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TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending

First post
Author
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
#141 - 2015-01-22 06:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Koniforous
Recently I took down my pos, and decided to seize this opportunity to calculate a near perfect NAV of every asset I have. Previously, I would invest billions into bpo's, and they would disappear from my NAV reports until being sold. Their values+profits being added back into the calculated assets/liquid isk after their sale. This has made for some wild profit and loss differences from month to month. Previously, I would also invest billions into invention supplies which would also disappear from the NAV until their T2 bpc's would sell and get added to the pool. Most of this stems from using Eve-HQ's Prism utility.

Today I took a snapshot of my (TAUTX's) overall NAV. I subtracted public funds (6.25bil for shares, and 2.4bil for current bonds, plus 72mil for 3% ROI's on bonds). I was finally able to include all researched bpo's, and invented T2 bpc values, also.

TAUTX's current NAV is 23,538,873,805.34 (23.5bil).

When reporting NAV's each month, I subtract share values twice. This has to do with TAUTX's promised solvency, and pseudo- full reserve structure. The reported current NAV is 17,288,873,805.34 (17.3bil). I then take this reported NAV and divide it in half to determine how many bonds I can sell for the month. 8,644,436,902.67 (8.6bil) would mean that TAUTX can sustain 86 bonds at 100mil each with a promised ROI of 3%.

Now, the tricky part. And I would really appreciate some feedback from the community here:

How should I go about paying share holders for this wild increase in reported NAV (17.3bil from ~11bil is over a 6bil increase!)??? That's a 750mil dividend payment, a 12% return for share holders that may have or may not have already been paid for these assets acquired in previous months or sold in later months. If I pay for it outright I might end up paying for it again later on, and if some of these bpo's and bpc's disappear into research and invention jobs again, NAV will decrease and investors might not see a return at all in coming months. Would this be acceptable to you, my investors (paying for the true NAV now and possibly paying 0% in a later month should NAV decrease due to 'disappearing' bpc's/bpos)?

If you are an investor and wish to remain anonymous feel free to evemail me your response. I am in no way forcing you to reply publicly and reveal your investments with TAUTX.

I'm just not really sure what to do here.

EDIT: I could just go about business as normal, and every January 1st I could do a true NAV report like this one, and pay share holders as if January 1st reports are just a normal report (but following months might see 0% returns).
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#142 - 2015-01-22 10:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Myriad Blaze
I'd say it depends on how much effort you want to put into it.

Your problem is, that your bookkeeping is very flawed. If I read it correctly you pay out dividents based on raw NAV growth plus you don't include items with no immediate market sell value in your NAV which results in billions "magically" disappearing when you buy certain items and reapperaing when you sell them again later. Actually you can't even calculate your real profits that way, which is bad, especially considering that you want to run a "bank".

My advice is to use book values for your items. If you want to keep it simple you could use average book values for items of the same type (1 Machariel bought for 500M plus 1 Machariel bought for 480M results in 2 Machariels with a book value of 490M each). Fees and taxes need to be recorded seperately (for several reasons, transparency among them). That way you can calculate your correct profit/loss when you sell an item, no matter if you sell it via contract, direct trade or the market. Personally I also work with "write-off" for certain situations, which I record seperatly and which is later included in the total figures. You could use this, for example, to reduce the book value of an item if you believe that the book value does not match the market value anymore.
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
#143 - 2015-01-22 11:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Koniforous
Myriad Blaze wrote:
I'd say it depends on how much effort you want to put into it.

Your problem is, that your bookkeeping is very flawed. If I read it correctly you pay out dividents based on raw NAV growth plus you don't include items with no immediate market sell value in your NAV which results in billions "magically" disappearing when you buy certain items and reapperaing when you sell them again later. Actually you can't even calculate your real profits that way, which is bad, especially considering that you want to run a "bank".

My advice is to use book values for your items. If you want to keep it simple you could use average book values for items of the same type (1 Machariel bought for 500M plus 1 Machariel bought for 480M results in 2 Machariels with a book value of 490M each). Fees and taxes need to be recorded seperately (for several reasons, transparency among them). That way you can calculate your correct profit/loss when you sell an item, no matter if you sell it via contract, direct trade or the market. Personally I also work with "write-off" for certain situations, which I record seperatly and which is later included in the total figures. You could use this, for example, to reduce the book value of an item if you believe that the book value does not match the market value anymore.


I was saving BPO purchase prices, their research fees, and sale values. Any products purchased from pilots directly or on contract I also kept track of their profits to add it in manually when I was reporting Profit as well as NAV. I never paid much attention to their contributions to NAV, however, because I thought if NAV was always much less than the actual NAV TAUTX would be able to handle any runs or market losses, like a hidden safety net. The trouble is that I have now switched from reporting profit to simply reporting changes in NAV.

I suppose "I'd say it depends on how much effort you want to put into it." is the big factor here. I will now have to keep track of overall value of all items owned, their future possible sell values and any other NAV related details, to get a near perfect picture of my NAV each month to pay properly based on NAV growth.

"If I read it correctly you pay out dividents based on raw NAV growth plus you don't include items with no immediate market sell value in your NAV which results in billions "magically" disappearing when you buy certain items and reapperaing when you sell them again later. Actually you can't even calculate your real profits that way, which is bad, especially considering that you want to run a "bank"."

This type of NAV related (no longer profit related) dividend payment has just started, so it's a good idea I decided to do this now. I believe it is feasible to continue keeping track of asset value and asset future sale values to report a true NAV.

Thank you for the response, Myriad.

EDIT: I imagined this would be the course of action I chose, to now keep track of boo and bpc future sale values and to include them, with purchased industry supplies into monthly NAVs. My primary question here is how to go about paying investors for this NAV increase. I'm thinking I should pay investors now based on the new NAV, and keep detailed records of the overall actual NAV so that it remains constant and true month to month from now on.
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#144 - 2015-01-22 14:53:00 UTC
Koniforous wrote:
I suppose "I'd say it depends on how much effort you want to put into it." is the big factor here. I will now have to keep track of overall value of all items owned, their future possible sell values and any other NAV related details, to get a near perfect picture of my NAV each month to pay properly based on NAV growth.

You should keep track of all items you intend to trade anyway, but you don't need to keep track of future possible sell values. That would be coffee grounds reading. When you acquire an item you add this item to your assets and set the book value according to your buy price. Other relevant figures (mostly tax and fees) are recorded seperately (but ideally in the same row as the item itself). In case an item loses a lot of value you write it off (write-down to be more precise). With a write-down you book your loss in several (monthly) steps over time instead of destroying your P&L by taking a massive hit in one month. Remember, as long as you don't sell an item you have neither loss nor profit (in RL this would be slightly different, but mostly for reasons that don't apply in the game plus it would add a layer of complexity that's not worth the effort here, imho).

Also using different formats for different types of income is advisable. For example for PI you would need an accounting structure that takes into account the various ingrediens that go into producing high level materials. Also remember that the materials you harvest yourself are not "free". When I still did PI I sold harvested materials on paper to myself, if I didn't sell it on the market. That way you get the correct book value for harvested materials in order to calculate the profit margins for higher level materials (and from experience I can safely say that it's worth the effort, if you want to max profits). A seperate accounting structure should make it easier to keep track of your stuff, especially in cases were you use materials for different purposes (for example as PI ingredient, industry component or trade item).

Example: You harvest a certain material which you need to produce a tier 2 PI material. You sell it on paper to yourself which gives you the figures for the profit from harvesting and adds the materials to your trade assets. You then sell the tier 1 materials from your trade assets on paper to yourself to produce a tier 2 material, which gives you profit from trading the materials (this step is needed to determine if it's better to trade the item itself or to use it as an ingredient to produce something else - don't forget to include transport costs and production time, if the production facility could be used for something else) and which also gives you the base cost to produce the tier 2 material. Now you sell that item on paper to yourself before selling it again on paper to yourself to be included in your industry production line... you get the idea. Sounds complicated? Sure, but with a spreadsheet you can automate almost everything and this way you get the necessary information to optimize your production processes (when I switched from a vague production process to an optimized process I noticed a significant increase in profits... which was worth the effort for me - especially since I could copy & paste the structure to use it for other production processes as well).

Sorry, just noticed that I got carried away. Maybe my remarks are helpful someway, so I keep them in.
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
#145 - 2015-02-01 10:58:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Koniforous
NAV Report

  • Investment Account Liabilities (Shares)
  • 6250mil Currently
    6250mil Maximum

  • Bond Liabilities
  • 2400mil Currently
    3200mil Maximum

    72mil ROI Currently
    96mil ROI Maximum

  • Overall Liabilities
  • 8722mil Currently
    9546mil Maximum

  • NAV (After Current Liabilities)
  • ~12,660,667,799.89

  • NAV Change (Profit/Loss)
  • ~1,542,467,799.89▲

  • This month's IA return
  • 3.084936%


    I have taken advice from investors and from Myriad Blaze and calculated my assets (BPO's and BPC's) at their purchase price. This will eliminate the possible 0% returns. It has also caused my estimated NAV to be a lot lower than previously posted. This is probably the closest estimation of TAUTX's true NAV to date.

    I would also like to announce that NAV is now over 2 times the amount of current maximum shares in circulation and that I will be expanding shares by 25% (as allowed by TAUTX policies) on March 1st! All current share holders may now send me mail should they wish to request their 25% reserve allowance.
    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #146 - 2015-02-11 05:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Koniforous
    Just to be clear on how share expansions work:

    1562 new shares will be created.

    Share holders can reserve up to 25% of their current shares. You MUST evemail me stating how many shares you want (or that you want your maximum 25% allowance), and I must receive your isk BEFORE March 1st, 00:00 evetime.

    Share holders cannot reserve anymore than 25% of their current shares.

    If you want shares and you are:

    1. A share holder that wants more than his/her 25% allowance

    2. A member of the general public that wishes to purchase some of the new shares

    You MUST evemail me ON or AFTER 00:00 evetime March 1st, stating how many shares you want. I will then issue any remaining shares after reserve allowances to those that requested shares, in chronological order. Any evemails sent BEFORE March 1st 00:00 evetime will be considered invalid.

    If you simply send your isk to the TAUTX wallet without an evemail hoping to receive some shares, your funds will be returned. If your evemail request for shares is approved you MUST send the required isk to the TAUTX corp wallet BEFORE March 5th 00:00 evetime.

    The 5th of every month is an official TAUTX deadline.
    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #147 - 2015-02-23 18:30:15 UTC
    It is with great sadness I inform everyone that I will be temporarily shutting down TAUTX operations.

    My family was issued a 60day notice to move out earlier this month, and I will be focusing any extra time I have on finding us a new place, and making it a home for our children.

    The share expansion is postponed. The upcoming NAV report on march 1st will be the last for a while, so too will March 1st's dividend payment be the last. I will keep the corporation open and your shares valid at 1mil isk each. Bonds will mature at their preset date in march or closed early, for their full 3% roi. All bond and share sales will temporarily cease. If you wish to withdraw your funds, you can as always, request a withdrawal at anytime and it will be honored as soon as the funds are available.

    I am not sure when l will resume TAUTX operations, it could be 2 months, it could be 6 or even a year. But I intend to reopen deposits and bond sales. If you want to keep your shares so that you have them when I reopen that's acceptable, its entirely up to your own judgement if you believe this a good idea.

    I apologize for the short notice, the letter to move out was unexpected. I want to thank everyone from the deepest part of my pod for trusting me with your funds. Posting here for the first time on the forums, especially with the opening of a bank didn't go over well with everyone, but I am very pleased with how many of you from MD have given me the chance to prove what I promised. I hope to see you all again when I reopen TAUTX!

    I will as I have always done in the past be giving out a thank you bonus to all current share AND bond holders as a show of appreciation.
    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #148 - 2015-03-01 23:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Koniforous
    NAV Report

  • Investment Account Liabilities (Shares)
  • 6250mil Currently
    6250mil Maximum

  • Bond Liabilities
  • 3200mil Currently
    3200mil Maximum

    96mil ROI Currently
    96mil ROI Maximum

  • Overall Liabilities
  • 9546mil Currently
    9546mil Maximum

  • NAV (After Current Liabilities)
  • ~12,134,199,633.20

  • NAV Change (Profit/Loss)
  • ~526,468,166.69▼

  • This month's IA return
  • 0.00% (7% bonus return!)

    Slow month, lots of RL bull**** to deal with. I am paying out 7% to IA members and an additional 1% to current bond holders this month. Again, this is the last TAUTX dividend payment for at least a few months. Thank you very much to everyone that has trusted me with your isk over the last year, it has been great fun operating TAUTX while being responsible with other pilots' funds. I believe I have accomplished my primary goal of proving myself trust worthy and I am very satisfied with how things have progressed for TAUTX. I hope to be back soon once my family is all settled in!

    Bonds have been closed early. Funds are ready and available for all 6250 shares to be withdrawn should you wish to withdraw them. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT that you request a withdrawal first so that I can confirm your share values and set up the withdrawal. There is no transaction history for shares, this is the reason I have called them your receipt of deposit.
    Jeronica
    The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
    Deepwater Hooligans
    #149 - 2015-03-06 04:25:44 UTC
    I've received my share buyback isk with no issues!

    Best of luck to your future endeavors Koniforous!

    EVE-MOGUL.COM

    Trade Profit Tracking&Analytics

    Offering Sotiyo Services In

    New Caldari | Ashab

    IPOs & Investments

    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #150 - 2015-03-06 04:56:51 UTC
    Jeronica wrote:
    I've received my share buyback isk with no issues!

    Best of luck to your future endeavors Koniforous!

    Thanks Jeronica! I really didn't expect any clients to come forward. You guys are a dedicated bunch, but oh so quiet. Thanks for posting feedback ;)
    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #151 - 2015-03-31 17:49:57 UTC
    Quick update: Since the temporary closure TAUTX had 2 requested and fulfilled withdrawals. ~5bil still remains in the corporate wallet ready for shares to be redeemed. As part of my continued promise of responsible fund management, the isk remains in the wallet, and unused.

    We have moved into our new house, and should be all settled within the next couple months, after which I will reopen TAUTX!
    Eden Nergal
    Bank Of Nergal
    #152 - 2015-04-08 23:30:53 UTC
    Thank you Koniforous for the investment, I confirm that I received my investment within hours of requesting its return.

    Looking forward to when operations start again and will be happy to reinvest.
    Lando Antilles
    #153 - 2015-04-09 01:13:40 UTC
    Good work on the rep grind.

    Maybe you can restart your 'bank' in a few months, and you'll get a better response since you now have a proven track record.

    I'm sure you can raise even more next time.

    Sky's the limit.
    Priest Amarr
    Temple's Gate
    #154 - 2015-04-09 09:13:39 UTC
    Koniforous wrote:
    ::EDIT:: There have been numerous policy changes since the public release of TAUTX. All current policies can be found on the TAUTX webpage.



    First of all, I get it. You guys hate banks. And, omg, you love to heckle the Bank owners. Oh well, here it goes:

    I started this Bank to help my corp/alliance mates out and practice market techniques. Then I thought I'd open it publicly and started reading the Eve forums with the intent of actually posting something. For the first time. Ever. Then I became terrified of what I was reading, again and again, about you guys saying people have ruined their character's chances of future loan requests and of all of the skepticism and negative labeling. So, I abstained from posting.


    It's a bit late but here I'll add my two cents (pun intended) for you to understand what is the core problem of Eve banks.

    There was a time Eve was a great social experiment and there were banks that gave better Online Banking Service than the Real banks in those days. Some of them were honest establishments started with good intentions, they gave good service for a long time.

    And then what happened? Life happened. As much as people want to believe otherwise, this is just a game and nobody stays around forever. Your life changes. You get a new job, you get married, you get bankrupt, you get sick and you walk away. Understandable, but in case of the banks, when it comes to dealing with RL event bank owner always choose to walk away with the funds instead of staying around and sorting things out first.

    Some do it, because they think hey, "There is thousands of real $ sitting in my account. I need this money for RL, and won't be able to play Eve anyway so lets cash out and go on with life." Some do it, because they have to leave Eve urgent and returning all money to all account holders at once would take a good time , big effort.

    Whatever the reason is, life happens and the journey never ends well.

    I am not against banks. I think a bank that starts serving it's corp/alliance and organically grows from there has a place in Eve. If you start from there and remain around in 5 years we can talk again. None of us that patient, are we?

    Good luck
    Priest
    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #155 - 2015-04-09 17:24:22 UTC
    Lando Antilles wrote:
    Good work on the rep grind.

    Maybe you can restart your 'bank' in a few months, and you'll get a better response since you now have a proven track record.

    I'm sure you can raise even more next time.

    Sky's the limit.

    Well, TAUTX can only hold maximum public liabilities at 75% of my personal NAV. This NAV is published monthly, and since closure hasn't increased by much due to time constraints. With a recent ~1bil gank, I'm at roughly ~14bil NAV. Just about the same rate of income before the temporary closure. I would like my passive income to increase a little faster before reopening so that my ROI for account holders is comparable to other investments on MD.

    But you are correct about 1 thing: I do have a proven track record, and will continue proving it because for me, the role playing fun is in being dependable and trustworthy. 😏
    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #156 - 2015-04-09 17:32:16 UTC
    Priest Amarr wrote:
    Koniforous wrote:
    ::EDIT:: There have been numerous policy changes since the public release of TAUTX. All current policies can be found on the TAUTX webpage.



    First of all, I get it. You guys hate banks. And, omg, you love to heckle the Bank owners. Oh well, here it goes:

    I started this Bank to help my corp/alliance mates out and practice market techniques. Then I thought I'd open it publicly and started reading the Eve forums with the intent of actually posting something. For the first time. Ever. Then I became terrified of what I was reading, again and again, about you guys saying people have ruined their character's chances of future loan requests and of all of the skepticism and negative labeling. So, I abstained from posting.


    It's a bit late but here I'll add my two cents (pun intended) for you to understand what is the core problem of Eve banks.

    There was a time Eve was a great social experiment and there were banks that gave better Online Banking Service than the Real banks in those days. Some of them were honest establishments started with good intentions, they gave good service for a long time.

    And then what happened? Life happened. As much as people want to believe otherwise, this is just a game and nobody stays around forever. Your life changes. You get a new job, you get married, you get bankrupt, you get sick and you walk away. Understandable, but in case of the banks, when it comes to dealing with RL event bank owner always choose to walk away with the funds instead of staying around and sorting things out first.

    Some do it, because they think hey, "There is thousands of real $ sitting in my account. I need this money for RL, and won't be able to play Eve anyway so lets cash out and go on with life." Some do it, because they have to leave Eve urgent and returning all money to all account holders at once would take a good time , big effort.

    Whatever the reason is, life happens and the journey never ends well.

    I am not against banks. I think a bank that starts serving it's corp/alliance and organically grows from there has a place in Eve. If you start from there and remain around in 5 years we can talk again. None of us that patient, are we?

    Good luck
    Priest

    I do not believe that is a core problem with the bank, but rather a core problem with the bank owners/admins. I'll point out that TAUTX originally did start out to service the alliance I am in, and grew into a public entity.

    I'll also point out that RL has now gotten in the way at least once, forcing a temporary closure, and any requested withdrawals were returned. There is also almost 5bil just sitting in the corp wallet waking to be claimed by account holders should they also request any withdrawals. These funds are never used, they just sit and wait. I think that's pretty impressive and proves that the core problem is not banks, but bad management and bad managers.

    TAUTX has been around for more than 1 year already, and since I was considering getting a personal license plate on my truck "TAUTX", the probability that you will be able to invest in 4 years is too damn high.
    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #157 - 2015-04-15 12:14:28 UTC
    LIMITED REOPENING of TAUTX

    I will be reopening TAUTX at the end of this month, but on a limited schedule.

    I will start hosting lotteries this month, posting in the services and sell order forums. The first few of these will be nonprofit and used to further prove my reputation but to a larger base. I would like to do plex and isk jackpot styled lotteries.

    I will publish my NAV at the end of this month, just like before.

    On May 1st I will reopen TAUTX bond sales at no more then 50% of my published NAV. With satisfactory completion of bonds in June (fulfilling principals plus roi, plus good profits) I will fully reopen TAUTX in July.

    July 1st I will publish my NAV, and reopen shares at 50% of the reported NAV.

    My time is still very limited, however we are all moved in and I am able to update orders at least twice a day. This should be enough time to ensure favorable profits with 6-10bil in public funds. The slow ramp up will allow me to judge profitability.

    I look forward to reopening!
    Jeronica
    The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
    Deepwater Hooligans
    #158 - 2015-04-17 14:56:44 UTC
    Koniforous wrote:
    LIMITED REOPENING of TAUTX

    I will be reopening TAUTX at the end of this month, but on a limited schedule.

    I will start hosting lotteries this month, posting in the services and sell order forums. The first few of these will be nonprofit and used to further prove my reputation but to a larger base. I would like to do plex and isk jackpot styled lotteries.

    I will publish my NAV at the end of this month, just like before.

    On May 1st I will reopen TAUTX bond sales at no more then 50% of my published NAV. With satisfactory completion of bonds in June (fulfilling principals plus roi, plus good profits) I will fully reopen TAUTX in July.

    July 1st I will publish my NAV, and reopen shares at 50% of the reported NAV.

    My time is still very limited, however we are all moved in and I am able to update orders at least twice a day. This should be enough time to ensure favorable profits with 6-10bil in public funds. The slow ramp up will allow me to judge profitability.

    I look forward to reopening!


    Good to hear!

    I'll evemail you for details.

    EVE-MOGUL.COM

    Trade Profit Tracking&Analytics

    Offering Sotiyo Services In

    New Caldari | Ashab

    IPOs & Investments

    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #159 - 2015-04-17 17:37:31 UTC
    I have officially announced the opening of TAUTX 3rd party services.

    The thread can be found here.

    As always, I would appreciate pilots posting feedback (negative or positive) of their dealing with me and TAUTX to assist others with any questions they might have about me or TAUTX.

    Thank you!
    Koniforous
    Tauren Transit
    #160 - 2015-04-18 00:39:35 UTC
    I have officially announced the opening of my TAUTX: Weekly Lottery Services!

    The thread can be found here.

    As always, I would appreciate pilots posting feedback (negative or positive) of their dealing with me and TAUTX to assist others with any questions they might have about me or TAUTX.

    Thank you!