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Wardec mechanics -- Well needed changes
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Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#41 - 2014-02-27 23:53:17 UTC
Merchant Ally wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Some highsec wardecs are about shooting each other, but the motivation to defend rather than evade you simply doesn't EXIST.


I wonder how many times in how many forms have I tried to explain that...

Well if you're not motivated to defend your stuff, can you just give it to me instead, before someone else takes it.

Sorry, the right to ask me for my stuff is reserved for intelligent people.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Merchant Ally
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-02-28 00:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Merchant Ally
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Merchant Ally wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Some highsec wardecs are about shooting each other, but the motivation to defend rather than evade you simply doesn't EXIST.


I wonder how many times in how many forms have I tried to explain that...

Well if you're not motivated to defend your stuff, can you just give it to me instead, before someone else takes it.


Tell us, if I wardec you today, what stuff of yours can I "take"?

That's the point, you can evade me extremely easy, you can get all your "stuff" safe, thereby leaving nothing to take. If there is nothing of yours for me to take, what are you motivated to defend?


If you stay docked in station all week I am taking subscription time from you.
One plex is ~650m, 1/4 of 650m is roughly 160m, so that's 160m per character, docked up in station playing skill queue online. People should be motivated to defend that game-time rather than just leave corp and carry on with business as usual. A 48hr timer upon leaving corp would motivate people to defend their corps more rather than just jumping ship.
On a second note, we should be able to wardec individuals too, even those in NPC corps.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#43 - 2014-02-28 01:14:21 UTC
Merchant Ally wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Merchant Ally wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Some highsec wardecs are about shooting each other, but the motivation to defend rather than evade you simply doesn't EXIST.


I wonder how many times in how many forms have I tried to explain that...

Well if you're not motivated to defend your stuff, can you just give it to me instead, before someone else takes it.


Tell us, if I wardec you today, what stuff of yours can I "take"?

That's the point, you can evade me extremely easy, you can get all your "stuff" safe, thereby leaving nothing to take. If there is nothing of yours for me to take, what are you motivated to defend?


If you stay docked in station all week I am taking subscription time from you.
One plex is ~650m, 1/4 of 650m is roughly 160m, so that's 160m per character, docked up in station playing skill queue online. People should be motivated to defend that game-time rather than just leave corp and carry on with business as usual. A 48hr timer upon leaving corp would motivate people to defend their corps more rather than just jumping ship.
On a second note, we should be able to wardec individuals too, even those in NPC corps.


Why would I stay docked all week. I can just drop to an NPC corp. I can join an alternate corp, etc, etc, etc.

Some people fight for the experience, some people fight for the fun of it, some people will simply attempt to avoid you. Generally speaking, a wardec does little to motivate a person to fight unless they have something to fight for.


Koffin Nail
Vinnell Corporation
#44 - 2014-02-28 02:29:26 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Teach pvp... pvp... pvp... pvp, have corps for pvp... pvp... pvp...



And if the player paying $15 per month has no interest in pvp? or Learning how to pvp? Or wasting skill points in pvp?

This isn't about prodding players in the direction of pvp. As many of you wish to believe, the game doesn't revolve around pvp. There are many players that never even undock, yet are online 8-10 hours a day playing the indy aspects (Market, research, industry).

Leave the protection of Concord and you'll find all the pvp you desire. If you're too chicken ****, that's your problem.
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#45 - 2014-02-28 02:57:58 UTC
Koffin Nail wrote:

And if the player paying $15 per month has no interest in pvp? or Learning how to pvp? Or wasting skill points in pvp?

I dont care what you do with your skill points and my plan would allow you to join an existing corp who has the pvp sp to start it in the first place. It just would let You build some little bear corp that will turn around and whine the moment you get dec'd.
Koffin Nail wrote:
This isn't about prodding players in the direction of pvp. As many of you wish to believe, the game doesn't revolve around pvp. There are many players that never even undock, yet are online 8-10 hours a day playing the indy aspects (Market, research, industry).

Its not a prod it is another tutorial, the most important tutorial for teaching people how to survive outside a station. you can choose not to finish it. Of course everything that you do in a station all day revolves around pvp. market pvp. research, production to provide content for pvp. Ask yourself: what is your goal? To have as much fake money as you can? Do you actually enjoy pretending to have a real life? Do you wish you could build real stuff, trade real stock? The whole game is pvp. We cant blow stuff up in real life, that is why we all play spaceship pvp, it is a release. and that makes it relaxing.
Koffin Nail wrote:
Leave the protection of Concord and you'll find all the pvp you desire. If you're too chicken ****, that's your problem.

you call me chicken to leave high sec, and my kill board says your an idiot. are you too chicken to leave the station? Your kill board says you are.

or are you just another Basil carebear Troll wanna be alpha male forum warrior? thats pvp too, but your the only one who thinks they are winning.
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#46 - 2014-02-28 03:06:42 UTC
Koffin Nail wrote:
And if the player paying $15 per month has no interest in pvp? or Learning how to pvp? Or wasting skill points in pvp?

Minecraft has a one time cost and is free thereafter, you could save some money & build something that you can appreciate not just all us bad pvpers. You should make the switch.
Merchant Ally
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-02-28 08:42:40 UTC
Koffin Nail wrote:
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Teach pvp... pvp... pvp... pvp, have corps for pvp... pvp... pvp...


As many of you wish to believe, the game doesn't revolve around pvp.


Oh yes it does, dolt. CCP have stated it many times. In fact, the only way you could play EVE in an entirely PvP free experience is to run missions and live off the bounty ticks and ISK rewards, never looting, salvaging or spending a single loyalty point.

-Looting wrecks? It's up to you to get those mods to station before the other guy does and sells them first, using up that better buy
order.

-Salvaging wrecks? Best hurry up before someone else does it instead (though ninja-salvaging has been nerfed quite a bit over the years), if you're successful in salvage see point no. 1

-Farming LP? Better farm it first before everyone else does and drives down the prices of those nice new SOE ships, which is happening as we speak.

-Mining? See point no. 1

Just because you're not directly shooting another player does not mean you aren't playing against him/her.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#48 - 2014-02-28 11:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
Merchant Ally wrote:
Koffin Nail wrote:
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Teach pvp... pvp... pvp... pvp, have corps for pvp... pvp... pvp...


As many of you wish to believe, the game doesn't revolve around pvp.


Oh yes it does, dolt. CCP have stated it many times. In fact, the only way you could play EVE in an entirely PvP free experience is to run missions and live off the bounty ticks and ISK rewards, never looting, salvaging or spending a single loyalty point.

-Looting wrecks? It's up to you to get those mods to station before the other guy does and sells them first, using up that better buy
order.

-Salvaging wrecks? Best hurry up before someone else does it instead (though ninja-salvaging has been nerfed quite a bit over the years), if you're successful in salvage see point no. 1

-Farming LP? Better farm it first before everyone else does and drives down the prices of those nice new SOE ships, which is happening as we speak.

-Mining? See point no. 1

Just because you're not directly shooting another player does not mean you aren't playing against him/her.


Let me clarify, dear Koffin meant that the game does not revolve around Combat PvP.
This part is isolated, locked out by the grand wall of half-decade worth of SP, and generally lacks incentive to do it due to questionable profitability, inevitable loss of implants (which increases the wall height), and limiting the freedom of movement by having kill rights on you or having to choose a remote and/or dangerous location for a living. I can see why people who chose that way are crying - they're free to do it - but the way they belittle other professions, declare their profession to be better or more important, or go bonkers like Feyd/James315 and interpret itchy sensation in their behinds as a call of both god and evolution at the same time - is the wrong way.

Playing against other people is fine. No carebear denies that. (Even though there are flaws in your reasoning - you can refine or fit the loot on yourself, using materials mined/salvaged/refined building stuff for yourself, and using LP for yourself. That way you will live in a form of natural economy and competition ain't part of that, but whatever)

What people you call carebears deny is that they have any obligation to shoot other players. PvP may come to them, there be losses. Well, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule is there for that moment. However, carebears are in equal right to cry when getting PvP to them becomes too easy, like the way we have it now. One of the instruments of getting it too easy is grief dec, mistakenly called war dec. And until it is used for war, and not to remove hisec from selected targets and running scared if somebody joins the "war", I shall call it grief dec, and call for rework of it that denies easy targets from double risk averse fearbears who are too HTFU-averse to already easy enough task of ganking the bear.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#49 - 2014-02-28 12:40:18 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Let me clarify, dear Koffin meant that the game does not revolve around Combat PvP.
This part is isolated, locked out by the grand wall of half-decade worth of SP, and generally lacks incentive to do it due to questionable profitability, inevitable loss of implants (which increases the wall height), and limiting the freedom of movement by having kill rights on you or having to choose a remote and/or dangerous location for a living.
No you are wrong again. I have been doing pvp since I joined the game 7 months ago. I have never lost implants in high or low sec because I know how to spam the warp button to an appropriate celestial. you cant get kill rights in low sec. As far as profitability... what do you have left to spend money on? I mean you already have your maxed out shiny mining / support ships and full head of mining implants. What now? train that infomorph skill up get some new clones and some ships and go learn how to use them. Dollar has and isk value, But isk DOES NOT have a dollar value. You are never going to cash out, you are never going to use that fake money for anything except this game.

Basil Pupkin wrote:
Playing against other people is fine. No carebear denies that. (Even though there are flaws in your reasoning - you can refine or fit the loot on yourself, using materials mined/salvaged/refined building stuff for yourself, and using LP for yourself. That way you will live in a form of natural economy and competition ain't part of that, but whatever)
What pray tell are you going to build, buy and use yourself? Dont you already have all the mining equipment you need? are you gonna buy shiny ships so you can only station spin them? See these flaws in your reasoning yet?

Basil Pupkin wrote:
What people you call carebears deny is that they have any obligation to shoot other players. PvP may come to them, there be losses. Well, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule is there for that moment. However, carebears are in equal right to cry when getting PvP to them becomes too easy, like the way we have it now. One of the instruments of getting it too easy is grief dec, mistakenly called war dec. And until it is used for war, and not to remove hisec from selected targets and running scared if somebody joins the "war", I shall call it grief dec, and call for rework of it that denies easy targets from double risk averse fearbears who are too HTFU-averse to already easy enough task of ganking the bear.
war decs have already been nerfed and carebears have been buffed more then was ever necessary. This is known. You create gankers, because you want to destroy their game even more,, forcing them to seek revenge against all carebears. because of you,, non concesual pvp is starting to look so much more appealing. I am thinking of switching professions myself.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#50 - 2014-02-28 14:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
JetStream Drenard wrote:
No you are wrong again. I have been doing pvp since I joined the game 7 months ago. I have never lost implants in high or low sec because I know how to spam the warp button to an appropriate celestial. you cant get kill rights in low sec. As far as profitability... what do you have left to spend money on? I mean you already have your maxed out shiny mining / support ships and full head of mining implants. What now? train that infomorph skill up get some new clones and some ships and go learn how to use them. Dollar has and isk value, But isk DOES NOT have a dollar value. You are never going to cash out, you are never going to use that fake money for anything except this game.

I afraid it's you who are wrong.
1) Profitability is needed not to buy ships, but to REPLACE them. Unless you are in an alliance which does that for you, you're screwed.
2) I have all the infomorph skills required and full set of clones. What I don't have include half-decade amount of useless pvp SP, and any incentive to join the fray of people blowing each other up for e-peen. There are better parts of sandbox to explore than that one.
3) Isk does have dollar value, since subscription takes either $ or (atm) 652mil ISK. It's not exactly cashing out, but it is preventing obligatory cash-in, and as such, it has $ value.
4) Mining for profit ceased to exist once Odyssey crashed on it.

JetStream Drenard wrote:
What pray tell are you going to build, buy and use yourself? Dont you already have all the mining equipment you need? are you gonna buy shiny ships so you can only station spin them? See these flaws in your reasoning yet?

Gooby pls. I merely pointed out the possibility to never play against other players does exist within eve. I did not say it is a viable way to do it, neither suggested actually doing it, just pointed it out that if people were not wishing to interact with others at all, that is the way they would've lived.
Secondly, I did not even consider mining to be the source of ISK, due to obvious reason of it being extremely poor source of it at the moment. ISK of the hisec player would be spent on L4 ships (which require decent investment) and their replacement (suicide gankers are there and getting bored with collapsing bear to ganker ratio).
So no, a corp would buy shiny ships and spin them on the acceleration gates. Sometimes they will lose them and need replacement ones, which is where the ISK will go. Not to mention that mining equipment needs replacing on account of gankers as well, albeit it being cheaper in case you don't use exhumers above skiff.

JetStream Drenard wrote:
war decs have already been nerfed and carebears have been buffed more then was ever necessary. This is known. You create gankers, because you want to destroy their game even more,, forcing them to seek revenge against all carebears. because of you,, non concesual pvp is starting to look so much more appealing. I am thinking of switching professions myself.

war decs still exist to deny hisec benefits to carefully selected targets to ensure zero risk games against them.
As long as they are used to attack assets (which are still vulnerable as duck to them) it is somehow fine, as long as they are mutual wars - they are completely fine, as long as they are used to attack new players with blobs - they are broken and need rework.
Gankers were always there, it's just that ganking has been buffed a lot with removal-of-consequences tags, ship rebalance, and many other smaller things. Since new war decs seem like a 0.1% risk of target getting allies with 0.1% risk to run into said allies, pansies who can't take squared 0.1% risk switch to ganking, and take their low secstatus characters out of low and null sec to join the lazy side of risk-free suicide gank.
Pansies who can't switch are the crying faces in this thread. I don't mind them, you have the right to cry, but I will point out that your toy still has too many bnefits, and if you are too afraid to play the game, then maybe HTFU?

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#51 - 2014-02-28 15:41:33 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

1) Profitability is needed not to buy ships, but to REPLACE them. Unless you are in an alliance which does that for you, you're screwed.
2) I have all the infomorph skills required and full set of clones. What I don't have include half-decade amount of useless pvp SP, and any incentive to join the fray of people blowing each other up for e-peen. There are better parts of sandbox to explore than that one.
3) Isk does have dollar value, since subscription takes either $ or (atm) 652mil ISK. It's not exactly cashing out, but it is preventing obligatory cash-in, and as such, it has $ value.
4) Mining for profit ceased to exist once Odyssey crashed on it.

1 frigates and cruisers are cheap. You have been market trading for a year... if you are not making several billion a day, then you are doing it wrong. argument nullified.
2 nobody cares whether you want pvp or not. But everyone including CCP does not care, when you try to tell them they cant pvp you just because you dont want to. after weeks, of people explanining it to you, you still cant grasp that. proving you are Trolling. argument nullified.
3 Yes and no. Currency does has isk value. ISK does not have monetary value. The only thing you are losing is pixels. whether or not you can trade isk for plex is irrelevant, as you should be making this much a day by now. and if you somehow can only make a plex every month then every reason you have for playing this game became irrelevant, since it became your only purpose. that being said, the option is still there. point basil.
4 then stop mining and whining about it. nullified by yourself.

Basil Pupkin wrote:

Gooby pls. I merely pointed out the possibility to never play against other players does exist within eve. I did not say it is a viable way to do it, neither suggested actually doing it, just pointed it out that if people were not wishing to interact with others at all, that is the way they would've lived.

hello? Multiplayer game here... every single action you take requires interaction with others. whether you like it or not, interaction can be forced upon you without your approval. This is a fact of life as well. This will never change. argument nullified.

Basil Pupkin wrote:

1 war decs still exist to deny hisec benefits to carefully selected targets to ensure zero risk games against them.
As long as they are used to attack assets (which are still vulnerable as duck to them) it is somehow fine, as long as they are mutual wars - they are completely fine, as long as they are used to attack new players with blobs - they are broken and need rework.
2 Gankers were always there, it's just that ganking has been buffed a lot with removal-of-consequences tags, ship rebalance, and many other smaller things. Since new war decs seem like a 0.1% risk of target getting allies with 0.1% risk to run into said allies, pansies who can't take squared 0.1% risk switch to ganking, and take their low secstatus characters out of low and null sec to join the lazy side of risk-free suicide gank.
3 Pansies who can't switch are the crying faces in this thread. I don't mind them, you have the right to cry, but I will point out that your toy still has too many bnefits, and if you are too afraid to play the game, then maybe HTFU?

1 war is never mutual. Do you seriously think there has ever been a mutual war in history? there is always an initial provocation or resource dispute. argument nullified.
2 laziness of ganking is a matter of perspective. ganking has been NERFED, many times over. You are simply trying to play victim here. Self defense is your number one freedom in game or real life. The more you ask the government or CCP to help you the more complacent and victimized you will become. this is the path to police states and dictatorships. argument nullified.
3 this last bit is the most amusing. It proves that you are a carebear troll and invalidates any reasonable point that you may have. and you pretend like you are being hard, when obviously you are not. If you want to be an alpha male, then sack up and stop playing the victim. People will kill you and steal your stuff in game or real life. deal with it. bait argument nullified.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#52 - 2014-02-28 17:19:52 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
. However, carebears are in equal right to cry when getting PvP to them becomes too easy, like the way we have it now. One of the instruments of getting it too easy is grief dec, mistakenly called war dec. And until it is used for war, and not to remove hisec from selected targets and running scared if somebody joins the "war", I shall call it grief dec, and call for rework of it that denies easy targets from double risk averse fearbears who are too HTFU-averse to already easy enough task of ganking the bear.


although everything else in ur post is fine, the responsibility of being hard to kill falls to the target. if hes going to act like prey, he's going to be prey.

Merchant Ally, do u even have a killboard? wardeccing for pure kills sake is why war decs got nerfed. it wasn't exactly an abuse of the war dec mechanic, but it was an undesirably frequent motivation. If its just pure kills u want, dec marmite or failed. they dnt run or corp hop and they are easy to find. Or roam low sec. or duel ppl. or suicide gank. If u have a vendetta against someone, suicide gank them, steal their cans, bump their barges etc etc

i dnt know how much u can target specific ppl without getting slammed for harassment, but seeing as revenge is supposed to be a thing in eve, im confident CCP will be more generous with some edge cases.

As for war decs, use them to deny operation, break a corp up, destroy their stuff. If ur wardeccing to learn how to pew, there is also FW or other bigger corps who already pew that can teach u.

TL;DR

although wardeccing for the sake of pure kills is fine, it is not the most desirable mechanic for the reasons u put in ur OP. look for kills elsewhere. it looks like u havent even tried wardeccing for any other reason.


basil u think the ship rebalance buffs older players?
the new T1 frigs and cruisers are sexy!

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Merchant Ally
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-02-28 19:56:48 UTC
Daichi wrote:

Merchant Ally, do u even have a killboard?


I mistakenly posted this thread with my alt logged in, this alt may be used for clandestine stuff and therefore disclosing my main and his killboard would be a poor decision. I can however tell you that I'm personally have quite a high ISK and ship efficiency, though recently I've been doing some more risky PvP, which will probably lower efficiency (though who gives a **** about efficiency anyway) but provide much more fun. My (relatively small) corp has a similar efficiency despite being half filled with new players with <10m SP, some <5; these players still do very well in PvP, the whole "Hurr durr half decade 100m esspee char pwn evryfing" argument is a load of bullshit.
If anything should be done to help new players with PvP is to bring insurance cover up to the current almost 200% inflated market compared to 4 years ago. With it being nearly 80m to buy and fit a battlecruiser it's no wonder players are more and more risk averse, in wars 4 years ago targets undocked in BS and fought, now they undock in frigates, because a BS loss is closer to 100m now, rather than 20-30 back then, un-rigged of course.

Daichi wrote:
wardeccing for pure kills sake is why war decs got nerfed. it wasn't exactly an abuse of the war dec mechanic, but it was an undesirably frequent motivation.

Wardeccing got nerfed because carebears cried and cried, wars are for kills, until CCP add some other strategic objective for wars they will always be about ship kills, as previously said shooting POS' and POCOs takes ages and lots of manpower to do, finding a wartarget POS is hard, unless you decced specifically to kill that POS and it is rarely profitable.

Daichi wrote:

If its just pure kills u want, dec marmite or failed. they dnt run or corp hop and they are easy to find.

Marmite and failed will only fight if they are sure they will win, they frequently use neutral logi and usually fight in their super-shiny ships on a station undock. Killing one of them would take a huge amount of manpower; marmite and failed are some of the best hisec PvPers and are relatively large in numbers, for you to get kills (plural) you would have to be some sort of magician.


Daichi wrote:

i dnt know how much u can target specific ppl without getting slammed for harassment, but seeing as revenge is supposed to be a thing in eve, im confident CCP will be more generous with some edge cases.

You can kill them as much as you want for as long as you want, CCP will never tell you to stop. The only exception to this is new players in rookie systems, which, quite frankly is pants-on-head rétarded; these new players should learn that people are out to get them when they are in cheap and disposable ships, not when they're a month old and in their battlecruiser which is basically all they own because nobody told them not to fly what they can't afford to lose.

Daichi wrote:

As for war decs, use them to deny operation, break a corp up, destroy their stuff.

Sure, that's what I do and I love doing it, but when you dec a corp only to have most of it's members melt away into NPC corps before you can even fire a shot, then join back up when the war is over; something is obviously very wrong. CCP have made it more expensive to wardec, but for that extra expenditure you get sweet fúck all. If I'm paying 50x as much as you used to, you'd expect better service, no? The targets can bring in allies, you can't end the war if things go to **** and you cannot bring in any allies yourself. Wardeccing and highsec in general has been nerfed to shít recently and a few small changes to even the balance a little wouldn't go amiss, some form of penalty for dropping corp due to war should be introduced, otherwise the 'Leave corp' button just becomes a get out of PvP free card.
Merchant Ally
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-02-28 19:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Merchant Ally
Daichi wrote:

although wardeccing for the sake of pure kills is fine, it is not the most desirable mechanic for the reasons u put in ur OP. look for kills elsewhere. it looks like u havent even tried wardeccing for any other reason.

Pray tell, what is the most desirable mechanic then? Shooting a POS into the early hours of the morning only for it to go into reinforced so you can come back the next day and do it all again, for menial rewards? Shooting POCOs so you can set your own ones up and play farmville online? Camping that guy in station while he's AFK boning his wife? Are there other things I missed? If so could you please tell me as I'd love to try them!


(Can only quote 5 times in a single post, so I had to double post)
Clementina
University of Caille
#55 - 2014-02-28 20:30:25 UTC
I said it in the last thread and I'll say it in this thread. If you are being griefed by war decs you are playing the game wrong. People that are smart can make money in low-sec or by utilizing alts and are resistant or even immune to war decs. People that are strong can gank the gankers themselves, or if rich, pay someone else to do it. People that are weak can hide under the table in their captain's quarters while their operations are neglected and their enemies kill their friends.
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#56 - 2014-03-01 07:10:31 UTC
Interesting that all the war dec "fixes" never address the glaring flaw with the system that is so bad it boggles the mind why it's still possible after so many years and that is the war deccer paying for X number of targets or a specific target only for corps to start dropping from alliance or players from corps to avoid the war. These entities should be made to pay a fine or the war deccer have his isk refunded.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#57 - 2014-03-01 07:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Quote:
The only exception to this is new players in rookie systems, which, quite frankly is pants-on-head rétarded; these new players should learn that people are out to get them when they are in cheap and disposable ships, not when they're a month old and in their battlecruiser which is basically all they own because nobody told them not to fly what they can't afford to lose.


Yes, ganking/griefing new players in starter systems when doing basic tutorials to unwind the clusterfuck that is EvE UI is definitely a good idea...Roll
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#58 - 2014-03-01 10:14:56 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:
1 frigates and cruisers are cheap. You have been market trading for a year... if you are not making several billion a day, then you are doing it wrong. argument nullified.
2 nobody cares whether you want pvp or not. But everyone including CCP does not care, when you try to tell them they cant pvp you just because you dont want to. after weeks, of people explanining it to you, you still cant grasp that. proving you are Trolling. argument nullified.
3 Yes and no. Currency does has isk value. ISK does not have monetary value. The only thing you are losing is pixels. whether or not you can trade isk for plex is irrelevant, as you should be making this much a day by now. and if you somehow can only make a plex every month then every reason you have for playing this game became irrelevant, since it became your only purpose. that being said, the option is still there. point basil.
4 then stop mining and whining about it. nullified by yourself.

1. Never once have I said that I have been market trading. This alt is permadocked and logged in maybe twice per month to change skills. Frigates and Cruisers are cheap because they live till first HAC with 60m SP pilot they meet, and therefore are junk. Stupid nullification attempt nullified.
2. Nobody cares what you want me to do, and this character has successfully evaded combat peeveepee for years, therefore nullifying your stupid nullification attempt.
3. Bah, cba to deal with ad hominem on purpose.
4. You assumed mining for profit exists, I corrected you, there is nothing to nullify here, why do you even try?

JetStream Drenard wrote:
hello? Multiplayer game here... every single action you take requires interaction with others. whether you like it or not, interaction can be forced upon you without your approval. This is a fact of life as well. This will never change. argument nullified.

There was never an argument here, just theory about how it would be possible to live without interaction. Find yourself a stupidly remote place, and don't undock with neuts in local, easy. Whatever you nullify here is beyond my understanding, but it seems you went on a campaign to nullify your credibility here, so it's ok.


JetStream Drenard wrote:
1 war is never mutual. Do you seriously think there has ever been a mutual war in history? there is always an initial provocation or resource dispute. argument nullified.

Bah... now that's dumb below par, mate. Most wars happened when both sides were ready to jump each other, but merely waited for that provocation to have a reason to. That was the #1 way to wage war, both historically - War of the bucket - until fairly modern WWI and WWII, which started equally well with every participating party able and willing. It's not my job to force you back into history class, but I must tell you that your education has holes. Nullification nullified on account of poor education.
JetStream Drenard wrote:
2 laziness of ganking is a matter of perspective. ganking has been NERFED, many times over. You are simply trying to play victim here. Self defense is your number one freedom in game or real life. The more you ask the government or CCP to help you the more complacent and victimized you will become. this is the path to police states and dictatorships. argument nullified.

Let's line up the ganking "nerfs":
- Ship rebalance which brought a line of perfect cheap ganking ships.
- Tags for sec, which removed consequences of ganking.
"Buffs":
- Insurance payout was removed, so you now make a few thousands less for your catalyst.
Freedom of self defense is not available in many countries, including mine. Once again, your education shows its flaws, my friend. And calling me a victim, has I ever been one? No. Because I know my beans. But ganking itself is, victim point aside, is too profitable at the moment and needs a nerf due to that, not for any other reason you suspect I have. Nullification nullified on account of didnt-read-lol approach to the initial point.
JetStream Drenard wrote:
3 this last bit is the most amusing. It proves that you are a carebear troll and invalidates any reasonable point that you may have. and you pretend like you are being hard, when obviously you are not. If you want to be an alpha male, then sack up and stop playing the victim. People will kill you and steal your stuff in game or real life. deal with it. bait argument nullified.
So when I use arguments of another side during opinion exchange, that makes me a troll, huh? And then it somehow invalidates valid points, just because I'm accused of being a troll and carebear? After that comes a vividly potshot speculation of ad hominem nature, along with personal attacks which sounds like goon logic, ending with proposing to deal with something built on top of aforementioned arguments of extremely dubious credibility. Funnies part is that was a question and not an argument to begin with, so there were noting to nullify but your own portrait of intelligence. You're succeeding. Keep it up!

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#59 - 2014-03-01 10:31:27 UTC
Ludi Burek wrote:
Interesting that all the war dec "fixes" never address the glaring flaw with the system that is so bad it boggles the mind why it's still possible after so many years and that is the war deccer paying for X number of targets or a specific target only for corps to start dropping from alliance or players from corps to avoid the war. These entities should be made to pay a fine or the war deccer have his isk refunded.

The grief decs you mistakenly called war decs there are the flaw themselves.
No grief decs, no problem. Can we agree on that solution?

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#60 - 2014-03-01 16:24:24 UTC
ally

-u sound like quite a risk averse PvP'er. BS's are too expensive? so use something smaller. Cruisers are pretty sweet these days.

-wardeccing got nerfed because CCP thought they were used for griefing too much. end of.

-it also seems u dnt have any experience taking down POS's. yes they take a long time, but whether they are profitable or not depends on the POS u dec. find a good one, dec it, make isks.

-is that a complaint that marmite and failed only dec ppl they know they can stomp with superior equipment and tactics? and what are u doing to ur wartargets again?

-now rookie systems are ********? (btw deliberately circumventing the sensor might get u in trouble) even though u can gank them the moment they step out of system? ive never heard of a noob staying in the same system for a month. this is notably surprising to me seeing that the tutorial missions send u out of system on a few occasions.

truthfully, noobs leave the area and are able to be targeted early enough. noob systems affect that little.

-yeah, ppl run away from war decs, so stop wardeccing ppl just for the kills. u dec the corp, not the player. CCP made war decs more expensive to reduce the amount of flippant decs like the ones u seem to make. CCP are actively discouraging (though not saying u cant make) decs made for the reasons u make them. What does that tell u?

its upto u to dec the right target to get ur money's worth, not for CCP to force ppl into ur gun sights. if u want ur moneys worth, dec ppl who fight back or dec someones POS. u will rarely get ur moneys worth out of deccing for the sake of ur killboard, and so u shouldn't.

cant end the war if the war goes ****? oh no! god forbid there be risk in ur attempts to shoot fish in a barrel. how often do ur targets bring in allies and then make the dec mutual? because if they dnt, u can end the dec within 24 hours...or heres an idea LEAVE CORP.

it does not get u out of PvP, u can suicide gank them whenever u want, and as many times as u want as u suggest. u can bump them, steal their stuff and attack a targets way of life. just like they can do to u.

-the most desirable mechanic is whichever one i want to do at the time. if its just pure kills u want, why dont u roam low sec and null sec, or hunt ppl in worm holes? or join up with faction warfare.

im telling u for ur own good, war decs are not the mechanic u want, for the results u want. kills are in FW, low, WH's and null. or dec someone more likely to defend their stuff if u must dec in hi-sec.

wardecs, though not explicitly for the following reasons, are best used for area and asset denial, demoralising corps and attacking anchored structures.

TL:DR

use the correct mechanic for the desired result.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs