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Rattlesnake Ideas...
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#81 - 2014-02-24 13:58:55 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Isn't a gun turret a chance-based weapon?


not after piloting skills are applied..... (i mean actual piloting not the skills)


You can have as much piloting skill as you want, there is still a chance for doing 50%-150% for each shot (and 1% chance for 3x dmg)

There is no random in the form of hitting or not, but there is a random for how much dmg you do


if i look at the averag damge distribution over shoots fired in a random engagement it wil be normal distributed
considererd a standard fight lengh the average damage should be very lose to the center of the distribution thus dmaga should not be seen as chance based

while ecm hugely depends on when you get the first jam and other factors and cant be seen as a perfectly good normal distribution over a fight

as to the piloting skills i am aware of how they work i was just making a joke when i implied he thinks hitting may be a random thing...


Only reason you dont see ECM average out is that ECM ships are killed asap, over same number of tries it will equal out just as good as gun dmg (again not counting bad tracking)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-02-24 14:54:12 UTC
^^ this.

Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer in the same way an afterburner, invulnerability field or nano membrane is.

The tracking disruptor is also a damage reducer. In a small scale fight, a sensor dampener is a binary on/off switch for incoming damage. In a larger fight it is also just a damage reducer.

In addition, if either the target or the gunship have any transversal then a gun is absolutely a chance based weapon. Both "to hit" chance and "damage roll" are randomised with limits fixed by range and angular velocity. Again over the course of a fight this randomness just becomes a damage reduction factor for guns in the same way it is for missiles.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#83 - 2014-02-24 14:58:28 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Caldari Battleship Bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% to drone hitpoints and damage

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Rapid Heavy missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage

The RS does NOT need to be a Caldari domi imo (so no drone range bonus)..having said that, we have to wait and see what CCP has in store for the pirate lines re-balance. Maybe all ships will be refocused.


That would be pretty damn cool. With 8 effective cruise launchers + drones it won't matter if it has sub-par application for the missiles.

Would also make it the ultimate MJD gankboat. I love it.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#84 - 2014-02-24 15:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
^^ this.

Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer in the same way an afterburner, invulnerability field or nano membrane is.

The tracking disruptor is also a damage reducer. In a small scale fight, a sensor dampener is a binary on/off switch for incoming damage. In a larger fight it is also just a damage reducer.

In addition, if either the target or the gunship have any transversal then a gun is absolutely a chance based weapon. Both "to hit" chance and "damage roll" are randomised with limits fixed by range and angular velocity. Again over the course of a fight this randomness just becomes a damage reduction factor for guns in the same way it is for missiles.



"Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer..... " [see above]

this is exactly my point

the lengh of an average fight is long enough that most mods can be seen the way you describe
but the lengh of a figh required to see ecm the same way eccedes the lengh most battle last.

if youd wanted to fix that ecm would need to las shorter and ecm modules would need to have shorter cycle time while the frequency wil always be limited by the locktime of the target so it might even be impossible to fix ecm thats why it is a horrible mechanic to me.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#85 - 2014-02-24 15:33:40 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
^^ this.

Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer in the same way an afterburner, invulnerability field or nano membrane is.

The tracking disruptor is also a damage reducer. In a small scale fight, a sensor dampener is a binary on/off switch for incoming damage. In a larger fight it is also just a damage reducer.

In addition, if either the target or the gunship have any transversal then a gun is absolutely a chance based weapon. Both "to hit" chance and "damage roll" are randomised with limits fixed by range and angular velocity. Again over the course of a fight this randomness just becomes a damage reduction factor for guns in the same way it is for missiles.



"Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer..... " [see above]

this is exactly my point

the lengh of an average fight is long enough that most mods can be seen the way you describe
but the lengh of a figh required to see ecm the same way eccedes the lengh most battle last.

if youd wanted to fix that ecm would need to las shorter and ecm modules would need to have shorter cycle time while the frequency wil always be limited by the locktime of the target so it might even be impossible to fix ecm thats why it is a horrible mechanic to me.


The situations where ECM functions as a damage reducer over time are also the situations where ECM is the least effective. Its most effective when it jamming out 50-100% of dps for solid blocks of time, and this is what people complain about.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-02-24 15:35:33 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
^^ this.

Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer in the same way an afterburner, invulnerability field or nano membrane is.

The tracking disruptor is also a damage reducer. In a small scale fight, a sensor dampener is a binary on/off switch for incoming damage. In a larger fight it is also just a damage reducer.

In addition, if either the target or the gunship have any transversal then a gun is absolutely a chance based weapon. Both "to hit" chance and "damage roll" are randomised with limits fixed by range and angular velocity. Again over the course of a fight this randomness just becomes a damage reduction factor for guns in the same way it is for missiles.



"Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer..... " [see above]

this is exactly my point

the lengh of an average fight is long enough that most mods can be seen the way you describe
but the lengh of a figh required to see ecm the same way eccedes the lengh most battle last.

if youd wanted to fix that ecm would need to las shorter and ecm modules would need to have shorter cycle time while the frequency wil always be limited by the locktime of the target so it might even be impossible to fix ecm thats why it is a horrible mechanic to me.


I don't think ECM needs fixing (except the ecm drone re-deploy exploit). All ECM-bonused ships are weak except the ECMgu. Making the rattlesnake into the first strong ECM-bonused ship would make it much more desirable in PVP, which is where I feel it belongs.

I would not be unhappy at all to see doctrines of 100 rattlesnakes taking on standard fleets twice the size. I think that's the purpose of a pirate or navy ship isn't it?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#87 - 2014-02-24 15:43:55 UTC
The nice thing about average is that it dont start/stop for each engagement. Every cycle of an ECM module is unrelated to the last or the other modules, meaning that if you record the land/fail for 100k cycles you will be realy close to the same value as the jamming formula states (I would actualy assume less than 1% off)
Ofc for this to work you need to know the jamming strenght and sensor strenght for every attempt
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#88 - 2014-02-24 15:50:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

I don't think ECM needs fixing (except the ecm drone re-deploy exploit). All ECM-bonused ships are weak except the ECMgu. Making the rattlesnake into the first strong ECM-bonused ship would make it much more desirable in PVP, which is where I feel it belongs.


Making the rattlesnake PVP worthy is an important goal, but making it an ECM ship would do the opposite, sadly (as well as making the price crash even worse if at all possible due to it then also being useless for pve). Scorpions are always primary, how do you think people will feel about a very shiny scorpion? Do you think people will want to use a pirate battleship for what is often considered a suicide role?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2014-02-24 15:58:53 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

I don't think ECM needs fixing (except the ecm drone re-deploy exploit). All ECM-bonused ships are weak except the ECMgu. Making the rattlesnake into the first strong ECM-bonused ship would make it much more desirable in PVP, which is where I feel it belongs.


Making the rattlesnake PVP worthy is an important goal, but making it an ECM ship would do the opposite, sadly (as well as making the price crash even worse if at all possible due to it then also being useless for pve). Scorpions are always primary, how do you think people will feel about a very shiny scorpion? Do you think people will want to use a pirate battleship for what is often considered a suicide role?


With the bonus as I am suggesting them I would not advocate fitting ECM modules exclusively - just two per ship.

The rattlesnake would still be pushing out >1000dps and have ~160k ehp.

I think it would be viable in a small to moderate fleet, even if primary.

I actually think it would present the other side with a dilemma. Do you go for the damn dangerous ECM rattlesnake which is as tough as old boots, or do you hit something squishier instead? I think in many cases a wise FC would go for something squishier.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#90 - 2014-02-24 18:01:55 UTC
Faction BS + ECM = primary in every engagement. I'd rather see the Widow fixed before we try to make another ECM BS.

The Rattlesnake is typical of split weapon systems. With the shorter range on drones, it doesn't really benefit from the enhanced range on cruise missiles, which are employed to make up for the lack of drone dps. Torpedoes have application and range issues. Javelin torps have roughly the same application and damage as Fury cruise missiles with roughly 25% the range. There is literally no reason to ever use them except on a stealth bomber.

The best thing it has going for it is a ****-off passive tank. But a huge tank doesn't kill enemies. My T2 Raven gets slightly better dps and tank despite the lack of a resist bonus and with only a 25% bonus to missile RoF, and it will do it at much longer ranges than the Rattler because RS has to swap to longer range drones to do it.

Its combination of range, damage, and tanking bonuses are in conflict with one another. It needs to be refocused either on LR combat, or brawling. Its a prime example of the old school CCP design philosophy of "let's throw some bonuses on this ship because it will be cool. Heh-heh-heh. Heh-heh."

Personally, its already a decent brawler with the ability to fit 2x Large neuts in addition to a full tank, tackle, and lots of dps mods. But it needs a bit more CPU so it can fit that stuff. PG seems to be good.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Boughan Maroon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2014-02-24 21:17:53 UTC
how about giving it a bonus to range and explosion radius to make it a Torp BS? It is a bloody shame that other than stealth bomber no ships really are utilizing this wonderful weapon.

o7
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#92 - 2014-02-24 22:46:55 UTC
Boughan Maroon wrote:
how about giving it a bonus to range and explosion radius to make it a Torp BS? It is a bloody shame that other than stealth bomber no ships really are utilizing this wonderful weapon. o7

I just want a dedicated Pirate missile boat. Preferably in armor, and preferably in black - but I digress… If I had a say in modifying the Rattlesnake, this is what I would change:

• +2 missile launchers and lose the drone bonuses
• Strip the drone bay to 50m3 with 25m3 of bandwidth; increase cargo capacity +200m3
• Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% shield resistances per level
• Gallente Battleship Bonus: 10% launcher ammunition capacity per level
• Roll bonus: 25% missile rate of fire

Now you have something that tanks well and can not only hold a lot of ammunition in cargo but up to 50% more in the launchers as well. Voila.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-02-24 22:57:15 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Boughan Maroon wrote:
how about giving it a bonus to range and explosion radius to make it a Torp BS? It is a bloody shame that other than stealth bomber no ships really are utilizing this wonderful weapon. o7

I just want a dedicated Pirate missile boat. Preferably in armor, and preferably in black - but I digress… If I had a say in modifying the Rattlesnake, this is what I would change:

• +2 missile launchers and lose the drone bonuses
• Strip the drone bay to 50m3 with 25m3 of bandwidth; increase cargo capacity +200m3
• Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% shield resistances per level
• Gallente Battleship Bonus: 10% launcher ammunition capacity per level
• Roll bonus: 25% missile rate of fire

Now you have something that tanks well and can not only hold a lot of ammunition in cargo but up to 50% more in the launchers as well. Voila.


So basically a Raven with more tank and reloading less often ?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#94 - 2014-02-24 23:07:52 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
So basically a Raven with more tank and reloading less often ?

I was thinking more along the lines of a Navy Scorpion, since there wouldn't be any missile velocity bonus.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#95 - 2014-02-24 23:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

• +2 missile launchers and lose the drone bonuses
• Strip the drone bay to 50m3 with 25m3 of bandwidth; increase cargo capacity +200m3
• Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% shield resistances per level
• Gallente Battleship Bonus: 10% launcher ammunition capacity per level
• Roll bonus: 25% missile rate of fire

Now you have something that tanks well and can not only hold a lot of ammunition in cargo but up to 50% more in the launchers as well. Voila.


I threw up in my mouth a little. The last thing we need is to make this ship a gimmick platform for rapid launchers.


Also, I propose its name be changed to "RattleSnack"

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#96 - 2014-02-24 23:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Batelle wrote:
I threw up in my mouth a little. The last thing we need is to make this ship a gimmick platform for rapid launchers. Also, I propose its name be changed to "RattleSnack"

I was actually just thinking the whole missile velocity, explosion radius and explosion velocity bonus thing had been done to death. We have capacitor energy reduction for lasers so I was thinking something similar along those lines for missiles. Here's another variation…

• 4 launchers
• Caldari Battleship Bonus: 20% shield resistances
• Gallente Battleship Bonus: 50% reload time reduction
• Roll bonus: 50% rate of fire

I call this one "RattleSmack". Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#97 - 2014-02-25 00:12:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Not to be picky, but when we consider how to make pirate ships that get one bonus from one existing faction, and one bonus from another existing faction, should we not avoid just making up bonuses out of thin air to assign to one of the known factions?

For instance, missile bonus of any kind assigned to the Gallente side of the equation is stupid. Gallente do Drones and Hybrids(damage and tracking usually), with Active armor tanking bonuses, Remote tracking links, sensor dampening, and occasionally boosts to microwarps before everyone thought it was cool.

Gallente ships barely get missile hardpoints at all, and no bonuses for them. The only Gallente ships bonused to launchers of any sort is the Stealth Bomber, and it got torps the way all the other factions got carriers that use drones--- because that's the class ship it is.

On each pirate ship, the racial assigned bonuses all come from ships within that faction. Gurista's didn't suddenly decide to armor the Rattlesnake and use missiles, and Gallente didn't decide to suddenly sprout missile ships.

You want to switch out the drone bonus for some massive bonuses to Sensor Dampener or something, that would fit the hull (ewar), and force ships into Garde/Torp range. But don't just make up some missile crap and call it a Gallente bonus
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#98 - 2014-02-25 00:15:54 UTC
There isn't anything remarkable about the Rattlesnake. It, and all of the Gurristas ships, do too many things poorly. They are trying to do missiles and drones with one of the two ship bonuses taken up by the the shield resist bonus. It just doesn't work. Something has to go.

Also, there is nothing that makes the Gurristas ships "special".

  • Blood Raiders have great neuting amount.
  • Serpentis have the strongest webs.
  • Angel ships are fast with great falloff. Kiter's dream.
  • Sansha are the only shield laser ships and they kick out crazy DPS.

Bottom line is the Gurristas have nothing that makes them special.

It would be nice if CCP were to throw out Gurristas in the current form and make them the only shield drone ships in game. Gurristas would then parallel the Sansha which are the only shield laser ships in game. Imagine a wicked awesome shield Domi. The only issue is that doesn't really work as rats don't use drones. The actual rats would have to not function like the player ships. Which is fine. it will just mess with the lore/immersion a little.

So yes. Pretty much anything CCP does at this point will make it better. CCP could make it slightly better or CCP could make it the most powerful pirate BS in the game. It just depends on what they do. At this point your guess is as good as mine.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#99 - 2014-02-25 00:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Not to be picky, but when we consider how to make pirate ships that get one bonus from one existing faction, and one bonus from another existing faction, should we not avoid just making up bonuses out of thin air to assign to one of the known factions?

For instance, missile bonus of any kind assigned to the Gallente side of the equation is stupid.

I was waiting for someone to comment on this… Check out the Caldari "laser" bonus on the Nightmare… Because you know, the Caldari are masters of the laser! Guristas are Caldari-based, so mate the ship with Minmatar instead. Problem solved.

Aliventi wrote:
Bottom line is the Gurristas have nothing that makes them special.

(cough) ECM…?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#100 - 2014-02-25 00:27:43 UTC
Actually, they do Shields and Drones well.

They suffer from the split weapons. If they kept the launcher slots but removed all bonus, and went for something more like the Sansha or Angel role bonus of a significant boost to Drones (a 100% flat bonus along with the current 10%/Level would result in 15 effective drones). This would be in line with other pirate ships, keeping in mind the shortcomings of drones with no low slot tracking mods, and they can be shot out of space.

They would be terrifying.