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Does Eve need new players?

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-02-21 06:01:47 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Support a noobie today, buy them a mining permit and show them www.minerbumping.com


For the record, in this game, it's only yours if you can defend it. This applies to The Code's followers and regulators as well.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
DSpite Culhach
#142 - 2014-02-21 06:13:20 UTC
I could not in all honesty - regarding the group of friends that I know atm, not a general statement for everyone - tell any of them "play EVE you will love it".

The closest I could come to it would be to treat it like boxed game and say to them "Give me some cash, I'll turn it to PLEX and get you a semi-decent starter toon. I'll chip in an extra free month for you with the buddy thingy, and you can try EVE with me and I can at least teach you what NOT to do. If you hate it, well, we sell the toon, and I buy you Vodka instead. After EVE, you will need alcohol. Lots of alcohol."

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Uma D
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2014-02-21 09:12:16 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


Ladies and gentlemen, please don't abandon your morals, in order to win a game. Taking the queen in Chess just proves what a kidnapping rapist mysogynst you are!


That makes me think of that chess game scene in Mel Brook´s "History of the world" :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImLiQOaknMs in case you do not know what i am talking about (jump to 1:45).
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2014-02-21 10:12:33 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Very funny, but you can only ignore the real kills to deny my claim....

A little bit of trolling here. Your good friend MrLogik (yes, i know you love him) has kill from 2013-12-17 21:52:00. He soloed Loki in his Catalyst. You can check it in eve-kill (i won't post killmail because of forum rules).

One can say anything about SP/experience/neutral logi/luck/whatever. But this kill was made because of AFKing. Loki pilot was afk.

So simple killmail doesn't prove anything.

However i agree on main point: SP doesn't make you winner. It makes it easier but after all it's player experience and luck what makes a difference.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2014-02-21 11:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
March rabbit wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Very funny, but you can only ignore the real kills to deny my claim....

A little bit of trolling here. Your good friend MrLogik (yes, i know you love him) has kill from 2013-12-17 21:52:00. He soloed Loki in his Catalyst. You can check it in eve-kill (i won't post killmail because of forum rules).

One can say anything about SP/experience/neutral logi/luck/whatever. But this kill was made because of AFKing. Loki pilot was afk.

So simple killmail doesn't prove anything.

However i agree on main point: SP doesn't make you winner. It makes it easier but after all it's player experience and luck what makes a difference.


You're right, the data itself doesn't prove anything. That's why I included my own lossmail, a whole extra dataset that when cross-referenced, shows that the pilot that died to me was on it, showing he most definitely fought as well. In fact, it was he that aggressed me, because I was suspect, on a station. I was after pilots in a different alliance, he was there, and I decided not to aggress since he was a distraction. He then aggressed me, and I fought back, then a Tengu undocked and I tanked them both, killing the Gnosis, waiting for my friends three jumps out to get to me.

Once they arrived, after the Gnosis had died, they told me to pop my cyno, and they'd get a triage Archon to me. They all arrived and took over killing the Tengu, and the Archon..... well, it landed, but the Archon pilot was new to triage and didn't realise that there were two Gnosis on grid. He assumed I was dead, there was some miscommunication, and I ended up losing a Gnosis, but it went down guns blazing and not without one of my favourite personal trophy kills of all time so far.

I told the whole story, I didn't just put up a killmail and provide no context.

Additionally, this isn't a pissing contest, I'm not here to compete with anyone, I'm here to demonstrate why skillpoints aren't necessarily the deciding factor in any engagement.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Bantara
Dolmite Cornerstone
#146 - 2014-02-21 14:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bantara
as usual, no one gets the idea of rl morals in a competitive game. *sigh*... How many times does this need to be explained??

You know those pilots referred to earlier who will jump on a noob in low-sec, blow them up, then start a convo to give them advice and even maybe some isk? +1 to those people. That's rl morals in the game. It's being considerate that that's another person on the other side of your guns who may be completely confused and lost as to what just happened and why. And would really enjoy going out there doing solo pvp, if only they understood it....

Having rl morals in a competitive game doesn't mean you aren't trying to win, or that you aren't aggressive. A wrestler, for instance (not an actor, a wrestler,) needs to be aggressive on the mat or he might as well flop over and give up a pin. He also needs to be merciless. But he doesn't need to actually bear ill will towards his component.

It isn't bad morals to take the queen in chess. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to shoot a bunch of players in Dust514. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to be a pirate in Eve-O. It's a valid option in the game.
It's bad morals when you don't give a feces about how anyone other than yourself feels about it. That's an aspect of your lack of compassion, your egotism, and your self-centeredness, given greater free reign to show its ugly face because of internet anonymity. Maybe you think that's okay, and that's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

The simple fact this has to be pointed out is evidence enough that for some of you your in-game morals are closer to your rl morals than you claim.

I'll be done with this. I hope that cleared it up for at least 1 person.

(forum blanked out f e ces? really?)
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#147 - 2014-02-21 14:44:31 UTC
Bantara wrote:
as usual, no one gets the idea of rl morals in a competitive game. *sigh*... How many times does this need to be explained??

You know those pilots referred to earlier who will jump on a noob in low-sec, blow them up, then start a convo to give them advice and even maybe some isk? +1 to those people. That's rl morals in the game. It's being considerate that that's another person on the other side of your guns who may be completely confused and lost as to what just happened and why. And would really enjoy going out there doing solo pvp, if only they understood it....

Having rl morals in a competitive game doesn't mean you aren't trying to win, or that you aren't aggressive. A wrestler, for instance (not an actor, a wrestler,) needs to be aggressive on the mat or he might as well flop over and give up a pin. He also needs to be merciless. But he doesn't need to actually bear ill will towards his component.

It isn't bad morals to take the queen in chess. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to shoot a bunch of players in Dust514. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to be a pirate in Eve-O. It's a valid option in the game.
It's bad morals when you don't give a ***** about how anyone other than yourself feels about it. That's an aspect of your lack of compassion, your egotism, and your self-centeredness, given greater free reign to show its ugly face because of internet anonymity. Maybe you think that's okay, and that's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

The simple fact this has to be pointed out is evidence enough that for some of you your in-game morals are closer to your rl morals than you claim.

I'll be done with this. I hope that cleared it up for at least 1 person.

(forum blanked out f e ces? really?)




Agree

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#148 - 2014-02-21 19:00:37 UTC
Quote:
It isn't bad morals to take the queen in chess. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to shoot a bunch of players in Dust514. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to be a pirate in Eve-O. It's a valid option in the game.
It's bad morals when you don't give a ***** about how anyone other than yourself feels about it.


Lol, so...

If I win, you want me to feel bad for you? Is that how this works? Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Anslo
Scope Works
#149 - 2014-02-21 19:06:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
It isn't bad morals to take the queen in chess. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to shoot a bunch of players in Dust514. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to be a pirate in Eve-O. It's a valid option in the game.
It's bad morals when you don't give a ***** about how anyone other than yourself feels about it.


Lol, so...

If I win, you want me to feel bad for you? Is that how this works? Roll

No it's kindly asking you to not be such a raging prat.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#150 - 2014-02-21 19:09:35 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
It isn't bad morals to take the queen in chess. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to shoot a bunch of players in Dust514. It's the game.
It isn't bad morals to be a pirate in Eve-O. It's a valid option in the game.
It's bad morals when you don't give a ***** about how anyone other than yourself feels about it.


Lol, so...

If I win, you want me to feel bad for you? Is that how this works? Roll

No it's kindly asking you to not be such a raging prat.


What he's doing, btw, is called emotional hostage taking. And I don't subscribe to that bullshit.

I win. I feel good about it. I won't apologize for that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#151 - 2014-02-22 05:57:03 UTC
Who else are the blue-donut of lame gonna attack? Non-null vets won't be going to feed their blobs anytime soon.
Daneo Mistry
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2014-02-22 11:33:14 UTC
This game is a song...... Frank Sinatra, That life. lol
Oliver Wendel Jones
Citizens of Fernando Po
#153 - 2014-02-22 13:08:35 UTC
Heh, well, it was the immediate response I expected having read many other posts. You start to see a pattern, and I have seen many of the type. Looks like a struck a nerve ;) Regardless, it was a commentary on those who resort to flaming rather than a reasoned argument. Many of those have been made here, even if I don't agree with many of them.

One thing I noticed is that much of the discussion seems to focus on this idea of skill points. My earlier mention of them, or of being forever behind the players who started earlier, are way off the point. I don't think you should change the skillpoint system, it should take time to get up in level, and choosing and learning the skills is part of the process as you learn the game. And low or null sec is not the issue on this thread, either.

My point is that it is too easy for a few players with advanced ships and modules to prey on carefully chosen small corps of players who haven't developed the skills or ships to be able to effectively defend themselves. In low and null sec, this is not the problem. You go there when you are ready. In high sec it should not be so easy for multiple war decs causing these newer players to have to spend a week or more docked up rather than playing the game. And you can throw all the "they shoulds" around that you want, but the only real option for those players is to dock up because most haven't learned enough about the game to understand or have worked towards the skills and equipment to do anything else.

But reading through these, it is obvious that so many people on here look for any justification to support their attacks on people who can't defend themselves because they can't risk going after people in their own league.
Your Dad Naked
Doomheim
#154 - 2014-02-22 18:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Your Dad Naked
EVE is a sandbox game that is driven by the community. Time and time again CCP advertises how it's the sandbox and social aspects of EVE online that truly define the game.

Why then should players - especially new players - who are uncomfortable with the mechanics of combat be forced to sit in an NPC corp? The removal of CONCORD, through the use of wardecs, is what causes so many players or small groups of players to become recluse in their little corner system in high-sec. Is that not counter to the entire point of the game; building an atmosphere that supports the forging of relationships and community involvement?

Simply put the wardec system needs some sort of overhaul. In it's current state it allows an experienced PVP corp to turn high-sec into bubbleless NPC nullsec for any corp of their choosing, for a measly 50mil ISK. It takes PVP combat too far when considering it's supposed to be safer than other space.
By comparison, the CONCORD mechanic is fairly balanced and allows pilots to make wise decisions in order to balance risk and reward.
Hulk vs Skiff is an obvious example.
Hauling expensive goods all at once vs multiple hauls is another.

This is a good way to introduce pilots to the PVP nature of the game. Allow them to make bad risks and get bit for it. Slowly, they learn but rarely feel overwhelmed. Most importantly, they aren't stuck in a station for 1 week while being taunted in chat by sad, bratty adults.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#155 - 2014-02-22 18:46:35 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:

My point is that it is too easy for a few players with advanced ships and modules to prey on carefully chosen small corps of players who haven't developed the skills or ships to be able to effectively defend themselves.
Why would you start a war you know you can't win?

Quote:
In low and null sec, this is not the problem. You go there when you are ready. In high sec it should not be so easy for multiple war decs
Why not? By design highsec is just as much a PvP area as any other area of space.

Quote:
causing these newer players to have to spend a week or more docked up rather than playing the game. And you can throw all the "they shoulds" around that you want, but the only real option for those players is to dock up because most haven't learned enough about the game to understand or have worked towards the skills and equipment to do anything else
I'll let you in on a little secret, when I subbed from the trial I joined a newbie corp that was wardecced the next week. The corp CEO insisted on turtling up in stations, a few of the more foolhardy newbies, me included, decided to ignore him and take the fight to the enemy. We died frequently, but we had fun and learned from it. We also got some respect from our much more accomplished enemy for actually having to balls to try and burn them down, with low SP characters in frigates. They gave us feedback on fits and tactics, even reimbursed some of our losses so that we could continue trying to fight them.

The only thing preventing any player from undocking in a war, is themselves. The best time to get wardecced is as a newbie, your ships and fits are cheap (relatively) and so are your clones and implants. You'll learn more about Eve from fighting a war than you will from years of shooting at red crosses and hiding in stations from "the bad people". Waiting until you're ready for PvP in terms of SP is a bullshit idea, you can be PvP capable in a matter of hours with a new character, it's known as a 10 hour hero and people such as Goonswarm use them to deadly effect.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#156 - 2014-02-22 18:56:55 UTC
Your Dad Naked wrote:
EVE is a sandbox game that is driven by the community. Time and time again CCP advertises how it's the sandbox and social aspects of EVE online that truly define the game.

Why then should players - especially new players - who are uncomfortable with the mechanics of combat be forced to sit in an NPC corp?


Sandbox means that you can try whatever you want to do. It does not mean that you will succeed at it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Victoria Thorne
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#157 - 2014-02-22 21:07:19 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:


My point is that it is too easy for a few players with advanced ships and modules to prey on carefully chosen small corps of players who haven't developed the skills or ships to be able to effectively defend themselves. In low and null sec, this is not the problem. You go there when you are ready. In high sec it should not be so easy for multiple war decs causing these newer players to have to spend a week or more docked up rather than playing the game. And you can throw all the "they shoulds" around that you want, but the only real option for those players is to dock up because most haven't learned enough about the game to understand or have worked towards the skills and equipment to do anything else.




If I'm not mistaken, your original post was about a corp which billed itself as training new players. If that was the case, a large part of training new players should be teaching them how to deal with wardecs, even if its not a pvp centric corp. I've always viewed it as the test of whether a corp like that is fit to survive.

There are a lot of options besides docking up. Go to low-sec, for instance. Most high sec war dec corps aren't interested in following. Spend a week there getting your new players some combat experience and tactical awareness, then return.

The question isn't whether the new players are capable of surviving, it's whether the leadership that claims to be training them is capable of holding them together when things aren't going their way. There are a lot of options out there, if you look for them.


Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#158 - 2014-02-22 21:16:34 UTC
Your Dad Naked wrote:
EVE is a sandbox game that is driven by the community. Time and time again CCP advertises how it's the sandbox and social aspects of EVE online that truly define the game.

Why then should players - especially new players - who are uncomfortable with the mechanics of combat be forced to sit in an NPC corp? The removal of CONCORD, through the use of wardecs, is what causes so many players or small groups of players to become recluse in their little corner system in high-sec. Is that not counter to the entire point of the game; building an atmosphere that supports the forging of relationships and community involvement?

Simply put the wardec system needs some sort of overhaul. In it's current state it allows an experienced PVP corp to turn high-sec into bubbleless NPC nullsec for any corp of their choosing, for a measly 50mil ISK. It takes PVP combat too far when considering it's supposed to be safer than other space.
By comparison, the CONCORD mechanic is fairly balanced and allows pilots to make wise decisions in order to balance risk and reward.
Hulk vs Skiff is an obvious example.
Hauling expensive goods all at once vs multiple hauls is another.

This is a good way to introduce pilots to the PVP nature of the game. Allow them to make bad risks and get bit for it. Slowly, they learn but rarely feel overwhelmed. Most importantly, they aren't stuck in a station for 1 week while being taunted in chat by sad, bratty adults.


Spoon feeding is not and should never ever be a part of EVE. If a new player can't figure his way out of difficult situations (like war decs) why is he playing a video game? Games are about figuring things out, if it wasn't, it wouldn't be a game.

A real EVE player figures out how to fight back, evade, or group with stronger groups for protection. The true failure of this game is that is has a high sec so safe that "slniking off to a corner of high sec" rather than playing the game is an option.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-02-22 22:59:05 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Spoon feeding is not and should never ever be a part of EVE. If a new player can't figure his way out of difficult situations (like war decs) why is he playing a video game? Games are about figuring things out, if it wasn't, it wouldn't be a game.

look at it from other side: you spend few years of your life just getting ready to it. Most laws say you can life by yourself after 16-18 (!!!!) years of such preparation.

The same is with games. You need some time just to find yourself there. First week/month is very important. Yes, Eve is harsh yada-yada.... But some help to even start the game is always needed.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2014-02-23 02:08:06 UTC
So it looks like the elitists vs. rational people divide has erupted into open war here. What fun

First of all, saying that SP is irrelevant amounts to nothing short of inexcusable stupidity, or simple denial. When I started this game, any pvp encounter (players shooting at each other's spaceships; the idea of market pvp is utter nonsense) I engaged in was going to pit me against someone with access to better ships and better mods whose ship and often times drones performed vastly better than mine by simple virtue of the fact that their skill queue has been running far longer. In order to change this, I have to change the terms of the engagement away from a simple 1v1 which is unwinnable for me. And since part of being an elite pvp player is avoiding any fight you aren't 100% guaranteed to win, this means that my time in lowsec is spent avoiding all combat whilst hunting furiously for month old toons in npc corps. We could spend a lot of time on the details and semantics; but expecting new players to gleefully sacrifice their ship to someone whose own ship is better at everything because they've been playing longer, and then express their undying gratitude for the lesson; you're truly dense if you repeat this idiocy.

What did I learn? Don't fight people older than me flying assault frigates, also known as 90% of solo roamers.

As far as hisec wardecs are concerned, I don't quite see the point other than providing targets for spacerich merc alts supplemented by neutral combat scanners. I can't fight your t2/faction cruisers with inties in the lead and when you see faction drones on a killmail, you KNOW someone has too much money. My options are 1) hide in lowsec, which can be fun but doesn't make **** for money (exploration is tedious and unrewarding especially if you don't want to waste a month training the applicable skills.) Or 2) I can just dock whenever WT are online, which would be 24/7. Local tank isn't much good when they don't have to use a hostile toon to stalk you.

You know what? I agree that a lot of this **** makes to game interesting. I'm not necessarily in favor of removing the mechanics for hisec ganking/griefing.

What I dislike are the elitist scum who claim that we're on an equal footing when they have 100m sp and I have 2m. It's a game, don't take yourself so seriously. If your idea of fun is denying it to other people, at least don't insult their intelligence by pretending it's a fair fight. The comparisons to chess or CS are terrible, I don't start a chess match with an extra pawn instead of a queen and Counterstrike doesn't require me to spend a month dodging AWPs with a glock before I have the skills to use an mp5.

There should be a place in EVE where people can generate income while skilling up in relative safety; that place is hisec. I you can't find a good fight anywhere else and your sole joy in playing eve is trying to make people ragequit who you have a default advantage over - if this is true then I think this game has bigger problems than the increasing difficulty of picking up cheap killmails in hisec.

If you enjoy being an elitist *******, don't insult me by trying to rationalize it. Hell, you could even stop.