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Cloaking Overhaul
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SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#21 - 2014-02-17 18:32:59 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Ummmmm, let me think about it .......



NO!


That was a well articulated response! :O You must have thought about it a really long time!

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#22 - 2014-02-17 18:41:48 UTC
Yeah... this is a nerf cloaking thread.

What you want is a counter. Not a nerf.

Keep the mechanics of cloaking unchanged (though I like some of the skill ideas to improve movement speeds while cloaked... hmmmm black ops...). Add something that is a counter - something specific such as a ship dedicated to scanning down a cloaked ship - new T2 destroyers based on the new destroyer hulls.

It would have the ability to scan down cloaked vessels not within 30km of a gate or in warp. It would require dedicated probes for the task and its own skill set. At best it would place the destroyer between 20 and 10 km of the cloaked ship.

If anything were done to effect cloaking, this kind of counter would make the best sense without touching current cloaking mechanics.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#23 - 2014-02-17 18:48:23 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Yeah... this is a nerf cloaking thread.

What you want is a counter. Not a nerf.

Keep the mechanics of cloaking unchanged (though I like some of the skill ideas to improve movement speeds while cloaked... hmmmm black ops...). Add something that is a counter - something specific such as a ship dedicated to scanning down a cloaked ship - new T2 destroyers based on the new destroyer hulls.

It would have the ability to scan down cloaked vessels not within 30km of a gate or in warp. It would require dedicated probes for the task and its own skill set. At best it would place the destroyer between 20 and 10 km of the cloaked ship.

If anything were done to effect cloaking, this kind of counter would make the best sense without touching current cloaking mechanics.


haha I'm trying to change things from the cloaking pilots perspective. I don't care about people trying to decloak you or anything! I don't want a counter to cloaking! If you sit in a cloaked frigate 30km off the gate gathering intel you won't even notice a change!

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#24 - 2014-02-17 18:50:17 UTC
i read the disclaimer at the top then 4 lines down you contradict it so this idea is bad for all the reasons all the other nerf afk cloaking ideas are bad
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#25 - 2014-02-17 18:51:30 UTC
Gawain Edmond wrote:
i read the disclaimer at the top then 4 lines down you contradict it so this idea is bad for all the reasons all the other nerf afk cloaking ideas are bad


Maybe read a bit further?

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
Harlon Cordarii
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-02-17 19:42:34 UTC
I'm not a big fan of this. As someone who frequently uses a Buzzard to scout around to make sure my friends don't run into a giant wtf trap the very last thing on my mind is, "gee, cloaking sure is boring."

This feels like a huge nerf that wouldn't benefit me in a single way. A covert ops frigate has little need of any of these features.
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#27 - 2014-02-17 19:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: HTC NecoSino
SIrera Artrald wrote:
Cloaking as it is only serves to allow you to escape. The whole idea of stealth is to allow you to get the other guy when he doesn't expect it!


I get 95% of my solo (okay, duo) kills in 2 cloaky T3s (Check my killboard if you don't believe me).


SIrera Artrald wrote:
I really fail to see how this ruins your WH cloaks? Maybe you'd care enlighten me?


Imagine if you would...
2 hulks are mining a belt in a wormhole.
A hostile proteus decloaks and points both of them.
5 other ships of various cruiser hulls show up on dscan, in warp to the hulks as well.

6 friendly T3s decloak, point the proteus and arriving fleet as 2 friendly logi cruisers warp in from a connection and the gankers get ganked.

This.. This would not be possible (or much more difficult) if your change was introduced.
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#28 - 2014-02-17 20:16:43 UTC
Harlon Cordarii wrote:
I'm not a big fan of this. As someone who frequently uses a Buzzard to scout around to make sure my friends don't run into a giant wtf trap the very last thing on my mind is, "gee, cloaking sure is boring."

This feels like a huge nerf that wouldn't benefit me in a single way. A covert ops frigate has little need of any of these features.


perhaps a new cloak then that is an option to fit?

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#29 - 2014-02-17 20:20:30 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
SIrera Artrald wrote:
Cloaking as it is only serves to allow you to escape. The whole idea of stealth is to allow you to get the other guy when he doesn't expect it!


I get 95% of my solo (okay, duo) kills in 2 cloaky T3s (Check my killboard if you don't believe me).


SIrera Artrald wrote:
I really fail to see how this ruins your WH cloaks? Maybe you'd care enlighten me?


Imagine if you would...
2 hulks are mining a belt in a wormhole.
A hostile proteus decloaks and points both of them.
5 other ships of various cruiser hulls show up on dscan, in warp to the hulks as well.

6 friendly T3s decloak, point the proteus and arriving fleet as 2 friendly logi cruisers warp in from a connection and the gankers get ganked.

This.. This would not be possible (or much more difficult) if your change was introduced.


well sure it would be more difficult, but where on earth did you get the idea that stealth should come easy? it should be an active involved process to maintain a cloak in a combat situation, it will make piloting a cloaked ship more challenging but (hopefully) potentially much more rewarding.

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#30 - 2014-02-17 20:47:45 UTC
SIrera Artrald wrote:
HTC NecoSino wrote:
SIrera Artrald wrote:
Cloaking as it is only serves to allow you to escape. The whole idea of stealth is to allow you to get the other guy when he doesn't expect it!


I get 95% of my solo (okay, duo) kills in 2 cloaky T3s (Check my killboard if you don't believe me).


SIrera Artrald wrote:
I really fail to see how this ruins your WH cloaks? Maybe you'd care enlighten me?


Imagine if you would...
2 hulks are mining a belt in a wormhole.
A hostile proteus decloaks and points both of them.
5 other ships of various cruiser hulls show up on dscan, in warp to the hulks as well.

6 friendly T3s decloak, point the proteus and arriving fleet as 2 friendly logi cruisers warp in from a connection and the gankers get ganked.

This.. This would not be possible (or much more difficult) if your change was introduced.


well sure it would be more difficult, but where on earth did you get the idea that stealth should come easy? it should be an active involved process to maintain a cloak in a combat situation, it will make piloting a cloaked ship more challenging but (hopefully) potentially much more rewarding.


Only took two pages to finally get to the point, anti afk cloaking after all. Terrible plot twist seen from the opening credits.

Bob is displeased.

I'm right behind you
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#31 - 2014-02-17 20:53:10 UTC
Alundil wrote:
SIrera Artrald wrote:
HTC NecoSino wrote:
SIrera Artrald wrote:
Cloaking as it is only serves to allow you to escape. The whole idea of stealth is to allow you to get the other guy when he doesn't expect it!


I get 95% of my solo (okay, duo) kills in 2 cloaky T3s (Check my killboard if you don't believe me).


SIrera Artrald wrote:
I really fail to see how this ruins your WH cloaks? Maybe you'd care enlighten me?


Imagine if you would...
2 hulks are mining a belt in a wormhole.
A hostile proteus decloaks and points both of them.
5 other ships of various cruiser hulls show up on dscan, in warp to the hulks as well.

6 friendly T3s decloak, point the proteus and arriving fleet as 2 friendly logi cruisers warp in from a connection and the gankers get ganked.

This.. This would not be possible (or much more difficult) if your change was introduced.


well sure it would be more difficult, but where on earth did you get the idea that stealth should come easy? it should be an active involved process to maintain a cloak in a combat situation, it will make piloting a cloaked ship more challenging but (hopefully) potentially much more rewarding.


Only took two pages to finally get to the point, anti afk cloaking after all. Terrible plot twist seen from the opening credits.

Bob is displeased.


Haha you're twisting my words! if you read what I describe doesn't change afk cloaking at all just active cloaking to engage in PvP

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
colera deldios
#32 - 2014-02-17 21:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: colera deldios
No, cloacking is a valid method and unbroken mechanic. It's one of those things CCP did to perfection. It's also a conflict catalyst and superb method to put pressure on peoples finances. This is one of the tools smaller entities can actually use to harass bigger entities.

Cloacking is really as trivial as it can be. If you make the changes you propose you will simply destroy the mechanic.
The main reason people ***** about cloacking campers is because they don't have the balls to form up and counter what's behind that cloacky ship.

0.0 Is already a completely risk free environment for the residents. It's everything that it was not supposed to be.
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#33 - 2014-02-18 00:14:29 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
No, cloacking is a valid method and unbroken mechanic. It's one of those things CCP did to perfection. It's also a conflict catalyst and superb method to put pressure on peoples finances. This is one of the tools smaller entities can actually use to harass bigger entities.

Cloacking is really as trivial as it can be. If you make the changes you propose you will simply destroy the mechanic.
The main reason people ***** about cloacking campers is because they don't have the balls to form up and counter what's behind that cloacky ship.

0.0 Is already a completely risk free environment for the residents. It's everything that it was not supposed to be.


You think this change would make 0.0 safer for residents?

Cloaking works great I agree but with the blacks op rebalance coming up soon I thought it might support making the black ops viable in PvP (maybe even "solo"?) and that this change could add some more interest to playing any cloaking vessel. By adding modules that directly enhance cloaking it will also allow for some interesting fitting options for non cloaking specific ships.

This is just a way to translate the classic approach to stealth gameplay found in a lot of RPGs and such into EvE because right now cloaking is just overly simple and completely useless in PvP in almost every case. If I want to play in a cloaking ship, it should be viable to be used in a way that is unique to stealth ships and also works in most PvP without being overly powerful. That's what I was going for with this suggestion.

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#34 - 2014-02-18 01:24:51 UTC
SIrera Artrald wrote:
cloaking is just overly simple and completely useless in PvP in almost every case.


All you're doing is telling us that you don't know how to fly covert.
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#35 - 2014-02-18 01:34:06 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
SIrera Artrald wrote:
cloaking is just overly simple and completely useless in PvP in almost every case.


All you're doing is telling us that you don't know how to fly covert.


You mean blob stealth bombers? Fuuuuuun. . .

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#36 - 2014-02-18 01:35:32 UTC
SIrera Artrald wrote:
Gawain Edmond wrote:
i read the disclaimer at the top then 4 lines down you contradict it so this idea is bad for all the reasons all the other nerf afk cloaking ideas are bad


Maybe read a bit further?



so i read it all it's still a nerf afk cloaking as that what the idea does before any of the other bits you mentioned. Your idea would stop people sitting in a system cloaked and being unable to be found. If you got rid of the bit that made it so you could find cloaked ships then it wouldn't be a nerf afk cloaking and then i'd totally love this idea.
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#37 - 2014-02-18 01:45:17 UTC
Gawain Edmond wrote:
SIrera Artrald wrote:
Gawain Edmond wrote:
i read the disclaimer at the top then 4 lines down you contradict it so this idea is bad for all the reasons all the other nerf afk cloaking ideas are bad


Maybe read a bit further?



so i read it all it's still a nerf afk cloaking as that what the idea does before any of the other bits you mentioned. Your idea would stop people sitting in a system cloaked and being unable to be found. If you got rid of the bit that made it so you could find cloaked ships then it wouldn't be a nerf afk cloaking and then i'd totally love this idea.


I was trying to provide some balance to being able to activate modules. That's why I thought a system where the more you do the more likely you get caught doing it would work. We can just change it so If you are sitting there cloaked with no modules on and 20km or so from other ships you won't be detected?

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-02-18 02:32:37 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
SIrera Artrald wrote:
Cloaking as it is only serves to allow you to escape. The whole idea of stealth is to allow you to get the other guy when he doesn't expect it!


I get 95% of my solo (okay, duo) kills in 2 cloaky T3s (Check my killboard if you don't believe me).


SIrera Artrald wrote:
I really fail to see how this ruins your WH cloaks? Maybe you'd care enlighten me?


Imagine if you would...
2 hulks are mining a belt in a wormhole.
A hostile proteus decloaks and points both of them.
5 other ships of various cruiser hulls show up on dscan, in warp to the hulks as well.

6 friendly T3s decloak, point the proteus and arriving fleet as 2 friendly logi cruisers warp in from a connection and the gankers get ganked.

This.. This would not be possible (or much more difficult) if your change was introduced.

bahaha, yes. i remember once, some friends of mine in a C4 were baiting with a chimera.

i dont know hwo they did it, but they managed to sucker someone into bringing some horribad-deadspace fitted tengus to gank it (blaster-tengus of all things). he wasnt even really running the sites, he killed the battleships and was sitting there with 3 other chimeras cloaked on-grid, his chimera's mids were loaded up with warp-disruptors, so he scrammed the tengus and had his buddies decloak, it was a beautiful slaughter.

I think they finally quit wormholes 2-3 months ago, wonder if they self-destructed their carriers or if they are still sitting in wormholes somewhere without a pilot.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#39 - 2014-02-18 04:03:40 UTC
SIrera Artrald wrote:


haha I'm trying to change things from the cloaking pilots perspective. I don't care about people trying to decloak you or anything! I don't want a counter to cloaking! If you sit in a cloaked frigate 30km off the gate gathering intel you won't even notice a change!

Fair enough, but the coding you are thinking of having them add will overly complicate things. The more calculations the server has to perform, the more TiDi.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
SIrera Artrald
Titans Rising
#40 - 2014-02-18 05:05:27 UTC
Petrified wrote:
SIrera Artrald wrote:


haha I'm trying to change things from the cloaking pilots perspective. I don't care about people trying to decloak you or anything! I don't want a counter to cloaking! If you sit in a cloaked frigate 30km off the gate gathering intel you won't even notice a change!

Fair enough, but the coding you are thinking of having them add will overly complicate things. The more calculations the server has to perform, the more TiDi.


It is very complicated but not a lot more then the damage calculations of missiles for example. It could have an effect but not a drastic one unless a whole fleet is cloaked in the middle of a sov battle.

Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
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