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EvE Passive income needs to be removed

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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#41 - 2014-02-20 13:03:53 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Passive income is terrible for EvE, it reduces the activity spent by players in game, removes social requirements for earning income, and creates power blocs whose sole purpose is to farm isk endlessly thus inflating the economy for players who choose to actively play the game to earn income. Passive isk generation turns EvE into a Ghost town, no longer are miners needed to strip belts and work as a group, now all you need are moon mining pos's and botters to supply your Alliance with income.

I was a fan of Ultima Online, botting ruined the game for me, I remember when IPY 2 launched, everyone was using macros to skill up, the place was just filled with people who may as well have been non player characters. EvE needs less ways for people to AFK through the game. Moon mining and planetary interaction are some of the worst things to happen to EvE online, the inflation from these brainless isk generators is obscene. When will CCP step up and admit they've just created a bunch of ways for Alliances Bloc leaders to generate passive income in game and then launder the isk they make through p.l.e.x sales on websites such as player auctions? The passive income generation isn't here to make the game better for the EvE players, the passive income generation is to help people make money in real life through leading massive Blue Donuts such as the CFC.



TL;DR: Another newb who either doesn't understand the EVE Online economy at all, or is butthurt that "all the good moons are taken".

I also find it curious that we'd be getting complaints about passive income with technetium prices at their current level. I haven't seen them this low in a while.

Anyway OP, I suggest you read the replies to this thread, especially viz moon goo is not an isk faucet. Bear in mind that said moons need to be defended and are regularly fought for (which is why you will never have one - they ARE defended), and said conflict generation destroys as much moon goo in its final form as T2 products, as it produces.

While I agree that moon income is far from perfect, passive income does not, as you suggest, promote inactivity. Rather it permits players to focus their activities elsewhere - presumably on creating content.
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-02-20 13:05:12 UTC
Mara Denais wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
If I have discovered a technology that can destroy earth, I dictate what has value, because I have power. Money has no value, because the people who create the money have been removed from power. Currency = resources.


Want a gold medal or something? You're going down the sanity slope faster than an areodynamic slalom atlethe would on snow.



Sanity is based on a pseudo-science, I'll indulge you however. If I develop nuclear weapons, I can hold the world hostage, if I develop time travel I can control the world without firing one shot, if I figure out warp drive, I can colonize the galaxy. Money only has value because the people in control claim it does, real value comes from power.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2014-02-20 13:08:02 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Money only has value because the people in control claim it does, real value comes from power.

So what you're saying is that the goons should be given access to the /spawn and /give commands so they can create items and ISK at will.
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-02-20 13:08:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
Money only has value because the people in control claim it does, real value comes from power.

So what you're saying is that the goons should be given access to the /spawn and /give commands so they can create items and ISK at will.


Goons don't control the game CCP is God, thus its up to god to decide who has power.

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Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-02-20 13:09:51 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
It is a good thing space is infinite, it isn't the same thing either, one is realistic and one is fake. If an alliance controls the milky way and is taking all of the resources, eventually that alliance has to move out of the milky way, if a rare resource is found in another galaxy/system one alliance must decide to go to war in order to capture this rare resource thats capable of generating untold destruction, my game would be how space is, eve is space socialism with very little risk.

EvE has a fake physics engine, and a economy based on the idea of unlimited resources, once one group obtains power its nearly impossible to remove that group from power. If I can travel to a different galaxy and find a rare resource, or learn how to generate a big bang or some other type of super weapon I can remove this group from power, in a universe like EvE its basically balanced so nothing exciting ever happens, and its completely fake just like here on earth, until someone in a basement develops super powers and starts knocking out the competition through new weird technology no one understands.


Spoilers*****





First, space is not infinite. Second but a bit off topic Matter can not be created or destroyed. Recycle Much? Third, this is the huge one. EvE is a game. And duh its balanced, because if you could build said super weapon you would just replace this imagined alliance you think is so hard to topple without said super weapon. And then guess what your back at square one with an entire fake galaxy of pissed off subscribers that can't take the region from you even if it was you vs. everyone else.


Space is expanding faster than lightspeed, you have no way of knowing if it will ever end, also multi-verse theory means we have unlimited universes/multiverses, so yes space in terms of our current technological capability is infinite.


If that were true we wouldn't see stars at all. I think, yeah I am pretty sure we at least wouldn't see other galaxies. well at least the ones moving away from us.

So this Multi-verse theory, is it a theory or a Scientific Theory. Cause they don't both mean the same thing.

And this cause I remembered it when I thought of how many galaxies are moving towards us apposed to how many are moving away from us. Also relevant for many many other reasons.
Mara Denais
Mara Denais Tax Evasion
#46 - 2014-02-20 13:10:33 UTC
There's a topic in here, somewhere.
Someone find it!
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#47 - 2014-02-20 13:11:27 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
If I have discovered a technology that can destroy earth, I dictate what has value, because I have power. Money has no value, because the people who create the money have been removed from power. Currency = resources.


huh, good no-one told the USSR.

Just because you have power (the USSR was capable of destroying earth) does not mean that you get to define value as value is inherently subjective.

Currency is not the same as resources. Resources are resources and currency is an abstraction of those.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-02-20 13:12:20 UTC
The issue isn't passive/active.

The issue is static & limitless sources of anything.

All resources should deplete after a certain point and respawn elsewhere (with as much randomness and ambiguity as possible). Complexes, rocks, rats, moons... anything.


I don't care how much you're having to pay attention to make your money.
In fact, the more "passive" (unengaged) you are the better; especially with some of CCP's newer mods.
(CCP knows.... oh yes, they know.)

What I do care is if the nature of the resources is dynamic enough to be a constant driver of both exploration and conflict.

When resources dry up and must be found elsewhere.
Or to say, when resources can potentially pop up just about anywhere...
The game becomes more competitive and opportunistic.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-02-20 13:13:00 UTC
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
It is a good thing space is infinite, it isn't the same thing either, one is realistic and one is fake. If an alliance controls the milky way and is taking all of the resources, eventually that alliance has to move out of the milky way, if a rare resource is found in another galaxy/system one alliance must decide to go to war in order to capture this rare resource thats capable of generating untold destruction, my game would be how space is, eve is space socialism with very little risk.

EvE has a fake physics engine, and a economy based on the idea of unlimited resources, once one group obtains power its nearly impossible to remove that group from power. If I can travel to a different galaxy and find a rare resource, or learn how to generate a big bang or some other type of super weapon I can remove this group from power, in a universe like EvE its basically balanced so nothing exciting ever happens, and its completely fake just like here on earth, until someone in a basement develops super powers and starts knocking out the competition through new weird technology no one understands.


Spoilers*****





First, space is not infinite. Second but a bit off topic Matter can not be created or destroyed. Recycle Much? Third, this is the huge one. EvE is a game. And duh its balanced, because if you could build said super weapon you would just replace this imagined alliance you think is so hard to topple without said super weapon. And then guess what your back at square one with an entire fake galaxy of pissed off subscribers that can't take the region from you even if it was you vs. everyone else.


Space is expanding faster than lightspeed, you have no way of knowing if it will ever end, also multi-verse theory means we have unlimited universes/multiverses, so yes space in terms of our current technological capability is infinite.


If that were true we wouldn't see stars at all. I think, yeah I am pretty sure we at least wouldn't see other galaxies. well at least the ones moving away from us.

So this Multi-verse theory, is it a theory or a Scientific Theory. Cause they don't both mean the same thing.

And this cause I remembered it when I thought of how many galaxies are moving towards us apposed to how many are moving away from us. Also relevant for many many other reasons.



We still see the stars within range of our planet, we know galaxies exist outside the range of our planet, and everything we can see with hubble happened a very long time ago, so that light is just catching up, those galaxies have either gone supernovae or moved out of range, we won't know for a billion years probably. We have stars close to us, within traveling distance, that will be near us for a very long time.

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#50 - 2014-02-20 13:13:29 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:

LOCAL needs to be removed from nullsec .


No longer a stealth remove local thread Lol
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#51 - 2014-02-20 13:18:17 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Goons don't control the game
…but they have power. So obviously they should be able to dictate the value of things by spawning ISK and items at will.

Quote:
We still see the stars within range of our planet, we know galaxies exist outside the range of our planet, and everything we can see with hubble happened a very long time ago, so that light is just catching up, those galaxies have either gone supernovae or moved out of range, we won't know for a billion years probably. We have stars close to us, within traveling distance, that will be near us for a very long time.
So you grasp of physics is about on par with your grasp of economics and history then… Lol
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-02-20 13:21:45 UTC
USSR was just a means to test population control so other civilizations could continue enjoying the standard of living they have grown accustomed to, if I can install a dictator into a foreign country I can turn people into slaves willingly.

I am done posting for now forums are lagging for me, if you control the money you control its governments.

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2014-02-20 13:31:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
Goons don't control the game
…but they have power. So obviously they should be able to dictate the value of things by spawning ISK and items at will.

Quote:
We still see the stars within range of our planet, we know galaxies exist outside the range of our planet, and everything we can see with hubble happened a very long time ago, so that light is just catching up, those galaxies have either gone supernovae or moved out of range, we won't know for a billion years probably. We have stars close to us, within traveling distance, that will be near us for a very long time.
So you grasp of physics is about on par with your grasp of economics and history then… Lol


Everything I have said is true, the universe has been proven to move faster than light, it takes billions of years for the farthest visible galaxies starlight to travel here, eventually earth will be father away from our nearest galaxies, apparently you don't read much about physics.

Multi-verse theory exists, because the big bang occurred from nothing, so the theory is that the big bang happened from physics outside our current time & space, and thats about it.

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-02-20 13:32:18 UTC
The OP is clearly batshit, but that aside, I could be down for a trit-based economy, which is what I assume we would operate on if isk didn't exist (can you imagine hauling freighters full of Trit into Jita to buy that officer mod), since without a common trade item (as much as I would love it, I don't think there are enough Long-limbed roes or exotic dancers to base an economy off them Sad), bartering would be a complete clusterfuck of contract orders with odd bartering details.(Hmm, I need to trade some of my Hobgonlins for an Invulnerability Field, so I can trade that for a thousand missiles... urgh).
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-02-20 13:32:42 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:


We still see the stars within range of our planet, we know galaxies exist outside the range of our planet, and everything we can see with hubble happened a very long time ago, so that light is just catching up, those galaxies have either gone supernovae or moved out of range, we won't know for a billion years probably. We have stars close to us, within traveling distance, that will be near us for a very long time.


13.8 billion years is the age of the universe. It's expanstion is accelerating at a meaurable rate not sure what it is cant be bothered to look it up but lets take your "Expanding faster than the speed of light" (how much faster?) lets just arbitrarily guess that it is now 3 times the speed of light.

The light catching up to us as the universe accelerates its expansion would blue shift and eventually wink out.

You now nvm I'm not going to finish my thought it would be wasted on you.

For everyone else I was on my way to telling the op to take the figure 13.8 billion years plus the arbitrary guess of 3 times the speed of light now as the current expansion speed and do the math. But effort......
Grunanca
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2014-02-20 13:36:09 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
embrel wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
while moon mining and PI just gives lazy people a way to stop playing while keeping an account active with plex.


First, if you read the quoted sentence carefully you'll see why this is beneficial for CCP and thus potentially for you.

Second, if it's such a non-effort, why don't you do it?


It makes the game boring, I am not looking for a game to login train skills and logout like the majority of the defenders of this system.


Find another game to play then? No one forces you to play EVE...
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-02-20 13:36:41 UTC
Snagletooth Johnson
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-02-20 13:38:22 UTC
Mara Denais wrote:
There's a topic in here, somewhere.
Someone find it!

The topic is my shoes, and if they make my toes look big..I think...or something about the OP being passive aggressive
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-02-20 13:38:40 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
The OP is clearly batshit, but that aside, I could be down for a trit-based economy, which is what I assume we would operate on if isk didn't exist (can you imagine hauling freighters full of Trit into Jita to buy that officer mod), since without a common trade item (as much as I would love it, I don't think there are enough Long-limbed roes or exotic dancers to base an economy off them Sad), bartering would be a complete clusterfuck of contract orders with odd bartering details.(Hmm, I need to trade some of my Hobgonlins for an Invulnerability Field, so I can trade that for a thousand missiles... urgh).



Im sure you could find a more efficient mineral to base the economy on. Do some math on how much the isk value of an officer mod is and how many m3 of trit would be equivalent to that value. Have a laugh at that number and then decide on morphite cause reasons. Err? Morphite is the red stuff right? Lol
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#60 - 2014-02-20 13:39:20 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
No you could exchange goods for resources through the market, instead of having isk, you'd have to physically move your gold from one station to the other and then trade it to the bankers on that station to receive your item
…and it would be slow and painfully inconvenient to use, not to mention be completely arbitrary in what stuff is worth. There's a reason money exists, and it is exactly to remove this wasteful and inefficient system and replace it with one that actually allows for proper trading of large volumes of unequal and incomparable goods.

Quote:
We'd also make it so resources run out, and in order to generate new resources you have to explore more space, once you mine a moon for 100 years the moon minerals shouldn't respawn when server comes up.
Again, it's been tried. It doesn't work. What you describe leads to one thing: hoarding, inflation, and economic collapse.

Games that have tried that model have all been forced to abandon it for a faucet-sink system.


Money isn't real, you can't put a value on something that is unique, you can say that the omega particle my corporation found is worth 100 trillion isk, but my omega particle can destroy your entire galaxy and all of its "isk" so no money can't compete with resource based economies in terms of power and fun. Currency is something made up by people who knew resources are scarce and wanted to trick people into handing over gold to them, so that they could keep it.


Oh great we are abandoning isk. Here comes the tritanium standard, where small change has to be carried in freighters, and the veldnaught, mines money directly.