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Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-02-21 20:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I agree, BS lack the agility to pull off the sort of dashing escape that smaller cov-ops ships do. On the other hand they dont get microjump capability either. I dont pretend to be an expert on gate crashing.

However, The current BLOPS cant use the cov-ops cloaks. Why should the Nestor be able to do more with cloaking than them? If the idea that losing jump capability would make up for gaining a cov-ops, what is the basis for that? Currently the Nestor can use the same cloak the BLOPS do, but without bonus and without jumping. I dont personally see the Nestor as a bad ship, and if it didnt cost an entire maternity wing of first borns I would likely fly it with some of my corp mates on occasion. However, it does not fit well with the other Sisters ships, and I am willing to aid in discussing the issues surrounding getting it that cloak.

I will have to take some time this weekend and compare the Nestor to a Sin, and maybe the Amarr BLOPS while I am at it to see how its other attributes compare. I suspect its tank will be significantly better than the BLOPS, and likely its a bit faster.


Arguing that a Nestor should receive BLOPS along with covert cloaking seems to me to be comparing apples with pairs.

Let's argue that BLOPS uses a special high tech thingie (technical term) to create blops bridges.

Let's also accept that the sisters figured out how to do covops cloaking (astero and stratios) with T1 tech.

I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that these inventions are separate and distinct. The sisters figured out the cloaky bit but not the bridging bit, but their cloak solution was so elegant that they were able to get a battleship to cloak in warp - provided they used sufficiently expensive materials and construction techniques that allowed the hull to be half the mass of a normal battleship...

... which is of course why CCP will be in a position to say "no" to a covops sisters carrier if they ever do give us a covops nestor (uh oh! did I just open a can of worms?)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Oblivion King
Doomheim
#142 - 2014-02-21 22:32:19 UTC
Adding a cov ops cloak to the nestor would be a dumb idea, the only reason I can think of CCP adding it is if they can't balance it at all and would be their last desperate measure.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-02-21 23:02:24 UTC
Oblivion King wrote:
Adding a cov ops cloak to the nestor would be a dumb idea, the only reason I can think of CCP adding it is if they can't balance it at all and would be their last desperate measure.


This is an example of an assertion made without foundation or definitions.

Please state exactly what you mean by "dumb".

Then please explain what facts, experiences and modelling of game mechanics led you to this position.

When you have done that, you stand a chance of winning people over to your viewpoint.

Note that I am not arguing against your position, I simply lack the information to understand it.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#144 - 2014-02-22 00:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi

I wanted to post because I appreciate that the discussion is mostly very constructive and that's always nice to see.

To respond to a few specific things:

Quote:
The history of this is that the dev team conceived the Nestor as a covert-capable ship in line with the other two sisters ships. They designed the hull with the ring for this reason and even wrote a ship description which referenced it (the one before the description that is currently on the Nestor, which was changed at the last minute).


This is false. The SOE line was originally conceived based on a few elements, none of which had to do with cloaks. The original idea actually existed before I got to CCP and the main goals at first were to combine lasers and drones for the most renewable weapon loadout possible so that long deployment would be easy and also to make a very flexible ship that would emulate the Gnosis due to its popularity but limited nature. As always we went through a lot of iteration and eventually arrived at the covert solution for the Astero and Stratios and felt good about that. The Nestor was a bit of a puzzle for awhile and eventually we settled on logistics as the main theme, which was an idea that showed up internally and in the community.

Quote:
When pressed for an explanation, the dev team stated that with a covert cloak the Nestor would be overpowered and that it would compete with BLOPS in the same niche.


This is partly true. There is a fuzzy power barrier here that we don't want to cross, but as this thread is illustrating it can be difficult to pin down where that line should be. BLOPS came up because we felt if we started pushing into the black ops role with the Nestor before we had a black ops rebalance done we may have to go back and re-consider the Nestor afterwards.

Quote:
I see no evidence for either position, so respectfully am looking to build support for them to be a little braver in their decision making, and return the Nestor to what it was clearly (to me) designed to be.


Again, it wasn't 'meant' to be a covert ship, and there is no shortage of bravery here, I assure you.

Quote:
To be clear, the idea of a covops RR battleship was not mine, it was the Dev Team's. I am simply asking that they go through with that design decision and make the Nestor a little more aspirational, since at the moment it's fairly clear that it's an undesirable ship with a very few niche (and in my view, contrived) roles.


We may need to make more changes to get it established as the aspirational ship that we want it to be, but I still think a lot of the problems here are related to cost. If the Nestor was 500mil I doubt this discussion would be as common. We'll see how the new drops coming soon affect price and if we still have this problem we can look at making more changes.

Thanks again for a productive thread
Rise


Thank you for getting back to us with a very constructive post.
The majority of the posters, expressing an interest, seem to believe that although the price is important, are more concerned that this ship is failing to excite or raise interest..

Partially the problem you have inherited is it seems to lack focus , and that makes it difficuilt to find a suitable role.

There is much about it that has great potential in wormhole space and possibly in the new expansions to come.

Logistics has value in this and the problem it has is with being unable to travel in a fleet, even a small one without, blowing it's cover by decloaking the rest of the fleet on landing.

It is like taking a loud drunken uncle out hunting, you will never see game or get pounced on by wolves.


A covert ops cloak is essential for a role in WH Space, if you wish it to have that role.

There is much concern with drones at the moment, and any ship that has the potential to operate drones effectively will have a lot of people rightly or wrongly very excited.

Possibly a good direction would be to limit bandwidth to 5 medium drones but to give LARGE bonuses to drone speed, reduced signature ,and hitpoints. Sufficient to engage and survive c5 and c6 sleepers. This could be achieved either in ship stats or by the ability to field Enhanced Sisters drones that can only be fielded by sisters ships that have suitable electronics.

Balance this by increasing laser damage and reduced cap use, to reach a suitable damage total.

Increase the range and bonuses of cap transfer and shield and armor repairers to allow mobile ships to stay within it's sphere of influence.

This ship can fit in with the overall balance of ships whilst still having a defined role and also have the abilities to be adopted in other metas, it does not need to lack individuality to do this. In fact it need individual abilities to excite and thence to thrive..

Please think on this, it is worth giving this ship the opportunity to be special, and will enhance the whole concept that ships can be fun.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#145 - 2014-02-22 00:55:23 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I agree, BS lack the agility to pull off the sort of dashing escape that smaller cov-ops ships do. On the other hand they dont get microjump capability either. I dont pretend to be an expert on gate crashing.

However, The current BLOPS cant use the cov-ops cloaks. Why should the Nestor be able to do more with cloaking than them? If the idea that losing jump capability would make up for gaining a cov-ops, what is the basis for that? Currently the Nestor can use the same cloak the BLOPS do, but without bonus and without jumping. I dont personally see the Nestor as a bad ship, and if it didnt cost an entire maternity wing of first borns I would likely fly it with some of my corp mates on occasion. However, it does not fit well with the other Sisters ships, and I am willing to aid in discussing the issues surrounding getting it that cloak.

I will have to take some time this weekend and compare the Nestor to a Sin, and maybe the Amarr BLOPS while I am at it to see how its other attributes compare. I suspect its tank will be significantly better than the BLOPS, and likely its a bit faster.


Arguing that a Nestor should receive BLOPS along with covert cloaking seems to me to be comparing apples with pairs.

Let's argue that BLOPS uses a special high tech thingie (technical term) to create blops bridges.

Let's also accept that the sisters figured out how to do covops cloaking (astero and stratios) with T1 tech.

I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that these inventions are separate and distinct. The sisters figured out the cloaky bit but not the bridging bit, but their cloak solution was so elegant that they were able to get a battleship to cloak in warp - provided they used sufficiently expensive materials and construction techniques that allowed the hull to be half the mass of a normal battleship...

... which is of course why CCP will be in a position to say "no" to a covops sisters carrier if they ever do give us a covops nestor (uh oh! did I just open a can of worms?)



I am not arguing lore. Your OP asks "If you do not agree, please provide reasoned argument backed with experimental data". Such data cannot exist, because there is no ship beyond cruiser with a Cov-ops cloak at this time. There has been much discussion over the uses and abuses of cloaking over the years, and the Devs seem happy with the current balance of cloaks at this time. I therefore reason that anything that increases cloaking ability from it's current level is to be considered over powered. If they had wanted the Nestor to have a Cov-ops cloak, they surely would have done so, it's not like it wasn't heavily suggested by the playerbase. The same has been requested for years for the BLOPS ships---and rather than give those ships Cov-ops cloaks they gave them some bonuses to regular cloaks and the ability to bridge.

So my question, purely for the sake of argument, is why should the Nestor be given superior cloaking ability to the BLOPS Battleships? Even assuming they wanted to continue the trend of making the sisters ships covert ops vessels, why would they not instead give it the same abilities the other BLOPS have? Not lore reasons, actual balance reasons.

I am not against the Cov-ops cloak, I am just playing devil's advocate to stimulate reasoned conversation on the topic. I suggest 2 lines of conversation---prove current cloaks are underpowered and deserving of a boost in ability by introducing a battleship with cov-ops cloak ability, or else give solid reasons why the Nestor in particular is deserving of yet another bonus, and why that bonus would not be the same cloak bonuses the BLOPS have instead of the more powerful Cov-ops cloak ability. This has nothing to do with bridges or jumping, though if we are to discuss a pirate BLOPS, it would make sense the Nestor get that ability before it got a better cloak.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#146 - 2014-02-22 01:20:31 UTC
Having just checked a few stats in game, the Nestor is a far more robust Battleship than either the Sin or Redeemer, the BLOPS of Gallente and Amarr. I don't think there is much argument to be made that it lacks either fitting or tank in comparison to make up for the increased stealth ability you want. It is most similar to the Sin, though with better stats across the board, and it's larger dronebay and improved CPU make it an arguably better drone ship. It has an identical slot layout (7/6/6) to the Sin, though I was wrong and the BLOPS are somewhat faster at 117 vs. 92. The Nestor is better in Target Range, Sensor Strength, and Capacitor as well.

Armor:
Sin--4968 Resist:EM 50, Exp 10, Kin 45, Thm 35
Redeemer--5312 Resist:EM 50, Exp 28, Kin 29, Thm 35
Nestor--9950 Resist:EM 50, Exp 10, Kin 35, Thm 35

CPU:
Sin-600
Redeemer-505
Nestor-680

Powergrid:
Sin-8800
Redeemer-17000
Nestor-11250


In order to make the Nestor balanced with any cloaking bonus at all, assuming we use the BLOPS as a template for where the balance should lie, you would have to practically cut the ship in half.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#147 - 2014-02-22 01:46:31 UTC
Without reading the long pages of stuff, I will recommend something that probably has already been recommended, maybe not.

1. The RR bonus is pretty useless and niche. It doesn't have the cap to do much rr unless you spider tank a few which still don't do lots because no cap bonus.

2. No use outside of high-sec, and not much use in a wormhole when outdone by dominix for in wormhole. In highsec, not any use because all the combat sites, it is blocked.

3. Remove RR and give it a role bonus of say, +300% velocity bonus when cloaked. This way, it moves normal when cloaked giving it the evasive usage, and ability to decloak and warp like a black ops can. Increase velocity.

Do that, and it would be fine for lowsec, and aware nullsec exploration...

Won't outdo blops. No covert cyno usage, and not as high of cloaked velocity.

FIXED AND CAN GO EXPLORE!

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#148 - 2014-02-22 04:26:15 UTC
1. The Nestor needs to be more affordable.
This isn't a slight, and I know the devs are implementing the BPC drops - but as it currently stands the Nestor is a "Spruce Goose".

2. It needs to have a clearly defined role.
It doesn't do anything well, and what it does - it does at several times the cost of comparable ships.
.....

Here's my suggestion for an overhaul: Make it a SoE attack Battlecruiser with the following:

• 450 CPU, 1200 Power Grid, 350 Calibration; 3 rig slots
• 6 low, 6 medium, 5 high; 4 turret hardpoints
• 500 m3 drone capacity, 125 Mbit/sec drone bandwidth
• 12,500,000 kg mass

• 625m3 cargo capacity, 0.5x inertia, 175 m/sec velocity
• Scan resolution 225mm, Signature Radius 185m
• 3500 HP structure, 4000 HP armor, 2000 HP shield
• Magnetometric 22 points, Warp speed 3.5 AU/s

• Gallente Battlecruiser bonuses: 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
• Amarr Battlecruiser bonus: 4% bonus to all armor resistances
• Role Bonus: 95% reduction in Large Laser turret powergrid requirement, 50% reduction in Large Laser Turret CPU requirement and 50% reduction in Large Laser Turret activation cost
• Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device
• Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 15 seconds

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#149 - 2014-02-22 05:09:36 UTC
enough with the BC bullshit man, it breaks the line of "pirate" faction ships, it has to be a BS......unless you want to add battlecruisers for the other double racial factions then it doesnt have a base for that change.....
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#150 - 2014-02-22 06:12:53 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:
enough with the BC bullshit man, it breaks the line of "pirate" faction ships, it has to be a BS......unless you want to add battlecruisers for the other double racial factions then it doesnt have a base for that change.....

Blah, blah, blah...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#151 - 2014-02-22 06:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Silivar Karkun wrote:
enough with the BC bullshit man, it breaks the line of "pirate" faction ships, it has to be a BS......unless you want to add battlecruisers for the other double racial factions then it doesnt have a base for that change.....



Agreed. It is a ship I have been playing with. For what it should be doing, it is nice. Drones and pewpewpew mega pulse lasers. MJD, is fine. Here is my fit stuff.

Mainly, I have 4 megas. Not enough pg to effectively fit 5. Want tachs, get used to 3. I am fine with that. Useful if you want a salvager I guess, or run one DLA....

Other highs, I have 3 left now. I fit two DLA's for 100km effective damage range. Perfect for mjd tactical fit. And I wish I could use third for cloak effectively.

Mids, two omnis, a drone navi, codebreak and analyser if desired... Microjump drive, or microwarp if running a garde 70km pulse setup.

Lows, typical armor tank.

With it's agility, it does not need a covert cloak. Like any other battleship, you don't run it solo. For roleplay, scout with Astero and Stratios. The cloaked velocity bonus would make it perfectly safe to fly in low, and maybe buff it's warp speed.

Will extrapolate on this. Years back, I ran an armageddon into low to do combat sites. I got around fine with pre-planning. But it was still a pain in the ass. The RR doesn't do anything for the ship. Replace them with role bonus to give it similar to a blops.

Without covert cynos, the Blops have their safe role. With the additional scanny bits to the Stratios, it would make it a lower skillpoint requirement battleship to the T2 versions... just like all other faction battleships... I don't see why people need to make it so tough. If nestor is at warp speed before decloak, it can warp away. Have a scout, it can move about just fine. Why does everybody want to make it so hard?

Edit: Cost. Okay, price breakdown cause noticed chip focus. 1 nestor =30 soe launchers by my math. 40*35m = 1b 400m. Add 150m buy cost, and 150m materials, lowest would be 1b 700m before unprofitable. Essentially chips are to make it so nobody gets the SoE Blueprints? Well, I guess it is 200k lp cheaper from sanctuary.... That is what? 14 *35m= 490m. Still more expensive. So my guess is all faction bs is entirely exploration then? Why even have them lp store?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#152 - 2014-02-22 08:48:02 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Quote:


With it's agility, it does not need a covert cloak. Like any other battleship, you don't run it solo. For roleplay, scout with Astero and Stratios. The cloaked velocity bonus would make it perfectly safe to fly in low, and maybe buff it's warp speed.


Unfortunately your two statements illustrate the problem that exists with the nestor.

You are correct in the idea that you don't run battleships like this solo.

Taking one situation as an example, you are travelling down a c3> c4 > c3 chain to get to a system that has a good number of combat sites.

The c4 has an occupied and awake pos with some serious firepower piloted within the shields.With the holes out of dscan range
Your fleet warps to a safe to bypass a possible bubble, and your nestor flies across the system visible all the way and lands with you decloaking the entire fleet.

You arrive in the c3 and leaving a scout on the hole, start running sites with the nestor fighting and providing support.doing great!

Then 10 T3 and 3 guardians come through the c4/c3 hole, because you screamed here we are gank us! By having your clear warping nestor in the fleet.

Well that worked well!


There's more than one reason we DO NOT choose to use battleships in wormholes if we can avoid it. The nestor could have solved that.

This is just one scenario that illustrates why the ability to warp cloaked and stay cloaked is so important for the Nestor, it is not a nice to have item, it literally is the decision to have it in your fleet or not.Done right the nestor will bring great benefit, if not? Why bother?

Meh.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#153 - 2014-02-22 10:08:55 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
[quote]

Your fleet warps to a safe to bypass a possible bubble, and your nestor flies across the system visible all the way and lands with you decloaking the entire fleet.

You arrive in the c3 and leaving a scout on the hole, start running sites with the nestor fighting and providing support.doing great!

Then 10 T3 and 3 guardians come through the c4/c3 hole, because you screamed here we are gank us! By having your clear warping nestor in the fleet.

Well that worked well!


There's more than one reason we DO NOT choose to use battleships in wormholes if we can avoid it. The nestor could have solved that.



Part of eve risk and reward. I see nothing causing an issue with what you posted. The decloak, well that is your nestor pilot fault. shoulda warped to a different range.

Running sites, you aren't cloaked anyways, don't see how that makes a difference.

Need to hide when being scanned out? 2000km safespot warping to site. They will never get ya if d-scanner is on the ball.

Full cloak warpy battleship? Is a case of power creep. Covert ops cloak takes out a ton of risks. Black ops or any bs works fine for what you described, just need practice and different tactics. Also why I said buff warp speed. To warp and out again much faster. I honestly don't see how a covert cloakie would make a difference outside of doing the crossing entire system to hit a site. Let them come screaming, you are out and cloaked before they can get you, let them be bored and leave. No different than any other nullsec op.

I can see where you are coming from, but I just see it as a bad replacement for being in a hurry/not cautious.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#154 - 2014-02-22 10:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Markus Reese wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
[quote]

Your fleet warps to a safe to bypass a possible bubble, and your nestor flies across the system visible all the way and lands with you decloaking the entire fleet.

You arrive in the c3 and leaving a scout on the hole, start running sites with the nestor fighting and providing support.doing great!

Then 10 T3 and 3 guardians come through the c4/c3 hole, because you screamed here we are gank us! By having your clear warping nestor in the fleet.

Well that worked well!


There's more than one reason we DO NOT choose to use battleships in wormholes if we can avoid it. The nestor could have solved that.



Part of eve risk and reward. I see nothing causing an issue with what you posted. The decloak, well that is your nestor pilot fault. shoulda warped to a different range.

Running sites, you aren't cloaked anyways, don't see how that makes a difference.

Need to hide when being scanned out? 2000km safespot warping to site. They will never get ya if d-scanner is on the ball.

Full cloak warpy battleship? Is a case of power creep. Covert ops cloak takes out a ton of risks. Black ops or any bs works fine for what you described, just need practice and different tactics. Also why I said buff warp speed. To warp and out again much faster. I honestly don't see how a covert cloakie would make a difference outside of doing the crossing entire system to hit a site. Let them come screaming, you are out and cloaked before they can get you, let them be bored and leave. No different than any other nullsec op.

I can see where you are coming from, but I just see it as a bad replacement for being in a hurry/not cautious.

There's so many things wrong with this I don't know where to start .Possibly you didn't understand the scenario as you may not be familiar with wormhole life. The example chosen was by necessity simplistic to enable a wider group to understand,
But here goes.
1. Fleet warp does not work that way. But that is the least of the issues.

2. Wormholes are not nullsec, you get ganked there's not an infinite universe to escape to and no ability to call in a hotdrop.

3. If people are not watching dscan they are bad at eve and bad at wormholes. Remember no local, no intel without dscan.

And you think driving a large white whale slowly across their home system,to get to the next system, screaming I am here in D scan is a Good idea???

4. Wormholers not having the patience to wait you out? Don't make me laugh.

5 risk reward does not equal choosing to suicide your fleet to bring an UNSUITABLE ship.

6. Nestor is currently unsuitable, please read a few of the posts to see how and why and solutions to your concerns.

7. Wormholers are not reckless or careless , they are cautious, careful, patient grizzly killbears. We pick ships appropriate for the Job, This isn't at the moment, but it is so close and with the right abilities it could be. Adding a covert ops cloak is not adding power, it is fixing a fatal flaw.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#155 - 2014-02-22 12:02:43 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

4. Wormholers not having the patience to wait you out? Don't make me laugh.


Confirming we log whole fleets on your static to go pvp in nullsec with other alts in the meantime.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#156 - 2014-02-22 14:18:35 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Quote:


With it's agility, it does not need a covert cloak. Like any other battleship, you don't run it solo. For roleplay, scout with Astero and Stratios. The cloaked velocity bonus would make it perfectly safe to fly in low, and maybe buff it's warp speed.


Unfortunately your two statements illustrate the problem that exists with the nestor.

You are correct in the idea that you don't run battleships like this solo.

Taking one situation as an example, you are travelling down a c3> c4 > c3 chain to get to a system that has a good number of combat sites.

The c4 has an occupied and awake pos with some serious firepower piloted within the shields.With the holes out of dscan range
Your fleet warps to a safe to bypass a possible bubble, and your nestor flies across the system visible all the way and lands with you decloaking the entire fleet.

You arrive in the c3 and leaving a scout on the hole, start running sites with the nestor fighting and providing support.doing great!

Then 10 T3 and 3 guardians come through the c4/c3 hole, because you screamed here we are gank us! By having your clear warping nestor in the fleet.

Well that worked well!


There's more than one reason we DO NOT choose to use battleships in wormholes if we can avoid it. The nestor could have solved that.

This is just one scenario that illustrates why the ability to warp cloaked and stay cloaked is so important for the Nestor, it is not a nice to have item, it literally is the decision to have it in your fleet or not.Done right the nestor will bring great benefit, if not? Why bother?

Meh.



And with this, we are back to the "reasoning" that a Cov-ops cloak should be added simply because some people want it. No further reasoning except that it would allow options not currently available, with no argument as to why a more powerful cloak should be allowed on a battleship than is currently available.

Simply making "IwannaIwanna" noises at CCP won't get the job done. You are going to have to demonstrate how this will be balanced, if not actually a good idea.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#157 - 2014-02-22 15:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Edit: duplicates my previous post. Removed

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#158 - 2014-02-22 16:53:11 UTC
I did justify the position. I am also not against it.

I understand *why* you want it. What the point of the thread was supposed to be about was how to get it. CCP obviously feels it would be unbalanced--- its not like it wasn't suggested or considered when they were making the ship in the first place. In order to bring forward an argument that it would not be unbalanced, or to find a way to balance it, we must first examine why it is considered unbalanced now, or bring forward an argument in which the ship comes up short in comparison to other existing ships that would validate the position that it needs better cloaking ability than any other battleship before it. Cost is not a balancing factor, and they are committed to brining down the price, so arguments of it's too expensive have been heard and are being rectified.

Simply making noise about how you could do so much more with it if only you got your way is not the way to proceed. It only highlights any potential for abuse. I personally could not care any less why and how wormhole, low sec and null sec people shoot eachother. I am not a fan of EVE's PvP focus and binary predator/victim mentality. I have answered the OP's request for a reasoned argument of why it would be considered overpowered, and brought to light the only data available to support a claim one way or another.

Current BLOPS set the bar of balance on cloaked battleships. Changes have been requested for years, cloaking itself has been under a microscope forever with many proponents for and against. The debate on the power of cloaks has been long and impassioned with many cries on all sides for changes, with CCP appearing satisfied with the current state of affairs. Logically, if the current state is considered balanced, then any increase in ability is overpowered. I don't think there is an argument to be found that states cloaking is underpowered, but if you have one I'm happy to hear and even discuss it.

The Nestor in it's current state is a fine battleship. If you didn't stick a single laser on it the drones alone put out plenty of DPS. It does not lack in tank, and is generally average or above average in it's other stats. It has a decent and versatile slot layout, though for an armor ship it could use the extra low better than the extra high. Honestly if not for it's price it's exactly how I would have wanted the Dominix to turn out before they slapped the range/tracking bonus on that hull and gave the AI a dark hunger for drones---a rep bonused drone ship seems great as the backbone of a PVE fleet. I honestly see no area where the ship truly lacks in comparison to other battleships, except it's powergrid is low if you want to fill it with both lasers and local tank.

So, beyond "Iwanna", where does this ship need a Cov-ops cloak? Bear in mind you are jumping right over the option other cloaking battleships have, which are bonuses to regular cloaks, and are asking for better cloaking ability than any other cloaking battleship in the game---and that on a ship with at least double the tank, easily equal or better DPS, and better fitting.

If you cannot find a good argument for the Nestor so completely failing as a battleship as to be objectively worse than a BLOPS at battleshiping, then how about an argument for the current state of cloaks being underpowered as to make it reasonable that a much more powerful ship be given a better cloak than current options?

That is what is needed here, either a reasoned argument for the Nestor being weak in comparison to other battleships, or a reasoned argument to change the balance point of cloaking itself. What is not needed is a list of all the wonderful ways a cov-ops cloak on the Nestor would make wormhole dwellers the happiest people in EVE.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-02-22 17:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
I think you put forward a good argument. I will dwell on the subject over dinner and come back with a logical argument as you request. Part of the pro argument has already been stated, as the reasons why it's a good idea from the point of view of the potential users of the ship - you are correct to point out that we must consider how it will fare against other types of fleets, and how those fleets will fare against it.

This is a wide subject. If we limit the argument to w-space (the ship's stated focus) then the logical opponent is a semi-covert T3 fleet and it's a fairly easy comparison.

Unfortunately of course, there are other arenas to consider. lowsec, hisec wars and nullsec. Thus the list of opposing fleet types is legion. This could take some thought.

/MC

EDIT: had a few more beers than intended. This will have to wait. :)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
LightMonk
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2014-02-22 22:50:21 UTC
I would like to see that the Nestor gets a Bonus to Cap Transfer so it can be used in a group of RR-Nestors more efficently. :)