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Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#81 - 2014-02-18 14:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Centurax wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Centurax wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Because battleships are balanced around having high dps and high ehp, but not being able to easily choose fights.


Why is being able to choose a fight with a battleship a bad thing?


Because being good at everything is called being overpowered.

Its like asking why interceptors cant do 800 dps. Battleships are balanced around poor mobility. Covops cloak effectively gives incredible mobility to ships that can fit it.



Well an interceptor with 800 dps is pointless that we can agree on, but this isn't the case of making a battleship overpowered, given CCPs design elements for a covert ops ship a Covert ops battleship will be fast, lightly armed (maybe only capable of doing 800 to 1000 dps) and have a poor tank, so a glass cannon with a cloak. It isn't like you would necessary have fleets of covert ops battleships attacking 0.0 systems because it isn't cost effective when you can have a T1 ship do the same job probably better, but you would use them to strike high risk and well protected targets. Covert ops warships should probably be treated as the Cavalry of the Eve world, fast lightly armed ships that can apply dps and then get out, the stealth bomber is the best example of that, it would be good to have similar battlecruiser or battleship sized versions with different roles. However in the case of the Nestor it is performing a different role in which a covert ops cloak would make it firstly more desirable and secondly more use able.


If thats what you want, just take a post-it note, write battleship on it, and whenever you look at the stratios put the post-it over the descrption.

Also, of course you would have fleets of covops battleships attacking systems. You would use them to bridge in under cyno jammers and kill the cyno jammer. Also hunting ratters in cyno jammed system.

I am also very confused when you claim stealth bombers are fast. Stealth bombers are slower than many cruisers. They are among the slowest frigates, even slower than caldari afs.
Centurax
CSR Engineering Solutions
Citizen's Star Republic
#82 - 2014-02-18 15:01:40 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
If thats what you want, just take a post-it note, write battleship on it, and whenever you look at the stratios put the post-it over the descrption.


That was an example of how CCP would have to treat them because some will view anything else as overpowered. I personally think this Overpowered stuff is a load of crap and I would see them be much more powerful than that, and the same goes for a whole variety of ship classes.

No ship in Eve is even closed to what I would call Overpowered, and if someone should ever find a good argument for why one is then instead of making it worse like the Drake (just an example I think everyone might be familiar with of there have been many others), why not try brining the other ships up to that ships level for once.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#83 - 2014-02-18 15:06:31 UTC
Centurax wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
If thats what you want, just take a post-it note, write battleship on it, and whenever you look at the stratios put the post-it over the descrption.


That was an example of how CCP would have to treat them because some will view anything else as overpowered. I personally think this Overpowered stuff is a load of crap and I would see them be much more powerful than that, and the same goes for a whole variety of ship classes.

No ship in Eve is even closed to what I would call Overpowered, and if someone should ever find a good argument for why one is then instead of making it worse like the Drake (just an example I think everyone might be familiar with of there have been many others), why not try brining the other ships up to that ships level for once.


You want a ship that:
1) Does 800-1000 dps
2) Has a poor tank
3) Has covops cloak
4) Is "fast"

The stratios can be fit to do all of this.
Centurax
CSR Engineering Solutions
Citizen's Star Republic
#84 - 2014-02-18 15:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Centurax
Michael Harari wrote:


You want a ship that:
1) Does 800-1000 dps
2) Has a poor tank
3) Has covops cloak
4) Is "fast"

The stratios can be fit to do all of this.


Fine the Stratios can do that maybe not the DPS best i have seen is around 700. But what if i am not satisfied with the Stratios as a platform, what if i want more damage and better tank maybe something like this:
1) 1200 - 1500+ dps
2) Has a minimum of 150k EHP with tank
3) Has a covert ops
4) Speed isn't really an issue, but high warp speeds would be a plus

edit: the specs above are for a general covert ops ship not the Nestor

Back to the main point of this thread so the Nestor would be better with a cov ops cloak and that is the point here that is an exploration and logistics vessel, would you be less scared by a ship like that if it has no turret slots and only used drones for damage? Or better yet if it were to be a Covert Ops ship how would you change it so it wasn't "OVERPOWERED"?
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#85 - 2014-02-18 15:21:21 UTC
I wanted to mention that the OP has really done a good job of illustrating a productive way to address game points in a way that makes it possible to engage with CCP. He didn't get want he wanted right away, but certainly laid a foundation, or at least added to the ability to keep CCP engaged with the players so that the game is more successful.

Keep it up, Mournful, you won't win 100%, but you'll win a lot more and the victories will be those that really count for good.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#86 - 2014-02-18 15:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Centurax wrote:
[

Back to the main point of this thread so the Nestor would be better with a cov ops cloak


I cant really name a ship that wouldnt be better with more bonuses.

And yes, your specifications are overpowered. You want a ship with high dps, even for a battleship, high tank, even for a battleship, logistics capabilities and the fight dictation power of a covops cloak.
Centurax
CSR Engineering Solutions
Citizen's Star Republic
#87 - 2014-02-18 15:34:01 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Centurax wrote:
[

Back to the main point of this thread so the Nestor would be better with a cov ops cloak


I cant really name a ship that wouldnt be better with more bonuses.

And yes, your specifications are overpowered. You want a ship with high dps, even for a battleship, high tank, even for a battleship, logistics capabilities and the fight dictation power of a covops cloak.



The specs above were general applied to a general covert ops battleships apologies for the lack of clarity.

To clarify this is how I would set up a Nestor specifically:
1) Keep the logistics and exploration and drones
2) remove the 50% range bonus and give it a 100% damage bonus and reduce the turrets to 4.
3) Current tank is ok and I can live with that think I had it around 100K EHP
4) Add Covert Ops Cloak

This set-up should have the damage of a Navy Armageddon, with the options to do logistics, exploration and most imprtantly cloak.

How would you change this to be less overpowered in you opinion?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#88 - 2014-02-18 15:34:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We may need to make more changes to get it established as the aspirational ship that we want it to be, but I still think a lot of the problems here are related to cost. If the Nestor was 500mil I doubt this discussion would be as common. We'll see how the new drops coming soon affect price and if we still have this problem we can look at making more changes. Thanks again for a productive thread Rise
Honestly just drop the drone damage bonus and lazor bonus and hacking stuff and make into a full RR boat with bridging abilites... make it thier version of blops/logi boat

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#89 - 2014-02-18 15:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Centurax wrote:

How would you change this to be less overpowered in you opinion?



Role Bonuses:
Can fit covert ops cloak
Cannot warp while cloaked
300% penalty to sensor recalibration time
75% penalty to cloaked velocity
Cannot use black ops bridge
Centurax
CSR Engineering Solutions
Citizen's Star Republic
#90 - 2014-02-18 15:41:21 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Centurax wrote:

How would you change this to be less overpowered in you opinion?



Role Bonuses:
Can fit covert ops cloak
Cannot warp while cloaked
300% penalty to sensor recalibration time
75% penalty to cloaked velocity
Cannot use black ops bridge


So in other words turn a covertops cloak into a prototype cloak, very constructive argument.

Nestor is too big to use a covertops bridge anyway so that is pointless, cant even jump a blackops battleship on one of those, that is why they have jump drives.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#91 - 2014-02-18 15:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Centurax wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Centurax wrote:

How would you change this to be less overpowered in you opinion?



Role Bonuses:
Can fit covert ops cloak
Cannot warp while cloaked
300% penalty to sensor recalibration time
75% penalty to cloaked velocity
Cannot use black ops bridge


So in other words turn a covertops cloak into a prototype cloak, very constructive argument.

Nestor is too big to use a covertops bridge anyway so that is pointless, cant even jump a blackops battleship on one of those, that is why they have jump drives.


Thats an improved cloak, and it leaves the scan res penalty off.

And yes you can bridge battleships. People occasionally do this to be able to double jump very quickly.


Alternatively, jack the price up to ~ 100 billion, like the only other covops logi.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2014-02-18 15:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Rise wrote:

We may need to make more changes to get it established as the aspirational ship that we want it to be, but I still think a lot of the problems here are related to cost. If the Nestor was 500mil I doubt this discussion would be as common. We'll see how the new drops coming soon affect price and if we still have this problem we can look at making more changes.


I agree that if the price was lower, the ship would be more appealing but on the other hand, if it had a covert-ops cloak, it would justify the current price.

To my knowledge, you still haven't said why you feel a covert Nestor would be OP. Don't forget that we are talking about a BS hull that are inherently slow moving and slow to lock.

The best we can hope for is that the price is reduced to where large alliances can afford to implement a RR Nestor sentry doctrine (sound familiar?) and personally, i don't think we need anymore of that in game.

At the end of the day Rise, lots of people think the ship is unfit for purpose or poorly designed and reducing the price doesn't change that fact.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Centurax
CSR Engineering Solutions
Citizen's Star Republic
#93 - 2014-02-18 15:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Centurax
Michael Harari wrote:
Thats an improved cloak, and it leaves the scan res penalty off.

And yes you can bridge battleships. People occasionally do this to be able to double jump very quickly.


Well fine you can keep that cant use jump bridges thing as that inst all that important to this argument.

But the ability to fit a covert ops cloak means you should have the benefits, such as begin able to warp, speed under cloak isn't overly important but 75% reduction is too much and a 300% sensor recalibration makes it useless, so I will reject those completely as even being a sensible suggestion.

The only other covert ops logi is only that much thanks to the limited number available not because of its value, and i doubt its build price would be that much different to the Basilisk.

The thing is I really want to find a solution to this but I know we will probably never agree as we have 2 completely different view points on this issue, and there is only so much you can do to a cloaking device with penalties. I still feel that if there were ways to counter cloaks this would not be so much an issue and adding a wider variety of covert ops ships to the game would be possible.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2014-02-18 16:01:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi

I wanted to post because I appreciate that the discussion is mostly very constructive and that's always nice to see.

To respond to a few specific things:

Quote:
The history of this is that the dev team conceived the Nestor as a covert-capable ship in line with the other two sisters ships. They designed the hull with the ring for this reason and even wrote a ship description which referenced it (the one before the description that is currently on the Nestor, which was changed at the last minute).


This is false. The SOE line was originally conceived based on a few elements, none of which had to do with cloaks. The original idea actually existed before I got to CCP and the main goals at first were to combine lasers and drones for the most renewable weapon loadout possible so that long deployment would be easy and also to make a very flexible ship that would emulate the Gnosis due to its popularity but limited nature. As always we went through a lot of iteration and eventually arrived at the covert solution for the Astero and Stratios and felt good about that. The Nestor was a bit of a puzzle for awhile and eventually we settled on logistics as the main theme, which was an idea that showed up internally and in the community.

Quote:
When pressed for an explanation, the dev team stated that with a covert cloak the Nestor would be overpowered and that it would compete with BLOPS in the same niche.


This is partly true. There is a fuzzy power barrier here that we don't want to cross, but as this thread is illustrating it can be difficult to pin down where that line should be. BLOPS came up because we felt if we started pushing into the black ops role with the Nestor before we had a black ops rebalance done we may have to go back and re-consider the Nestor afterwards.

Quote:
I see no evidence for either position, so respectfully am looking to build support for them to be a little braver in their decision making, and return the Nestor to what it was clearly (to me) designed to be.


Again, it wasn't 'meant' to be a covert ship, and there is no shortage of bravery here, I assure you.

Quote:
To be clear, the idea of a covops RR battleship was not mine, it was the Dev Team's. I am simply asking that they go through with that design decision and make the Nestor a little more aspirational, since at the moment it's fairly clear that it's an undesirable ship with a very few niche (and in my view, contrived) roles.


We may need to make more changes to get it established as the aspirational ship that we want it to be, but I still think a lot of the problems here are related to cost. If the Nestor was 500mil I doubt this discussion would be as common. We'll see how the new drops coming soon affect price and if we still have this problem we can look at making more changes.

Thanks again for a productive thread
Rise


Many thanks for your input Rise. It appears I was mistaken about the original intent. This leaves something of a mystery surrounding the ring structure, but there we are.

For now as far as I am concerned, this thread is done. I have a definitive answer from a Dev and the change will not happen in the next iteration.

No doubt your team (and certainly I) will monitor the Nestor's fortunes post-drone-drops. If it still proves to be uninspiring at 500 million, I'll return to the theme in a new thread.

Thanks everyone for participating.

ISD people, please feel free to lock the thread.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-02-18 16:04:01 UTC
Joia Crenca wrote:
I wanted to mention that the OP has really done a good job of illustrating a productive way to address game points in a way that makes it possible to engage with CCP. He didn't get want he wanted right away, but certainly laid a foundation, or at least added to the ability to keep CCP engaged with the players so that the game is more successful.

Keep it up, Mournful, you won't win 100%, but you'll win a lot more and the victories will be those that really count for good.


Awww x

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Centurax
CSR Engineering Solutions
Citizen's Star Republic
#96 - 2014-02-18 16:08:32 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Many thanks for your input Rise. It appears I was mistaken about the original intent. This leaves something of a mystery surrounding the ring structure, but there we are.

For now as far as I am concerned, this thread is done. I have a definitive answer from a Dev and the change will not happen in the next iteration.

No doubt your team (and certainly I) will monitor the Nestor's fortunes post-drone-drops. If it still proves to be uninspiring at 500 million, I'll return to the theme in a new thread.

Thanks everyone for participating.

ISD people, please feel free to lock the thread.




Don't give up, the squeaky wheel and all that Lol.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2014-02-18 16:10:37 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Centurax wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Because battleships are balanced around having high dps and high ehp, but not being able to easily choose fights.


Why is being able to choose a fight with a battleship a bad thing?


Because being good at everything is called being overpowered.

Its like asking why interceptors cant do 800 dps. Battleships are balanced around poor mobility. Covops cloak effectively gives incredible mobility to ships that can fit it.


But in fairness, we already have ships that do almost as much DPS with a covops cloak, tank just as much and have more EHP and more maneuverability - the proteus.

I would say that battleships are at a serious disadvantage with (say) a HAC or T3 in anything other than a long range fleet fight or a 1v1.

In any case, let's calm it now and see what the new buy-one-get-one-free budget Nestor brings to Eve...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2014-02-18 16:14:11 UTC
Centurax wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Many thanks for your input Rise. It appears I was mistaken about the original intent. This leaves something of a mystery surrounding the ring structure, but there we are.

For now as far as I am concerned, this thread is done. I have a definitive answer from a Dev and the change will not happen in the next iteration.

No doubt your team (and certainly I) will monitor the Nestor's fortunes post-drone-drops. If it still proves to be uninspiring at 500 million, I'll return to the theme in a new thread.

Thanks everyone for participating.

ISD people, please feel free to lock the thread.




Don't give up, the squeaky wheel and all that Lol.


You can't change a civilization over night. Memes need time to cultivate and cross-pollinate. Rise has other things on this mind right now, but he won't forget the thoughtful debate that took place here.

One day in the future, I am sure he'll see things differently.

In the meantime, let's get back to blowing s**t up!

BTW, who's the scumbag who just declared war on my corp? You're going to be one dead m*t***f**k*r!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#99 - 2014-02-18 16:31:43 UTC
Centurax wrote:
Fine the Stratios can do that maybe not the DPS best i have seen is around 700. But what if i am not satisfied with the Stratios as a platform, what if i want more damage and better tank maybe something like this:
1) 1200 - 1500+ dps
2) Has a minimum of 150k EHP with tank
3) Has a covert ops
4) Speed isn't really an issue, but high warp speeds would be a plus

edit: the specs above are for a general covert ops ship not the Nestor


well too fing bad if you want that because thats OP as ****.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#100 - 2014-02-18 16:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi

We may need to make more changes to get it established as the aspirational ship that we want it to be, but I still think a lot of the problems here are related to cost. If the Nestor was 500mil I doubt this discussion would be as common. We'll see how the new drops coming soon affect price and if we still have this problem we can look at making more changes.


Sell price of Vindi: 935M
Sell price of Mach: 780M
Sell Price of Bhaal: 795M
Sell Price of Nightmare: 734M
Sell Price of Rattler: 405M (because it is a piece of junk now that drones are garbage)

So let me get this straight.

You plan on jamming so many chips into the game that you force the price down to 500M.
Well, given its 182M material costs, that will be a lot of chips.
Because as it has quite correctly been pointed out, SoE LP holders sure won't be building them when you factor in the 150M and 600,000 LP required in high sec.

And when you flood the market with the Nestor chip, how many of the frigate and cruiser class chips are created as well, if the same ratios are applied as the other pirate BS/cruiser/frig ships?

BTW, you might want to examine why 4 of the 5 pirate BS's are way way more than 500M.
How about demand? Because they are good at what they are designed to do?

The way I see this, you have a few options, some better than others.

1. Improve the ship's stats so demand increases and coupled with a "normal" distribution of chips, the price is settled by the market (not you), and is probably in the 700-800 M range. This will probably still end up as a huge nerf to the high sec community as they will also lead to a large drop in the Stratios price when their chips come online.
2. Ruin the other pirate BS's with a "rebalance", so the demand drops for them, their prices crash to Rattlesnake levels, and you flood the market with Nestor chips, with the current useless stats.
3. Lower the LP costs and ISK costs in the LP stores for the ship, to manipulate the Nestor sell price to your desired 500M range, and maintain the "normal" drop rate for the chips compared to BPC's for the other pirate ships. That way the chip drops and LP stores are both lending to the supply of the ship.
4. Improve the ship stats, plus lower the LP/ISK requirements as per #3, and let the market forces prevail after that.

I am no libertarian, but the less intrusion by a CCP dev into dictating the price of this ship, the better.

But this is CCP I am talking about.

So I am betting you wreck the other BS stats, and also flood the market with SoE ship chips with some artificially high drop rate of the chips, effectively ruining the LP for BPC conversion rates for those 2 ships.