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Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended

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MonkeyMagic Thiesant
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-02-17 17:53:18 UTC
Covops smartbombing battleship would be ridiculous.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#42 - 2014-02-17 18:37:15 UTC
It really wouldn't be OP at all- this is a ship made by the Sisters of EVE, and it is apparently designed to be useful for wormhole exploration+travel, as well as exploring normally. No sensible person would take a 1.7 bil ISK BS into a wormhole (myself included) without a VERY GOOD reason to do it. A Cov Ops cloak would be a perfect reason, and it's actually generate demand for a ship that is, as of now, quite useless taking its cost into account. With a Cov Ops cloak, it'd actually be able to travel around null itself (alone) a little more effectively- that is, with less risk of getting caught at gates than other pirate/t1 battleships would have. If you scream "THAT'S OP THOUGH BRAH" then you're really not thinking about the base of the SoE ships- explor-f*****-ation. Even though nobody would really use the ship to do data/relic sites, it'd make sense to make it able to explore (i.e. combat sites, et cetera, along with relic/data if you're that kind of guy, and Ghost sites) without a scout or other pilot along with you.

The Covert Ops cloak would NOT be overpowered on the Nestor- in fact, I think it would be the only thing that could make the ship worth it to buy now.

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#43 - 2014-02-17 19:49:51 UTC
For the sake of balance you don't take only what you intend for a feature to be used for, but all the other things it might be used for as well.

a Cov-ops logi platform would dramatically increase the potential power of a cov-ops fleet.

Its implications for tank and damage aren't that bad, I agree. But this ship does more than just spit out damage drones and probes.

The point of the thread is to find a reason why the ship should not get a cov-ops cloak. This is why---it not only adds to the firepower of a cov-ops fleet, it magnifies it. It would not be very OP on it's own, but its would make one hell of a backbone for cov-ops fleet support.

While I fully endorse making battleships the backbone of a fleet composition, in this case the ability to warp around while cloaked, especially with the nature of drone assist (I am not against drone assist, but this would get bad quickly) to circumvent any lock delay and lock time problems, combined with Logi ability... it would be an exceedingly difficult fleet to counter in any way.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#44 - 2014-02-17 19:54:32 UTC
Well I can see there being good ways to balance against what you said- but still, if the cost stays as high as it is, it could work possibly (at least in my mind)

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#45 - 2014-02-17 20:14:48 UTC
The issue is that cost is never a balance point.

The question is would the Nestor be more powerful, by whatever metrics the devs want to establish, than other ships in it's intended weight class.

If they want to indicate with the price point that the ship is intended to be more powerful than other pirate faction battleships, that's fine... but until they say it, then this ship need have no better ability than the others of it's class.

...and yes, while it's use would be focused primarily in fleets, this ship would indeed outperform any other ship of it's type if given a cov-ops cloak because of the uncounterable nature of cloaking itself. It would make Cov-ops fleets fearsome indeed. I am not saying that is a bad thing, just that it makes them far more powerful than current.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-02-17 21:19:23 UTC
Thank you for your reasoned argument.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
The request for 'empirical data' is just an excuse to not accept any argument you dislike. As nothing even similar has ever been allowed in game, even among the BLOP Battleships, no empirical data is possible.


Not at all. I am not emotionally invested in my position, I am simply waiting for someone to construct an argument from a firm foundation, rather than a hastily constructed opinion based in dogma, fear or ignorance.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

While I dont personally care how the nullsec folks shoot at eachother, I can see where this ship would be an exceedingly powerful ship with a covops cloak, as it would then largely negate one of the key balances of the other covops ships- that being the weak tank.

Given the lack of any counter to cloaking itself this ship would magnify the combat potential of a cloaked fleet to unexplored levels. Lacking the ability to jump or bridge it is not at its fullest potential, but that it has no reason to decloak ever once in a given system until it is doing its damage and supporting a fleet of similar ships would still open it up to what I would see as fairly abusive power levels. Its only vunerable moments would be in active combat and while using a gate. Potentially this ship could operate indefinitely behind enemy lines with almost complete freedom to inflict damage and perfect safety when not inflicting it.


How is this manifestly different to a fleet that contains stratios'? I appreciate that the nestor brings a little more DPS and a lot more RR than a stratios, but numbers can solve that. How is it different in principle?

Mike Voidstar wrote:

This is at its core a larger issue with cloaking in general. The issue would not exist if cloaking itself was not so freely abusable due to its nature as a perfect defense, and if that were not the case then BS Logi ship built around its use would not be so abusive.


As you rightly point out, that is a separate subject about which people will have all kinds of opinions. I think it's reasonable (and realistic) that ships should be able to dispense clouds of "chaff" to reveal nearby cloaked vessels, but we digress.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#47 - 2014-02-17 22:00:03 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
How is this manifestly different to a fleet that contains stratios'? I appreciate that the nestor brings a little more DPS and a lot more RR than a stratios, but numbers can solve that. How is it different in principle?




There are a number of factors here. Most importantly is the RR. The Nestor is not the most horrific Battleship tank ever, but with its built in resists the RR stacks powerfully. A fleet composed with a few of them at it's core, accompanied by other Cov-ops or sisters ships, especially the frigates, makes for a very powerful setup with drone assist. You are right, the damage is not much more than a Stratios is going to bring, but the Nestor is bringing much more to the battlefield than just the damage of it's drones. which is about all the Stratios does.

This is of course no worse than you could pull off with a few Sins accompanied by Covops.... except they can't use the cov-ops cloaks either. Nothing currently in game can bring the power of a cov-ops cloak combined with powerful RR with useful ranges, especially with anywhere near the damage output a well skilled Nestor is going do with Sentries assisted to the frigates.

Everything is always a numbers game. Cov-ops specifically circumvents that weakness by being 100% in control of when or if to engage. There is currently no counter to a cloak once it's in system except to wait for the pilot to shut it off. This makes the Cov-ops cloak a very, very dangerous thing when it comes with a tank made of more than paper and capable of supporting both powerful passive plated tanking and powerful RR to hold it up. The possibilities afforded to a Nestor backed cov-ops fleet would allow them to engage much stronger targets than currently, something that is prevented by the weak cov-ops tanks currently available.

While the thing costs more than my first 2 children combined, and it could certainly use something(tm) to give it a bit better direction than it has, a Cov-ops cloak would push it way to far in the other direction because of it's potential tank and the use of drones as it's primary damage. The RR bonus combined with the resist bonus actually makes this thing a powerful fleet battleship that would be dangerous in numbers---a thing that has not been explored much yet because of it's price.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-02-17 22:09:50 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
How is this manifestly different to a fleet that contains stratios'? I appreciate that the nestor brings a little more DPS and a lot more RR than a stratios, but numbers can solve that. How is it different in principle?




There are a number of factors here. Most importantly is the RR. The Nestor is not the most horrific Battleship tank ever, but with its built in resists the RR stacks powerfully. A fleet composed with a few of them at it's core, accompanied by other Cov-ops or sisters ships, especially the frigates, makes for a very powerful setup with drone assist. You are right, the damage is not much more than a Stratios is going to bring, but the Nestor is bringing much more to the battlefield than just the damage of it's drones. which is about all the Stratios does.

This is of course no worse than you could pull off with a few Sins accompanied by Covops.... except they can't use the cov-ops cloaks either. Nothing currently in game can bring the power of a cov-ops cloak combined with powerful RR with useful ranges, especially with anywhere near the damage output a well skilled Nestor is going do with Sentries assisted to the frigates.

Everything is always a numbers game. Cov-ops specifically circumvents that weakness by being 100% in control of when or if to engage. There is currently no counter to a cloak once it's in system except to wait for the pilot to shut it off. This makes the Cov-ops cloak a very, very dangerous thing when it comes with a tank made of more than paper and capable of supporting both powerful passive plated tanking and powerful RR to hold it up. The possibilities afforded to a Nestor backed cov-ops fleet would allow them to engage much stronger targets than currently, something that is prevented by the weak cov-ops tanks currently available.

While the thing costs more than my first 2 children combined, and it could certainly use something(tm) to give it a bit better direction than it has, a Cov-ops cloak would push it way to far in the other direction because of it's potential tank and the use of drones as it's primary damage. The RR bonus combined with the resist bonus actually makes this thing a powerful fleet battleship that would be dangerous in numbers---a thing that has not been explored much yet because of it's price.


Thank you for your reasoned argument, which has been very well stated.

However, this doctrine is already available in Eve. We have Tech 3 ships which are capable of full covops while fielding sentries and remote reps and a T2 tank - the Proteus.

Despite the doctrine having been available for going on 4 years, no-one has yet wrought havoc through nullsec with this kind of fleet.

Again, the issue is simply scale.

How do you respond?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-02-18 00:01:22 UTC
" as originally intended " ??

wut ??
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#50 - 2014-02-18 00:13:37 UTC
There is nothing simple about the scale.

The Nestor is going to bring good resists, battleship plates, and large remote reps. Those reps will havecuseful ranges, not tying the ships they are supporting to within 8k of the battleship.

I am not saying you cant do something like it on a smaller scale, but the proteus has nothing like the range on the RR, and will not be using large reps. Its fitting is going to be tighter.

I will admit that I dont know the difference in EHP between the two, but there is also the difference in effectiveness between medium and large repairers.

At the end of the day, these larger scale ships are prohibited cov-ops cloaks because its just too much. Perhaps this idea can get more traction after the BLOPS balance pass. If it becomes determined that battleship scale ships are not OP with covops cloaks, then this can be revisited.

At this time I could see giving the bonus the BLOPS have for cloaks, but nothing further.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-02-18 00:56:01 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is nothing simple about the scale.

The Nestor is going to bring good resists, battleship plates, and large remote reps. Those reps will havecuseful ranges, not tying the ships they are supporting to within 8k of the battleship.

I am not saying you cant do something like it on a smaller scale, but the proteus has nothing like the range on the RR, and will not be using large reps. Its fitting is going to be tighter.

I will admit that I dont know the difference in EHP between the two, but there is also the difference in effectiveness between medium and large repairers.

At the end of the day, these larger scale ships are prohibited cov-ops cloaks because its just too much. Perhaps this idea can get more traction after the BLOPS balance pass. If it becomes determined that battleship scale ships are not OP with covops cloaks, then this can be revisited.

At this time I could see giving the bonus the BLOPS have for cloaks, but nothing further.


dual RR proteus will tank 1000dps per partner (that's medium t2 reps). a gang of 20 can tank 20k dps unheated. A gang of 50 can tank 50k unheated.

We still don't see proteus covops RR gangs.

Why should we see large gangs of Nestors? If we do, won't the response be a hot-drop?

"just too much" is a meaningless phrase.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#52 - 2014-02-18 00:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Unfortunately, without the ability to travel while cloaked, these will be very rarely utilised in wormhole space,

These ships are slow, take forever to lock and have a timer to prevent locking after decloaking. ( if that were to be allowed)

They can only launch 5 drones.

I find it hard to see how there are such concerns as to whether it would make it overpowered if cloaked as most ships could warp off before it could lock them.

Other smaller ships can lock and scram them, they would gain a combat advantage from cloaking. A battleship, nope, no different from a dominix warping from 5 au.

In wormhole space,Where the cloak would be an advantage is in NOT advertising to the world that there are hostiles in the enemies system.
Without an ability to travel while cloaked it is like a big advertising sign.that totally gives away the fleet. A fatal and unacceptable option. So no nestors.

Anywhere else the presence of local makes this irrelevant. you can see the 30 man fleet, even if you cannot see the ships, warping cloaked or uncloaked makes no difference. You know they are there.

So yes I believe that the nestor, needs a covert ops cloak.
And I do not believe it makes it overpowered.
The reality is that there has not been one before, so it is thought there must never be one.

If you believe it too overpowered, think exactly why warping whilst cloaked would change things that would be different from a battleship uncloaking, then warping in uncloaked. If anything the battleship is the ship least likely to gain an advantage. This is not the ship that should worry you. Now a cloakey hic? That you should fear.

People who are stating a concern are seeming to say that battleships must not have a cloak, it makes them overpowered. Sorry to break the news, but battleships can already fit a cloak.

Please say why you feel warping while cloaked changes things so much that the nestor should be deprived of it.

Then we can see exactly WHAT would make it unbalanced and resolve that.

Because without a covert ops cloak it may as well just be written off as a failiure.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#53 - 2014-02-18 01:53:25 UTC
To those opposed:

Do you just...not want a better (read: useful)ship or something? Ugh

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-02-18 02:02:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
To those opposed:

Do you just...not want a better (read: useful)ship or something? Ugh



More this:

1) Nestor sells for around the price of a carrier.

2) Proposal to buff the Nestor seem to be based on the idea of making it "worth" it's current price (a price that is determined by the demand for other items like sisters probes that also consume SOE LP).

3) Buffing the Nestor to make it "worth" the price of a carrier, regardless of how you do it will make it OP.

Despite delusional beliefs otherwise the SOE LP is equivalent to a material cost and people are no more likely to build and sell Nestors for below build cost (including LP) than they are to build and sell something like a Raven for less than the Tritanium they need to build the Raven is worth.



Better solution:

Minor buff/rebalance to makethe Nestor fit more specific roles and at the same time EITHER reduce the SOE LP substantially OR detach the market price from SOE altogether,
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#55 - 2014-02-18 02:11:04 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:



More this:

1) Nestor sells for around the price of a carrier.

2) Proposal to buff the Nestor seem to be based on the idea of making it "worth" it's current price (a price that is determined by the demand for other items like sisters probes that also consume SOE LP).

3) Buffing the Nestor to make it "worth" the price of a carrier, regardless of how you do it will make it OP.

Despite delusional beliefs otherwise the SOE LP is equivalent to a material cost and people are no more likely to build and sell Nestors for below build cost (including LP) than they are to build and sell something like a Raven for less than the Tritanium they need to build the Raven is worth.



Better solution:

Minor buff/rebalance to makethe Nestor fit more specific roles and at the same time EITHER reduce the SOE LP substantially OR detach the market price from SOE altogether,

Well if the Nessie is designed for WHs, then to make it reasonable to use it in one at ALL, a cov ops cloak would be almost necessary- like it was mentioned above, it'll still have BS scan res and will have a recalibration time, so it won't allow for any real surprises at ALL. The ship needs this module.

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#56 - 2014-02-18 02:20:21 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
To those opposed:
Do you just...not want a better (read: useful)ship or something? Ugh

I think that's becoming apparent...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-02-18 04:28:13 UTC
Could be wrong, but P sure I expressly remember CCP Rise and Fozzie saying the Nestor was never supposed to be Cov Ops capable. Cov Ops cloak BS are a very unbalanced Idea, IMO. What would really make the Nestor useful and a complete and total BA was to give it jump capability. Yeah, I'm thinking with BLops. Cov cloak isn't a role for battleships.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#58 - 2014-02-18 04:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Kenrailae wrote:
Could be wrong, but P sure I expressly remember CCP Rise and Fozzie saying the Nestor was never supposed to be Cov Ops capable. Cov Ops cloak BS are a very unbalanced Idea, IMO. What would really make the Nestor useful and a complete and total BA was to give it jump capability. Yeah, I'm thinking with BLops. Cov cloak isn't a role for battleships.

I keep hearing that a Covert Ops would be unbalanced, but @ $1.6-billion I'm still awaiting proof...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-02-18 04:51:10 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Could be wrong, but P sure I expressly remember CCP Rise and Fozzie saying the Nestor was never supposed to be Cov Ops capable. Cov Ops cloak BS are a very unbalanced Idea, IMO. What would really make the Nestor useful and a complete and total BA was to give it jump capability. Yeah, I'm thinking with BLops. Cov cloak isn't a role for battleships.

I keep hearing that a Covert Ops would be unbalanced, but @ $1.6-billion I'm still awaiting proof...



Vindi+ Cov Ops Cloak
Bhaal+ Cov Ops Cloak
Carrier+ Cov Ops Cloak


All those are in that price neighborhood.


Besides, something that ugly shouldn't be allowed to hide itself. It should be shot with a vengeance. :P

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#60 - 2014-02-18 04:57:37 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Vindi+ Cov Ops Cloak
Bhaal+ Cov Ops Cloak
Carrier+ Cov Ops Cloak

All those are in that price neighborhood.

Besides, something that ugly shouldn't be allowed to hide itself. It should be shot with a vengeance. :P

Except we're not talking about Vindicators, Bhaalgorns or carriers (all of which are under a billion, btw). This is a $1.6-billion enhanced blender. I don't have a snappy comeback for the ugly comment.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.