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Does Eve need new players?

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Oliver Wendel Jones
Citizens of Fernando Po
#1 - 2014-02-18 19:09:17 UTC
Ok, so I will get ready for the flames...
But I've read some news articles about how CCP is not attracting the new players needed to keep the game going and is trying to raise revenues through gimmicks like the noble exchange. Personally, I don't care what my toon is wearing. I'm more interested in what is going on outside the station.

I've tried to get new guys involved in the game, and it always comes down to the same problem. There is a massive advantage for people who have been playing for a long time, and also for those who can devote a lot of time to the game. Casual players are going to be at a huge disadvantage. Not a big deal in itself, but the problem is that many players get their jollies by preying on the new players. And fuel their sense of keyboard based superiority by calling them carebears, telling them that Eve is brutal, get over it, etc.

Now if these players roam into lowsec where there is an expectation of being attacked, then sure, that's their fault. But when new players are being bombarded by suicide gankers and war decs in high sec, then they feel like they don't have a place to go where they can learn and build up to the point that they can join in the pvp stuff.

I have friends with a high sec corp. They like to do pve and they don't bother other players. Their corp is specifically listed as a training corp for new players. Someone who is logged into the game 20 hours a day war decced the training corp so he could attack them in high sec. Funny thing is, this person only comes out of station in the nice tech 3 ships he has to attack the players when they are alone. When approached by several of the corps ships, he stays right next to station and docks up as soon as he drops to hull. Won't come out if there are more than 3 or 4 of the corps members online. So while this person overwhelms this corps players when they are alone, the kills get the attention of other corps that act the same way, so a training corp ends up getting multiple war decs in high sec. So their only option is to stay docked up. So they end up paying for a game they can't play because a lot of other players can't get their jollies by "picking on someone their own size" essentially.

And so they are going to get frustrated and leave the game. And it's going to deter new players from ever getting into the game. Is the ease of attacking newer players in high sec worth the game not getting new players? Not every player who could be paying for the game and promoting the development is going to be able to devote the time needed to become a null sec pirate. But these players benefit the game in many ways. Can the game survive if the majority of players are able to play for free by selling plex? Someone without the time to farm isk is going to have to pay actual money for time, and that money is what keeps CCP developing. Is it going to be much fun when driving away new and potential players results in the game dying off?

Ok, let the flaming begin.
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#2 - 2014-02-18 19:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Slade Trillgon
Games always need new players........ and yes I answered without reading Bear

EDIT: New players will typically be the primary individuals that are upset about being left behind. All CCP needs to do is, through the tutorial, teach them that being effective in a ship only utilizes a small portion of a vets SP pool and that it really does not take that much time to become effective at sub battleship T1 hulls. They also need to explain the difficulty of the game more clearly and that it is this difficulty that provides the environment where one can learn to do what you do in a frigate first before you start trying to do it in a destroyer-->cruiser--> battle cruiser.

EDIT 2: How is buying and selling plex playing for free?

EDIT 3: EvE survival is about evasion for people that like to avoid ship pvp. Get your corp clones in different parts of the Universe and when someone like you listed in the OP shows up and starts to make your play time ineffective then all of you can just pop into a new clone 50 jumps away. Rinse and repeat.
Uma D
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-02-18 19:16:01 UTC
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Games always need new players........ and yes I answered without reading Bear


Do not worry.. you did not miss anything ;).
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4 - 2014-02-18 19:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
I've tried to get new guys involved in the game, and it always comes down to the same problem. There is a massive advantage for people who have been playing for a long time, and also for those who can devote a lot of time to the game.
Huh… that's pretty odd seeing as how the game is pretty brilliantly designed in that it doesn't offer any unsurmountable advantages just because you've been playing for long and also contains a bunch of nifty anti-poopsocking mechanics. It's pretty unique in how you can take a very casual attitude and still not be at a serious disadvantage.

Quote:
But when new players are being bombarded by suicide gankers and war decs in high sec, then they feel like they don't have a place to go where they can learn and build up to the point that they can join in the pvp stuff.
Neither of those really happens, though, and the place to go to learn and build up to where you can join the PvP stuff is called highsec… or lowsec… or nullsec. Your choice really. The main thing is that “build up to the point that you can join” is pretty much the exact opposite of what you want to do since that just means you will never be ready. Instead, you just jump right in: lose early, lose often, learn from your mistakes. No amount of waiting for points to accumulate will ever provide any benefit compared to not waiting.

Quote:
I have friends with a high sec corp. They like to do pve and they don't bother other players. Their corp is specifically listed as a training corp for new players.
Main problem there: when you join a corp, the gloves come off. That's part of the point of a corp. Also, if a corp is meant to train new players, one of the most critical bullet points on that training list is to teach them how to survive and thrive in a hostile environment. If the corp can't do that, it's more of a griefing corp than a teaching corp and does more harm than good to the new players. For instance, one of the worst things you can do is just dock up rather than take advantage of the free opportunities of wardecs to go out and shoot people in dirt-cheap ships and free clones. Lose early, lose often, remember?

Staying docked up is a sure way to make them frustrated when they could instead go out and blast stuff and have fun. Of course, if they keep being lied to about how they must wait until they have more SP or until they can fly some specific ship or that they must not play the game or about how old players have massive advantages, then of course they will quit… for all the wrong reasons. So don't be a griefer — stop lying to the new players and stop teaching them to be victims.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-02-18 19:30:44 UTC
There's always someone who is ahead of you, knows more, has more money. Being sad because you are not the king of all things 2 days after downloading a game is juvenile. Thinking that while knowing that everyone else started the same place as you makes you seem like a little ***** in a video game. I can understand being like that IRL, but this is fantasy, you are an immortal demigod of the galaxy. Go with it.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
NFain
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-02-18 19:40:13 UTC
A valid point arises, what is simply missing is rewards for being the good guy. EVE works as risk vs reward, and what we're failing to attract is the good guy player persona. The bad guy is always glorified, through the news and etc, whats the next big heist? But nobody ever sees the good deeds, most players DO NOT like to play in that kind of environment, they want to know that what they're doing is going to be rewarded as significantly as the other.

Also to add, war dec shields coming winter 2014 :D, im calling it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#7 - 2014-02-18 19:47:58 UTC
Wow, this will take me a while.

Quote:
There is a massive advantage for people who have been playing for a long time, and also for those who can devote a lot of time to the game. Casual players are going to be at a huge disadvantage.


Neither of those things are a problem. Casual players, in fact, are at a huge advantage compared to older players, as iterations of skills take progressively longer, allowing the newer players to close the gap faster than the veteran players can increase it.

Besides that, the advantages that veteran players do have, they earned. If they can leverage that, good for them.

Quote:
Their corp is specifically listed as a training corp for new players.


This is a mistake, and a pretty big one. You might as well jump in a shark tank and cut your palms. It serves no good for said corp, only negatives. Idk about anyone else, but when I was wardeccing often, I would go through the corp listings looking for "new player friendly", not because I was targeting noobs, but because the kind of corp that puts their on their advertisement is likely to give up easy kills.

Secondly, each and every one of them belongs in an NPC corp if they are not prepared or willing to defend themselves. It's really that simple.

Quote:
And so they are going to get frustrated and leave the game. And it's going to deter new players from ever getting into the game.


The solution is much simpler than that. Just drop corp, and remain in an NPC corp.

Quote:
Is the ease of attacking newer players in high sec worth the game not getting new players?


Yes. Player freedom > all.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Oliver Wendel Jones
Citizens of Fernando Po
#8 - 2014-02-18 19:57:47 UTC
So what I see is that unless you are already running tech 3 ships or have plenty of corp mates online all the time, you shouldn't really play the game. You can't join a small corp who wants to play casually for an hour or so a couple times a week together and enjoy the group dynamic without being harassed by groups who really can't risk anything more than the "easy kill". No, we shouldn't make any slight changes that would encourage players of a certain level to leave lower level players alone, so perhaps those players develop. Heh, I can see the chunky kid behind the keyboard who got pushed around on the playground thinking he get's his revenge on Eve. And from all I read on these forums, it really is about a fear that the higher level players will lose their easy targets. Can't have that. It's all about risk, right? Just as long as it's the other guy's risk, not yours.
Chimay
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-02-18 19:58:44 UTC
NFain wrote:
A valid point arises, what is simply missing is rewards for being the good guy. EVE works as risk vs reward, and what we're failing to attract is the good guy player persona. The bad guy is always glorified, through the news and etc, whats the next big heist? But nobody ever sees the good deeds, most players DO NOT like to play in that kind of environment, they want to know that what they're doing is going to be rewarded as significantly as the other.

Also to add, war dec shields coming winter 2014 :D, im calling it.


Nfain,

I never looked at it that way. Now that you mention it, I think something like that would be awesome. If there were rewards and such for being good I could see myself making changes in my game play rapidity. IRL i'm helpful, nice, being respectful and polite is who I am. In EVE, I'm a complete ass hole, the rewards for such actions are far to great for me to consider being anything else but.

I often see new players in lowsec. I mow them down and any other target I have the opportunity too. Ransom, blow up offlline Pos and other "mean" things. To me it's just the way of EVE and the natural flow of how things are. The though never occurred to me to add some form of reward or perks for being nice. Outside of the box thinking, I really like it.




Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-02-18 20:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
So what I see is that unless you are already running tech 3 ships or have plenty of corp mates online all the time, you shouldn't really play the game. You can't join a small corp who wants to play casually for an hour or so a couple times a week together and enjoy the group dynamic without being harassed by groups who really can't risk anything more than the "easy kill". No, we shouldn't make any slight changes that would encourage players of a certain level to leave lower level players alone, so perhaps those players develop. Heh, I can see the chunky kid behind the keyboard who got pushed around on the playground thinking he get's his revenge on Eve. And from all I read on these forums, it really is about a fear that the higher level players will lose their easy targets. Can't have that. It's all about risk, right? Just as long as it's the other guy's risk, not yours.


Then you are not seeing enough.

And what is it with this equating how one plays a video game to what they're like in real life? I see this all too often amongst the high-sec 'soloers' who think they have some kind of personal space in this single-shard environment beyond what they have docked up. Does it help you validate yourself to imagine that you must be better IRL than the people that beat you in a video game? Let me tell you about that chunky kid behind the keyboard who got pushed around on the playground. You seem to think there's something wrong with that person as a result, even if he is seeking some form of revenge. You seem to be stating it as if that person is beneath you, as if he deserved what he got and isn't entitled to that revenge.

But at the end of the day, irony has its way, and that is precisely how you place yourself beneath him. I wouldn't be surprised if it was you pushing the chunky kid around in school.

There is no such thing as an easy target that doesn't make itself so. L2P.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Oliver Wendel Jones
Citizens of Fernando Po
#11 - 2014-02-18 20:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Oliver Wendel Jones
No, I was the small, skinny kid who was likely to get pushed around on the playground, so I recognize the type. Though I grew up, joined the military, then became a cop and spent my time trying to stop those jackholes who pray on the weak. I guess that is why I don't like the type I see to often here. The idea of a reward system for being the good guy does appeal to me.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#12 - 2014-02-18 20:09:21 UTC
Some knowledgeable person should give OP some useful advice on how to beat the wardec problem. That's why the corp isn't enjoying the game-- they don't know how to counter the wardecs.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-02-18 20:09:34 UTC
Chimay wrote:
NFain wrote:
A valid point arises, what is simply missing is rewards for being the good guy. EVE works as risk vs reward, and what we're failing to attract is the good guy player persona. The bad guy is always glorified, through the news and etc, whats the next big heist? But nobody ever sees the good deeds, most players DO NOT like to play in that kind of environment, they want to know that what they're doing is going to be rewarded as significantly as the other.

Also to add, war dec shields coming winter 2014 :D, im calling it.


Nfain,

I never looked at it that way. Now that you mention it, I think something like that would be awesome. If there were rewards and such for being good I could see myself making changes in my game play rapidity. IRL i'm helpful, nice, being respectful and polite is who I am. In EVE, I'm a complete ass hole, the rewards for such actions are far to great for me to consider being anything else but.

I often see new players in lowsec. I mow them down and any other target I have the opportunity too. Ransom, blow up offlline Pos and other "mean" things. To me it's just the way of EVE and the natural flow of how things are. The though never occurred to me to add some form of reward or perks for being nice. Outside of the box thinking, I really like it.






The reward for doing good and helping people is making friends, connections and allies.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-02-18 20:12:58 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
No, I was the small, skinny kid who was likely to get pushed around on the playground, so I recognize the type. Though I grew up, joined the military, then became a cop and spent my time trying to stop those jackholes who pray on the weak. I guess that is why I don't like the type I see to often here. The idea of a reward system for being the good guy does appeal to me.


But you aren't seeing a 'type' here at all, you are seeing a style of gameplay. Tell me, do you go around arresting people who play GTA? Stop trying to profile people according to how they play a video game, it just makes you look like you're making excuses. You're not here to enforce the law, you're here to play a game with no real-world consequences. If you cannot handle that game, or learn from your mistakes and losses in it, then it is simply not for you.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Oliver Wendel Jones
Citizens of Fernando Po
#15 - 2014-02-18 20:12:58 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Some knowledgeable person should give OP some useful advice on how to beat the wardec problem. That's why the corp isn't enjoying the game-- they don't know how to counter the wardecs.


The problem is, you make suggestions on how to ease it up on the new people and the gangs who can't get by without their easy targets start flaming.

Maybe something along the lines of comparing average skill points of the war deccing corp to the average skill points of the target corp and basing the cost of the dec on that? Right now it's a cheap thing to war dec a corp in high sec and pick off their players running level 3's in their tech 1 ships.
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-02-18 20:13:42 UTC
he is in a t3 he alone? , how much ppl you guys get online? make a tech1 frig fleet, hell even 10ecm ibisses wil fack his day , yes he will dock up , hence and repeat and he will drop the war.

or just go to npc corp , make a public chat and you can still fleet up , mine mission or what ever.

About the flaming , its GD lol

o/

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#17 - 2014-02-18 20:19:13 UTC
They could also hire mercs or use the recruit allies thing. A t3 ship is a pretty shiny target that might attract some people.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-02-18 20:24:58 UTC
Yea basically it boils down to people who can't acquire success in avenues non-computer related putting an over exaggerated emphasis on internet accomplishments.

They're not any good at things that require skill and intelligence, so they get their wins from time invested.

They justify their whole, "deal with it" approach because they have to trick themselves into thinking that how they get their feel of self worth is justifiably correct, when really they're just broken people repeating an over used mantra to distract themselves from the cracks in their personas.

This game has alot of really mental people.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#19 - 2014-02-18 20:26:24 UTC
I wasn't aware that new players weren't allowed to team up with older players.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Oliver Wendel Jones
Citizens of Fernando Po
#20 - 2014-02-18 20:27:14 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
They could also hire mercs or use the recruit allies thing. A t3 ship is a pretty shiny target that might attract some people.


From what I am told, they don't have the isk to hire mercs. They don't often have more than 5 or 6 people online at a time, and they don't have the numbers or tech to fight several other players or even 1 T3. But that's the point. People like that who have a low risk to reward incentive. So much talk on here about risk, but so many are only looking to preserve the the risk to reward ratio in their favor. So I'm not talking about doing away with PvP, even in high sec, just adjusting the parameters to make 100mil SP players look at other 100mil sp players rather than 5 mil sp players.
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