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EvE Passive income needs to be removed

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Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2014-02-20 12:12:45 UTC
Spurty wrote:

In an mmo you should be rewarded for teaming up in *small* tight knitt groups to perform activities efficiently.


Please validate this statement. Why should I have a hard cap on the minimum and maximum numbers that might contribute to a well thought out operation?

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-02-20 12:17:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
No you could exchange goods for resources through the market, instead of having isk, you'd have to physically move your gold from one station to the other and then trade it to the bankers on that station to receive your item
…and it would be slow and painfully inconvenient to use, not to mention be completely arbitrary in what stuff is worth. There's a reason money exists, and it is exactly to remove this wasteful and inefficient system and replace it with one that actually allows for proper trading of large volumes of unequal and incomparable goods.

Quote:
We'd also make it so resources run out, and in order to generate new resources you have to explore more space, once you mine a moon for 100 years the moon minerals shouldn't respawn when server comes up.
Again, it's been tried. It doesn't work. What you describe leads to one thing: hoarding, inflation, and economic collapse.

Games that have tried that model have all been forced to abandon it for a faucet-sink system.


Money isn't real, you can't put a value on something that is unique, you can say that the omega particle my corporation found is worth 100 trillion isk, but my omega particle can destroy your entire galaxy and all of its "isk" so no money can't compete with resource based economies in terms of power and fun. Currency is something made up by people who knew resources are scarce and wanted to trick people into handing over gold to them, so that they could keep it.

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Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-02-20 12:18:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Knights Armament
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:


Passive generation of resources can be attributed not just to resource generation, but also isk generation through botting. I think if we removed ISK and went to a resource based economy things in EvE would be less inflated due to the risk involved in running mining operations, and moving resources to trade hubs. I think currency in the form of credits that can endlessly be made from nothing is bad for the games economy.

If I designed a game, we wouldn't have a fiat currency, we wouldn't have unlimited asteroids either. Where does the ISK placed on the pirate npc come from, who generates that isk? The game creates this isk from thin air, with no tangible backing to give it value, like gold, this is why isk inflation happens due to unlimited isk potential, isk doesn't get blown up, tritanium gets blown up.

EvEs currency should be resources.


Your game without a fiat currency would fail. The market in your game would be slow and painfully inconvenient to use. The only trade system you would have would be 'want to trade'. yeah it would suck, it would suck worse than this thread.


No you could exchange goods for resources through the market, instead of having isk, you'd have to physically move your gold from one station to the other and then trade it to the bankers on that station to receive your item, the great thing about this system is the risk involved, you can remove the gold from the game permanently by killing someone. Having to transport your alliances currency would make for more thrilling gameplay mechanics. We'd also make it so resources run out, and in order to generate new resources you have to explore more space, once you mine a moon for 100 years the moon minerals shouldn't respawn when server comes up.


Sorry but your an idiot. There is a limited number of systems, and eventually you would have to add new systems with new resources or the game would end. Respawning resources at a given interval is easier than adding system upon system to accomplish the same thing.


It is a good thing space is infinite, it isn't the same thing either, one is realistic and one is fake. If an alliances controls the milky way and is taking all of the resources, eventually that alliance has to move out of the milky way, if a rare resource is found in another galaxy/system one alliance must decide to go to war in order to capture this rare resource thats capable of generating untold destruction, my game would be how space is, eve is space socialism with very little risk.

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Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#24 - 2014-02-20 12:20:20 UTC
The only "passive" income I know of is renting out space. Or the "Landlording" as already discussed.

What I feel is even weirder in this thread is "more people should be more efficient than just 1 cos this is an MMO"
I mean; CCP is advertising creating alts like crazy. Because... more "people" is more effective. Didn't you know about Orca boosts for mining, fleetbonusses in general or how 2 dudes running anoms will make more than 1 dude?

I completely agree with: More effort = more ISK
I just think that's already the case.
Grunanca
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-02-20 12:21:07 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:


Passive generation of resources can be attributed not just to resource generation, but also isk generation through botting. I think if we removed ISK and went to a resource based economy things in EvE would be less inflated due to the risk involved in running mining operations, and moving resources to trade hubs. I think currency in the form of credits that can endlessly be made from nothing is bad for the games economy.

If I designed a game, we wouldn't have a fiat currency, we wouldn't have unlimited asteroids either. Where does the ISK placed on the pirate npc come from, who generates that isk? The game creates this isk from thin air, with no tangible backing to give it value, like gold, this is why isk inflation happens due to unlimited isk potential, isk doesn't get blown up, tritanium gets blown up.

EvEs currency should be resources.


Your game without a fiat currency would fail. The market in your game would be slow and painfully inconvenient to use. The only trade system you would have would be 'want to trade'. yeah it would suck, it would suck worse than this thread.


No you could exchange goods for resources through the market, instead of having isk, you'd have to physically move your gold from one station to the other and then trade it to the bankers on that station to receive your item, the great thing about this system is the risk involved, you can remove the gold from the game permanently by killing someone. Having to transport your alliances currency would make for more thrilling gameplay mechanics. We'd also make it so resources run out, and in order to generate new resources you have to explore more space, once you mine a moon for 100 years the moon minerals shouldn't respawn when server comes up.


Even after several detailed threads telling you how it works, you still go on in the same wrong direction...

Basically you claim that moon mining and PI generates isk from nowehere. This had already been proven to be wrong. Its simply making a resource someone needs and make them farm isk to pay for it. Then you want to remove isk and make resources the currency. Well, then resources would become the new isk, and now you can make it passively through moon mining and PI. Basically you are one big contradiction. Only way to make isk in this game is by killing rats, missions, incursions, WH blue loot or by getting blown up and get insurance. Yes, you dying actually inflates the economy. Anything else is just money swapping hands. This has nothing to do with inflation, nor passive isk making. The products are not worth more than what someone wants to pay for it.
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2014-02-20 12:21:38 UTC
Ah, well, hats off you netted me.

I award this thread Ron Paul/10 troll points.

The killing combination was the gold-standard advocacy combined with a three year old's grasp on economics, with the finisher being the fallacious omega particle skit that pretty much lends itself to a deranged and conspiracy driven world view.

Troll on you special flower, troll on.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer
Victor Andall
#27 - 2014-02-20 12:22:27 UTC
OP, stop trying to explain how PI and "passive income" contribute to inflation. You're only embarrassing yourself further. You're simply wrong and everyone who explained it to you is right. Generating resources does not "create" more ISK.

Passive Income is bad for a whole load of other reasons, but you didn't get it right.

TL;DR OP lacks a basic understanding of economics.

I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?

19.08.2014 - Dinsdale gets slammed by CCP Falcon. Never forget.
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-02-20 12:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Knights Armament
It is a good thing space is infinite, it isn't the same thing either, one is realistic and one is fake. If an alliance controls the milky way and is taking all of the resources, eventually that alliance has to move out of the milky way, if a rare resource is found in another galaxy/system one alliance must decide to go to war in order to capture this rare resource thats capable of generating untold destruction, my game would be how space is, eve is space socialism with very little risk.

EvE has a fake physics engine, and a economy based on the idea of unlimited resources, once one group obtains power its nearly impossible to remove that group from power. If I can travel to a different galaxy and find a rare resource, or learn how to generate a big bang or some other type of super weapon I can remove this group from power, in a universe like EvE its basically balanced so nothing exciting ever happens, and its completely fake just like here on earth, until someone in a basement develops super powers and starts knocking out the competition through new weird technology no one understands.

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Mara Denais
Mara Denais Tax Evasion
#29 - 2014-02-20 12:26:14 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
It is a good thing space is infinite, it isn't the same thing either, one is realistic and one is fake. If an alliances controls the milky way and is taking all of the resources, eventually that alliance has to move out of the milky way, if a rare resource is found in another galaxy/system one alliance must decide to go to war in order to capture this rare resource thats capable of generating untold destruction, my game would be how space is, eve is space socialism with very little risk.


Find a venture capitalist or do a kickstarter and risk it, see how well you do Pirate
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2014-02-20 12:28:58 UTC
Mara Denais wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
It is a good thing space is infinite, it isn't the same thing either, one is realistic and one is fake. If an alliances controls the milky way and is taking all of the resources, eventually that alliance has to move out of the milky way, if a rare resource is found in another galaxy/system one alliance must decide to go to war in order to capture this rare resource thats capable of generating untold destruction, my game would be how space is, eve is space socialism with very little risk.


Find a venture capitalist or do a kickstarter and risk it, see how well you do Pirate


Don't encourage him - remember that even David Icke gets published...

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-02-20 12:30:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
No you could exchange goods for resources through the market, instead of having isk, you'd have to physically move your gold from one station to the other and then trade it to the bankers on that station to receive your item
…and it would be slow and painfully inconvenient to use, not to mention be completely arbitrary in what stuff is worth. There's a reason money exists, and it is exactly to remove this wasteful and inefficient system and replace it with one that actually allows for proper trading of large volumes of unequal and incomparable goods.

Quote:
We'd also make it so resources run out, and in order to generate new resources you have to explore more space, once you mine a moon for 100 years the moon minerals shouldn't respawn when server comes up.
Again, it's been tried. It doesn't work. What you describe leads to one thing: hoarding, inflation, and economic collapse.

Games that have tried that model have all been forced to abandon it for a faucet-sink system.


A combination of your reply and just the overall lack of understanding on the OP's part reminds me of a childhood experience that made me feel smart for my years.

When I was 8 or 9 I was in the BX located at Hill Air Force base with my parents. And I was lucky enough to over hear a conversation between anther child and her father. The child wanted some product (of which I do not know). Her father informed her they didn't have money for that product. The child replied "Just write a check!".

Now as most, if not all of you know. A check is just a bank voucher that represents money stored in a banks ledger, I say stored in a banks ledger because money is imaginary because stupid politicians did stupid stuff to make the economy based on stupid things. Sometimes stupid things work.

Anyways bad things happen if the money isn't there when a check is processed. And I understood that to some degree. Well I understood that a check represented money and wasn't some magical device for creating money.

I just lost my train of thought. I think there is a point ^there^ somewhere find it, and be a better person for it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2014-02-20 12:34:19 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
[neo-anarchist conspiratorial nonsense]
…and yet, the function of money is to remove the hideously slow, cumbersome, and inefficient barter system with one where you can do proper trading between large volumes of dissimilar and incomparable goods. That's also why we have that mechanic in the game and why not having it would make the whole thing pretty much unplayable on any kind of scale.

Bartering works in a village of dozens with about as many goods. It does not work in a galaxy of thousands with orders of magnitudes more goods and volumes in the millions.

Quote:
my game would be how space is
Empty? Yes, with the kind of economic system you're envision, that would be the end result.
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-02-20 12:40:06 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
It is a good thing space is infinite, it isn't the same thing either, one is realistic and one is fake. If an alliance controls the milky way and is taking all of the resources, eventually that alliance has to move out of the milky way, if a rare resource is found in another galaxy/system one alliance must decide to go to war in order to capture this rare resource thats capable of generating untold destruction, my game would be how space is, eve is space socialism with very little risk.

EvE has a fake physics engine, and a economy based on the idea of unlimited resources, once one group obtains power its nearly impossible to remove that group from power. If I can travel to a different galaxy and find a rare resource, or learn how to generate a big bang or some other type of super weapon I can remove this group from power, in a universe like EvE its basically balanced so nothing exciting ever happens, and its completely fake just like here on earth, until someone in a basement develops super powers and starts knocking out the competition through new weird technology no one understands.


Spoilers*****





First, space is not infinite. Second but a bit off topic Matter can not be created or destroyed. Recycle Much? Third, this is the huge one. EvE is a game. And duh its balanced, because if you could build said super weapon you would just replace this imagined alliance you think is so hard to topple without said super weapon. And then guess what your back at square one with an entire fake galaxy of pissed off subscribers that can't take the region from you even if it was you vs. everyone else.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#34 - 2014-02-20 12:50:34 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
while moon mining and PI just gives lazy people a way to stop playing while keeping an account active with plex.


First, if you read the quoted sentence carefully you'll see why this is beneficial for CCP and thus potentially for you.

Second, if it's such a non-effort, why don't you do it?
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-02-20 12:50:42 UTC
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
It is a good thing space is infinite, it isn't the same thing either, one is realistic and one is fake. If an alliance controls the milky way and is taking all of the resources, eventually that alliance has to move out of the milky way, if a rare resource is found in another galaxy/system one alliance must decide to go to war in order to capture this rare resource thats capable of generating untold destruction, my game would be how space is, eve is space socialism with very little risk.

EvE has a fake physics engine, and a economy based on the idea of unlimited resources, once one group obtains power its nearly impossible to remove that group from power. If I can travel to a different galaxy and find a rare resource, or learn how to generate a big bang or some other type of super weapon I can remove this group from power, in a universe like EvE its basically balanced so nothing exciting ever happens, and its completely fake just like here on earth, until someone in a basement develops super powers and starts knocking out the competition through new weird technology no one understands.


Spoilers*****





First, space is not infinite. Second but a bit off topic Matter can not be created or destroyed. Recycle Much? Third, this is the huge one. EvE is a game. And duh its balanced, because if you could build said super weapon you would just replace this imagined alliance you think is so hard to topple without said super weapon. And then guess what your back at square one with an entire fake galaxy of pissed off subscribers that can't take the region from you even if it was you vs. everyone else.


Space is expanding faster than lightspeed, you have no way of knowing if it will ever end, also multi-verse theory means we have unlimited universes/multiverses, so yes space in terms of our current technological capability is infinite.

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-02-20 12:53:45 UTC
embrel wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
while moon mining and PI just gives lazy people a way to stop playing while keeping an account active with plex.


First, if you read the quoted sentence carefully you'll see why this is beneficial for CCP and thus potentially for you.

Second, if it's such a non-effort, why don't you do it?


It makes the game boring, I am not looking for a game to login train skills and logout like the majority of the defenders of this system.

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Felicity Love
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-02-20 12:55:21 UTC
OP is right... passive income needs to be removed... so "buh-bye" Null Sec "Rent-a-Slum" ghettos.... and "Moons-4-Less"... absentee Landlords need not apply...

Roll

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-02-20 12:57:05 UTC
If I have discovered a technology that can destroy earth, I dictate what has value, because I have power. Money has no value, because the people who create the money have been removed from power. Currency = resources.

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#39 - 2014-02-20 12:59:31 UTC
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:


Passive generation of resources can be attributed not just to resource generation, but also isk generation through botting. I think if we removed ISK and went to a resource based economy things in EvE would be less inflated due to the risk involved in running mining operations, and moving resources to trade hubs. I think currency in the form of credits that can endlessly be made from nothing is bad for the games economy.

If I designed a game, we wouldn't have a fiat currency, we wouldn't have unlimited asteroids either. Where does the ISK placed on the pirate npc come from, who generates that isk? The game creates this isk from thin air, with no tangible backing to give it value, like gold, this is why isk inflation happens due to unlimited isk potential, isk doesn't get blown up, tritanium gets blown up.

EvEs currency should be resources.


Your game without a fiat currency would fail. The market in your game would be slow and painfully inconvenient to use. The only trade system you would have would be 'want to trade'. yeah it would suck, it would suck worse than this thread.


A small MMO called Saga of Ryzom did have some fiat-currency which was basically pointless as it was missing sinks. This lead to non-existent markets.

so, if you wanted anything usable you had to know a crafter and make a deal directly with him.

the advantages of a currency hold true in an MMO as they do in real life.
Mara Denais
Mara Denais Tax Evasion
#40 - 2014-02-20 13:00:37 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
If I have discovered a technology that can destroy earth, I dictate what has value, because I have power. Money has no value, because the people who create the money have been removed from power. Currency = resources.


Want a gold medal or something? You're going down the sanity slope faster than an areodynamic slalom atlethe would on snow.