, for example.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2011-11-11 10:02:08 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

Zzzzz....

If you are too bored by the very large amount of Lore to read it then perhaps you should not try to use it in an argument.

CCP will do whatever they hell they want. Lore is endlessly mutable (which why I don't see any point in holding a candle to it.) It's CCP Dropbear's job to come up with the lore justification to please you. And you'll eat it up no matter.

so what your question was about?Lol

you asked, you got answer, you don't like it.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2011-11-11 10:06:44 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

Zzzzz....

If you are too bored by the very large amount of Lore to read it then perhaps you should not try to use it in an argument.

CCP will do whatever they hell they want. Lore is endlessly mutable (which why I don't see any point in holding a candle to it.) It's CCP Dropbear's job to come up with the lore justification to please you. And you'll eat it up no matter.
you asked, you got answer, you don't like it.
Lore is never a primary concern when it comes to designing game mechanics. They just rely on their story/lore guy to come up with the justification for any changes. Relying on lore to predict game changes is, well, silly.

When CCP gets around to doing the complete revamp of lowsec that they've said is necessary, I doubt lore will be at the forefront of any of their design and development meetings. They'll simply rely on CCP Dropbear to explain it all RP-style to the lorehuggers afterwards.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-11-11 11:05:13 UTC
Now low sec is unnecessary danger, also a hide out for negative security status.

If low sec was extreme Danger and very generous rewards, then hell yes, low sec - place for adventures, risk, piracy.

Today's low sec is like Tundra. Nothing to be had, nothing to be seen, empty empty space. Occasional prey and predator.

If low sec was flourishing like Jungle, with lots of resources, lots of promise, myriad of competitors - then it would be hazardous and rewarding, fun and dangerous.

If low sec was like Desert - rewarding, but not crowded, mysterious and uncharted, with occasional bandits, hubs, and certain protection - then it would be perfect.

To create a low sec hub - you'd need pay to protect sentries and hired Navy. Example, you set out extra sentries and assign navy ships to protect a station for a high fee. Traders can come, people can come, but no bullies outside, because of paid bodyguards. Such places would prosper.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#35 - 2011-11-11 12:46:43 UTC
Quote:
To create a low sec hub - you'd need pay to protect sentries and hired Navy. Example, you set out extra sentries and assign navy ships to protect a station for a high fee. Traders can come, people can come, but no bullies outside, because of paid bodyguards. Such places would prosper.


So you would turn lowsec into an NPC-run theme park?

Station camping in lowsec only catches the unprepared. Operate out of stations with a generous undock radius, make proper instaundock bookmarks, and you are 99% safe (the remaining 1% is undock blackscreen). Lowsec hubs don't really work large scale, but that's because it's easier and cheaper to just go to the highsec hub (or send an alt if you are outlaw).

The risk/reward ratio in lowsec is fine, for the people willing to live in lowsec. People who will PVE in PVP fits, missing a little isk/hr but happy to get the occasional fight.

Lowsec does not need more NPCs and carebears, it needs more PVPers.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-11-11 12:47:35 UTC
low sec is there for killing trespasser with supers or titan bridged 200 man fleets.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#37 - 2011-11-11 12:55:48 UTC
lowsec is for stomping on FW.

Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#38 - 2011-11-11 13:48:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Swordfingers
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
...But I think there is still a substantial proportion of players who would leave highsec for lowsec if they have some control over the systems they were interested in...


If there would really be a that substantial portion of players, they would go to null and claim the control over the systems, but still, most of null is deserted because (suprise, suprise!) the substantial portion of players doesn't want to get involved with politics and other nonsense connected with control of space. Low should be for people who want to simply log on and shoot without any headaches.
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#39 - 2011-11-11 13:55:20 UTC
Provide a no-mans-land between CONCORD and RMTer space where other RMTer can interupt suport lines.

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-11-11 14:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
If you want to populate low sec more you have to make getting into it easier.

I'm curious as to how effective adding NPC Navy (not Concord) ships would be to the 0.4/0.3 boarder systems that directly connect to high sec in order to give a semi-illusion of security at the gates.

I certainly don't want NPC Police in all of low sec, but currently the difference between 0.5 and 0.4 isn't a small shift, it's a massive brick wall, and I think that scares a large portion of highsec'ers away.

If you made getting into and (back out of) the boarder systems easier, then it might encourage more people to go exploring.

Hopefully those people who find the boarder systems less scary than they imagined would actually then explore more of the less safe low sec systems.


Of course, the ironic thing about EVE is that the pirates who want more targets in low sec operate in such a way that it deters people from going in the first place. Bit like poachers in Africa, eventually they'll cause their prey to be so rare if not extinct that by their actions, they'll destroy their own livelihood and money income.