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Rattlesnake Ideas...
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Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#101 - 2014-02-25 00:29:00 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Aliventi wrote:
Bottom line is the Gurristas have nothing that makes them special.

(cough) ECM…?

If I want ECM I'll fly a Widow, or a Scorpion, or a Falcon, or a Rook, or a Kitsune, or a Griffin. I won't fly a faction BS. That is a stupid waste of a potentially great hull for a fantastic pirate race. So many ships already do ECM well we don't need another.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#102 - 2014-02-25 00:30:21 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Not to be picky, but when we consider how to make pirate ships that get one bonus from one existing faction, and one bonus from another existing faction, should we not avoid just making up bonuses out of thin air to assign to one of the known factions?

For instance, missile bonus of any kind assigned to the Gallente side of the equation is stupid.

I was waiting for someone to comment on this… Check out the Caldari "laser" bonus on the Nightmare… Because you know, the Caldari are masters of the laser! Guristas are Caldari-based, so mate the ship with Minmatar instead. Problem solved.

Aliventi wrote:
Bottom line is the Gurristas have nothing that makes them special.

(cough) ECM…?



Good point. Other than the look of the Sansha Battleship I never liked them, so I have never noticed that.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#103 - 2014-02-25 00:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Actually, they do Shields and Drones well.

I think shields and missiles would probably be more accurate, seeing as how the ships they fly are distinctly Caldari in nature.

Aliventi wrote:
If I want ECM I'll fly a Widow, or a Scorpion, or a Falcon, or a Rook, or a Kitsune, or a Griffin. I won't fly a faction BS. That is a stupid waste of a potentially great hull for a fantastic pirate race. So many ships already do ECM well we don't need another.

I'm not saying the Rattlesnake should have ECM. But run any Guristas mission any tell me what the most annoying aspect is…

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Good point. Other than the look of the Sansha Battleship I never liked them, so I have never noticed that.

I only noticed it recently myself and thought, "Gee, how odd…". Amarr is the only race with lasers though, so it's somewhat problematic. I wouldn't be surprised if that's changed in a subsequent update (maybe a shield resistance bonus instead). Seems odd having 2 damage bonuses...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#104 - 2014-02-25 00:33:54 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Aliventi wrote:
Bottom line is the Gurristas have nothing that makes them special.

(cough) ECM…?

If I want ECM I'll fly a Widow, or a Scorpion, or a Falcon, or a Rook, or a Kitsune, or a Griffin. I won't fly a faction BS. That is a stupid waste of a potentially great hull for a fantastic pirate race. So many ships already do ECM well we don't need another.



Which is why I suggested if you wanted to go with an Ewar mod on the Rattlesnake you pick up Gallente style Sensor Dampening instead. Ewar is too binary to really be balanced at the levels that pirate hulls tend to boost things (Hello, 90% web), but Sensor Dampening at crushing levels could work, considering it competes with tank on the hull.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#105 - 2014-02-25 00:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
Aliventi wrote:
There isn't anything remarkable about the Rattlesnake. It, and all of the Gurristas ships, do too many things poorly. They are trying to do missiles and drones with one of the two ship bonuses taken up by the the shield resist bonus. It just doesn't work. Something has to go.

Also, there is nothing that makes the Gurristas ships "special".

  • Blood Raiders have great neuting amount.
  • Serpentis have the strongest webs.
  • Angel ships are fast with great falloff. Kiter's dream.
  • Sansha are the only shield laser ships and they kick out crazy DPS.

Bottom line is the Gurristas have nothing that makes them special.



I sort of agree...

This is what a pirate fleet needs...

Name: Asp
Hull: Corax
Role: Interdictor

Interdictors are destroyer-sized vessels built to fill a single important tactical niche: the breaching of enemy warp tunnels. Capable of launching warp-disrupting interdiction spheres, interdictors are of great value in locations of strategic importance where enemy movement must be restricted, at all costs. Additionally, much like their destroyer-class progenitors, they are well-suited to offensive strikes against frigate-sized craft.


Developer: Gurista Leader, Korako 'Rabbit' Kosakami

In keeping true to the time-honored tradition of pirates everywhere, Korako 'Rabbit' Kosakami has continuously rub salt in the State's wounds by shamelessly retrofitting their designs and then making strikes against his former masters in those very ships whose layout was obviously stolen from them. Putting his own spin on the Interdictor class vessel and by testing the limits of what he had learned from his days in the Caldari Navy, the Asp is a craft that will serve his people's best 'interest' well.

Special Ability: 50% bonus to Rocket and Light missile max velocity

Caldari Destroyer Skill Bonus: 4% bonus to shield resistance per level
Gallente Destroyer Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level

Interdictors Skill Bonus:
5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level
10% reduction in ship and drone Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty per level

Role bonus:
Can fit Interdiction Sphere Launchers

Fitting:
Tech II resistances/shield/armor/structure
25mb Drone Bandwith/25m3 Drone Bay Capacity
4 launcher hardpoints
2 small rig slots; 350 calibration
2 low slots
4 med slots
6 high slots

(Sorry if I detracted from the original thread, it was an idea that just sort of popped into my head... I mean seriously, why wouldn't a pirate use a tech II ship... especially one that helps you steal things...)

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#106 - 2014-02-25 00:40:30 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
[Which is why I suggested if you wanted to go with an Ewar mod on the Rattlesnake you pick up Gallente style Sensor Dampening instead. Ewar is too binary to really be balanced at the levels that pirate hulls tend to boost things (Hello, 90% web), but Sensor Dampening at crushing levels could work, considering it competes with tank on the hull.

I liked the idea that was put forward to have Sensor Dampening on the Sansha ships. I think that would be a better utilization than the +5% Caldari "laser" damage bonus. If the Rattlesnake was going to have any Ewar, ECM makes the most sense. If not for the fact the Scorpion hull is ECM-based then the fact that Guristas make wide use of it.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#107 - 2014-02-25 01:17:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Aliventi wrote:
If I want ECM I'll fly a Widow, or a Scorpion, or a Falcon, or a Rook, or a Kitsune, or a Griffin. I won't fly a faction BS. That is a stupid waste of a potentially great hull for a fantastic pirate race. So many ships already do ECM well we don't need another.

I'm not saying the Rattlesnake should have ECM. But run any Guristas mission any tell me what the most annoying aspect is…

Just because Caldari's EWAR is ECM and Gurristas and Caldari mission NPCs also use it doesn't mean Gurristas ship should be bonused to it. That is like saying just because Angel ships TP then the Mach should have a TP bonus. Or the Serpentis damp so the Vindi should have a sensor damp bonus. It's a racial EWAR. Nothing more, nothing less. It certainly won't make the Gurristas ships notable or worth flying like being the only shield drone ships in game will.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#108 - 2014-02-25 01:30:37 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Just because Caldari's EWAR is ECM and Gurristas and Caldari mission NPCs also use it doesn't mean Gurristas ship should be bonused to it. That is like saying just because Angel ships TP then the Mach should have a TP bonus. Or the Serpentis damp so the Vindi should have a sensor damp bonus. It's a racial EWAR. Nothing more, nothing less. It certainly won't make the Gurristas ships notable or worth flying like being the only shield drone ships in game will.

I'm guessing you just don't like ECM...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#109 - 2014-02-25 01:51:51 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Just because Caldari's EWAR is ECM and Gurristas and Caldari mission NPCs also use it doesn't mean Gurristas ship should be bonused to it. That is like saying just because Angel ships TP then the Mach should have a TP bonus. Or the Serpentis damp so the Vindi should have a sensor damp bonus. It's a racial EWAR. Nothing more, nothing less. It certainly won't make the Gurristas ships notable or worth flying like being the only shield drone ships in game will.

I'm guessing you just don't like ECM...

I recognize ECM as the balanced game mechanic it is. I think it is a waste to have pirate hulls be bonused to EWAR when we have so many other specialized hulls that do EWAR more effectively.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#110 - 2014-02-25 02:13:53 UTC
Fair enough. It would be nice to see a move away from drones because they're becoming a tad too prevalent. We now have two drone-specific Pirate ship lines, two lasers and a hybrid - but nothing for missiles.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Boughan Maroon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-02-25 14:13:21 UTC
Well, I am not only amazed how professional and mature this discussion is going, but also by some of the well thought out ideas presented within. I hope (a small glimmer) that the all mighty devs take notice Big smile


07
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#112 - 2014-02-25 14:17:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Mornin!


Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.

WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)


Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 15
Signature radius: 40


How would these changes translate to Rattlesnake ?

link
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#113 - 2014-02-25 15:05:12 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
How would these changes translate to Rattlesnake ?

My guess?

Gallente Battleship Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 300% bonus to heavy combat drone damage and hit points (50mbit bandwidth and probably 100m3 drone capacity)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#114 - 2014-02-25 15:08:53 UTC
Would expect the bonuses to be along those line yes :P

Overall effects are not so streight forward tho :P (and i think the dronebay will be larget than 100m3, or its a huge nerf for drone usage)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#115 - 2014-02-25 15:30:14 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Would expect the bonuses to be along those line yes :P

Overall effects are not so streight forward tho :P (and i think the dronebay will be larget than 100m3, or its a huge nerf for drone usage)

CCP Rise indicated 2 drones, so I'm inferring 50mbit bandwidth; drone capacity is anyone's guess but I imagine it would be a lot less than the current 400m3.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Boughan Maroon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#116 - 2014-02-25 16:09:26 UTC
.../dream sequenz ON:

3 sentries with 300% HP / Damage.... now that would be very, very nice. like a tiny, intsy - weeny - lil mini carrier (in training).


07
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#117 - 2014-02-25 16:11:40 UTC
Boughan Maroon wrote:
.../dream sequenz ON:
3 sentries with 300% HP / Damage.... now that would be very, very nice. like a tiny, intsy - weeny - lil mini carrier (in training).
07

I wouldn't necessarily assume sentries are included. I suspect the bonus will be to heavy drones only.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#118 - 2014-02-25 17:23:57 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Just because Caldari's EWAR is ECM and Gurristas and Caldari mission NPCs also use it doesn't mean Gurristas ship should be bonused to it. That is like saying just because Angel ships TP then the Mach should have a TP bonus. Or the Serpentis damp so the Vindi should have a sensor damp bonus. It's a racial EWAR. Nothing more, nothing less. It certainly won't make the Gurristas ships notable or worth flying like being the only shield drone ships in game will.


I would love to see all the Pirate faction battleships (and size variants) have "proper" E-war bonuses and using the proper think tankery they could strike a balance between PvE and PvP.
Boughan Maroon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#119 - 2014-02-25 18:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Boughan Maroon
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Boughan Maroon wrote:
.../dream sequenz ON:
3 sentries with 300% HP / Damage.... now that would be very, very nice. like a tiny, intsy - weeny - lil mini carrier (in training).
07

I wouldn't necessarily assume sentries are included. I suspect the bonus will be to heavy drones only.


That would BLOW (tm) And considering the current boni of the Rattler, the damage and hp bonus would have to be significantly above 300% (375? 400?) to be an improvement over the current iteration of the rattler.



07
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#120 - 2014-02-25 22:59:41 UTC
Boughan Maroon wrote:
That would BLOW (tm) And considering the current boni of the Rattler, the damage and hp bonus would have to be significantly above 300% (375? 400?) to be an improvement over the current iteration of the rattler.

My bad. CCP Rise has hinted that the Gila and Rattlesnake may not necessarily follow the same "theme" as the Worm. It would be nice to see something original with respect to drone bonuses, though - as we already have the Ishtar, Deimos, Nestor (etc.) already providing basically the same thing.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.