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Rattlesnake Ideas...
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#21 - 2014-02-21 21:05:58 UTC
thats kinda my standing. rattler is pretty good at what it does.

are they supposed to be trying to make it a PvP ship or something?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#22 - 2014-02-21 22:59:50 UTC
Adding a role bonus for 100% missile dmg (8 effective launchers, like golem), along with Dominix drone bonuses and top it off with 4% resist bonus and you have a decent ship.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-02-21 23:05:28 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Adding a role bonus for 100% missile dmg (8 effective launchers, like golem), along with Dominix drone bonuses and top it off with 4% resist bonus and you have a decent ship.


So basically a missile version of a navy Dominix?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#24 - 2014-02-21 23:08:39 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Adding a role bonus for 100% missile dmg (8 effective launchers, like golem), along with Dominix drone bonuses and top it off with 4% resist bonus and you have a decent ship.


So basically a missile version of a navy Dominix?


More like a Missile/shield Dominix, navy Domi have worse drone bonuses
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#25 - 2014-02-21 23:49:33 UTC
I am not at my computer to be able to check, but ai am pretty sure the N.Domi and Rattler have the same drone bonus.

N.Domi also gets a hybrid damage bonus and Rattler gets tank resist plus a flavor missile range bonus.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#26 - 2014-02-22 00:08:40 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I am not at my computer to be able to check, but ai am pretty sure the N.Domi and Rattler have the same drone bonus.

N.Domi also gets a hybrid damage bonus and Rattler gets tank resist plus a flavor missile range bonus.


Yes bouth N.Domi and Rattlesnake currenty only have 10% dmg bonus to drones. RS have 4% shield resists and 50% range bonus on missiles (4 missile hardpoints), where the N.Domi have 6 turrets with 5%/lvl dmg bonus.

N.Domi is nothe power level to look at for balancing a pirate ship tho, that would be Vindi/Mach/Bhaal/NM

Vindicator have 8 turrets with 37.5% dmg role bonus (11 effective turrets), tracking bonus, a STRONG web bonus and 125mb drone for drones

Mach have 7 turrets with 5%/lvl dmg and 25% RoF role bonus (11.67 effective turrets), falloff bonus and 100mb for drones (+good agility/speed)

Bhaal have 4 turrets with 100% dmg role bonus (8 effective turrets), web range bonus and neuting amount bonus.

NM have 4 turrets with 100%dmg role bonus and 5%lvl dmg (10 effective turrents), tracking bonus and 75mb for drones

Current RS have 4 range bonused missiles, 125MB drones with 5%/lvl dmg and 4%resist bonus



With this the Vindi stands out for raw dmg, the Mach for agility/speed and Bhaal for its neuting.
Notice how all these ships have 8+ effective weapons, a bonus to dmg application and decent drones.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#27 - 2014-02-22 00:38:23 UTC
Ok.. it's hard to say what the drones are worth in terms of turrets... but it's got to be at least 5, and really probably closer to 8.

Drones have their downsides, probably most importantly here in terms of being easily killable.

I can see where the Rattlesnake can use a bit of a bump, and that bump probably needs to be in the missile area, perhaps an explosion bonus, or a better range bonus so that torps can have a useful range. As it stands, you don't need the bonus on cruise missiles, and torps have such a short range that even a 50% bonus does not do much good on a ship that is also expected to put out sentries.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#28 - 2014-02-22 10:12:22 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Ok.. it's hard to say what the drones are worth in terms of turrets... but it's got to be at least 5, and really probably closer to 8.

Drones have their downsides, probably most importantly here in terms of being easily killable.

I can see where the Rattlesnake can use a bit of a bump, and that bump probably needs to be in the missile area, perhaps an explosion bonus, or a better range bonus so that torps can have a useful range. As it stands, you don't need the bonus on cruise missiles, and torps have such a short range that even a 50% bonus does not do much good on a ship that is also expected to put out sentries.


Lets then assume a sentry/heavy = 1 turret (blasters do more, artillery does less)
RS have 7.5 effective sentry + 4 effective turrets = 11.5
Vindi have 5 effective sentry + 11 effective turrets = 16
Mach have 4 effective sentry + 11.67 effective turrets = 15.67
Bhall have 3 effective sentry + 8 effective turrets = 11
NM have 3 effective sentry + 10 effective turrets = 13

This is a bit more balanced, but all of the other ships here have bonus to dmg application and/or bonus that indirectly help with dmg application
Boughan Maroon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-02-22 10:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Boughan Maroon
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Ok.. it's hard to say what the drones are worth in terms of turrets... but it's got to be at least 5, and really probably closer to 8.

Drones have their downsides, probably most importantly here in terms of being easily killable.

I can see where the Rattlesnake can use a bit of a bump, and that bump probably needs to be in the missile area, perhaps an explosion bonus, or a better range bonus so that torps can have a useful range. As it stands, you don't need the bonus on cruise missiles, and torps have such a short range that even a 50% bonus does not do much good on a ship that is also expected to put out sentries.


Lets then assume a sentry/heavy = 1 turret (blasters do more, artillery does less)
RS have 7.5 effective sentry + 4 effective turrets = 11.5
Vindi have 5 effective sentry + 11 effective turrets = 16
Mach have 4 effective sentry + 11.67 effective turrets = 15.67
Bhall have 3 effective sentry + 8 effective turrets = 11
NM have 3 effective sentry + 10 effective turrets = 13

This is a bit more balanced, but all of the other ships here have bonus to dmg application and/or bonus that indirectly help with dmg application


Thank you for putting these numbers together. They really demonstrate the disparity in combat strength rather well. I only want to add that I think most Bhalls are not used for damage application, but rather for their fantastic neuting power (plus webs help too).

o7

Boughan
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#30 - 2014-02-22 10:56:32 UTC
With only 4 launchers there is pretty much no real point in buffing the missles to any real extent...

Special Ability: Get rid of the 50% bonus to velocity of missles and trade it with a 37.5% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo rate of fire.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 4% shield resistance per level (keep it since it works)

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone shield recharge rate and damage per skill level



Give it the marauders' bonus to micro jump drives... and the ability to fit 4 Hybrid guns or 4 missles (or a combination of the two) as well...


If I was a pirate, this is how I would have refitted this hull...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#31 - 2014-02-22 12:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Caldari Battleship Bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% to drone hitpoints and damage

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Rapid Heavy missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage

The RS does NOT need to be a Caldari domi imo (so no drone range bonus)..having said that, we have to wait and see what CCP has in store for the pirate lines re-balance. Maybe all ships will be refocused.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#32 - 2014-02-22 15:10:40 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

2. give the ship an ECM strength bonus as befits a guristas battleship.

NO just NO!
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#33 - 2014-02-22 16:17:19 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Caldari Battleship Bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% to drone hitpoints and damage

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Rapid Heavy missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage

The RS does NOT need to be a Caldari domi imo (so no drone range bonus)..having said that, we have to wait and see what CCP has in store for the pirate lines re-balance. Maybe all ships will be refocused.


I agree that it dont need range bonus for drones, but it needs an application bonus for one of its weapon systems. Either make it a drone ship with missiles (domi bonuses) or make it a missile ship with drones (atleast 8 effective launchers + application bonus). Split weapon systems are only good when you can get full bonus for bouth, or its suboptimal for everything
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#34 - 2014-02-22 18:37:27 UTC
I think it just needs a slight fittinhg buff, full rack of launchers, and lower the velocity bonus for a range/tracking increase to drones or maybe even just add the drone application buff while sacrificing nothing.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#35 - 2014-02-22 20:05:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
here is my solution:
1. drop the missile range bonus, it's useless.
2. give the ship an ECM strength bonus as befits a guristas battleship.

Agreed. ECM would certainly be interesting...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#36 - 2014-02-22 20:36:44 UTC
Apply these change to the Guristas ship line:

Worm

  1. Remove shield resistance bonus
  2. Replace with "10% per level to drone damage and hitpoints"

Gila

  1. Remove Shield resistance bonus
  2. Replace with "7.5% per level to sentry drone optimal and tracking"

Rattlesnake

  1. Remove shield resistance bonus (can you see a pattern yet?)
  2. Replace with "7.5% per level to sentry drone optimal and tracking"

Give all 3 the role bonus "100% bonus to damage from kinetic missiles". The gallente influence is brought in-line with what we've come to expect from Dominix and Ishtar bonuses. The Caldari influence is preserved in that the ships receive a significant kinetic missile damage bonus and will still favour shield tanking due to their slot layouts and base hit point distribution. The improved drone damage and/or application combined with the role bonus to kinetic missiles should bring their damage potential in line with other pirate faction ships. The removal of the shield resistance bonus should do the same with their tanking potential.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-02-22 21:48:40 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

2. give the ship an ECM strength bonus as befits a guristas battleship.

NO just NO!


Why? It's a pirate ship. It's supposed to be scary.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#38 - 2014-02-22 22:14:02 UTC
I REALLY like that set RoF / DMG idea, I could see something like:

37.5% Rate of Fire bonus to Cruise Missiles, Torpedoes, or Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (6.4 effective launchers)
- OR -
50% bonus to damage for Cruise Missiles, Heavy Missiles, or Torpedoes (6 effective launchers)

Here's where I add a different take on Pirate Battleships and what CCP could do with it:

Normal Mode:
Caldari Battleship - 4% per level shield resistances
Gallente Battleship - 10% per level drone damage and hit points

Bastion Mode (wtf did he just do that?!?!?):
Caldari Battleship - 15% ECM Target Jammer strength, 25% ECM Target Jammer optimal range and falloff
Gallente Battleship - 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and tracking

Role Bonus changes to: 25% Large Hybrid Turret optimal and Rate of fire

Bastion Module:
Max Velocity Bonus becomes -25% on Pirate Battleship
Shield Boost Bonus becomes 25%
All Damage Resistance Bonuses drop to 10%

So what happens here? How would you describe this ship?

As a normal ship it has 4 missile launchers with effective ability to fire with damage out put of 6 launchers, shield resistances, and drone damage and hit points. It is a Missiles, Drones, Shields hybrid.

When you use the bastion mode you reduce speed, gain slight resistances, gain ability to effectively E-War, and become a hybrid gun platform. With the above bonuses assuming 4 Turret slots you get
[4 guns * 37.5% damage * 25% rate of fire] = 7.333 effective guns. Shields, E-War, Hybrids combination.

THIS would make the Pirate battleships shine to have a "PvE Mode" and a PvP Bastion mode. Just my $.02.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#39 - 2014-02-22 22:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Realistically, if the Rattlesnake gets any change to missile bonuses it should probably be a 25% rate of fire (same as the Navy Scorpion) instead of 50% missile velocity (Raven, Navy Raven).

The Rattlesnake is primarily a drone boat with missiles as an afterthought. It's worth noting that most of the other Pirate battleships don't have a dual weapon scheme (exceptions noted):

• Machariel - projectiles, low signature and fast speed
• Vindicator - hybrids, webs
• Bhaalgorn - lasers, neuts, vampire
• Nightmare - lasers
• Rattlesnake - drones, missiles
• Nestor - drones, lasers

ECM is an interesting idea, but you'd have to nix missiles entirely in lieu of that. Is a Drone/ECM boat too OP?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#40 - 2014-02-22 22:54:02 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The Rattlesnake is primarily a drone boat with missiles as an afterthought. It's worth noting that most of the other Pirate battleships don't have a dual weapon scheme (exceptions noted):

• Machariel - projectiles, low signature and fast speed
• Vindicator - hybrids, webs
• Bhaalgorn - lasers, neuts, vampire
• Nightmare - lasers
• Rattlesnake - drones, missiles
• Nestor - drones, lasers

ECM is an interesting idea, but you'd have to nix missiles entirely in lieu of that. Is a Drone/ECM boat too OP?


If you used the same model I described above all of the ships you mentioned could have a battle mode and an e-war mode (save the Nestor, which could instead have a ... well triage mode, for lack of better terminology)

Machariel - Autocannon & Shield Boost? vs Artillery & Target Painter
Vindicator - Blaster & Webs vs Rails & Dampening
Bhaalgorn - Lasers & Webs vs Neut/Vamp & Webs
Nightmare - Lasers & Tracking vs Damping & Beams?
Rattlesnake - Missiles/Shields/Drones (think Raven meets Dominix) vs. Hybrids & ECM (think Megathron meets Scorpion)
Nestor - stays same essentially