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Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#221 - 2014-04-08 20:59:30 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Fairly well reasoned arguments on both sides. My issue is with the cloaky t3 argument as to why a Nestor would not be op with a cloak. As is a Nestor can do 1200 DPS @ 23km + 10km in a potential cloak fit. A Proteus would not have anywhere near that DPS or range in a cloaky fit. That said I am not taking sides, merely pointing out the flaw in a particular argument.

T3s aren't battleships, either.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Viribus
Dark Enlightenment
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#222 - 2014-04-08 21:47:21 UTC
i wish it had a jumpu drive

I've seen literally no one using the nestor. It'll be nice to see someone risk such a pricey ship in combat, and not just using it in RR plexing gangs

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#223 - 2014-04-08 22:27:38 UTC
Give it a smartbomb bonus. Everyone loves a good disco!

No trolling please
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2014-04-08 23:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Give it a smartbomb bonus. Everyone loves a good disco!


OK, I can go for that.

How about this:
gallente battleship: 20% per level increase in resistance to smartbomb damage
amarr battleship: 20% per level increase in smartbomb damage output and range

Special ability: May set off a smartbomb at any range from a gate, station or wormhole.

"The sisters of eve, being a bunch of puritanical killjoy lefties, decided that capsuleers were having far too much fun jumping through wormholes and gates. So they developed the Noctis, parked one on every wormhole they could find and then bought stock in companies that make scanning frigates and pod goo. This strategy for market manipulation is now taught in every business school in New Eden. Meanwhile, disgruntled sisters have been caught selling Nocti on the black market where it has earned the accolade of System Denial Vessel par Excellence. The naughty sisters have been sentenced to a jolly good spanking, which they rather enjoyed."

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#225 - 2014-04-08 23:43:02 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
(a) Well, the BLOPS balance hasnt happened yet. Hopefully it will soon, and that will give us a better baseline from which to argue changes to the Nestor.

The ship isnt bad. Before AI started eating drones I would have bought one even at its current price, though I feel it is way, way too high. But I just run high sec missions with friends and family. A ship capable of both decent damage outlay and logistic fleet support would be perfect for me. I may yet pick one up, or go check out the Sisters missions in high sec and just get one of my own. Might be a fun family project to get everyone a Sister's ship.

b) For wormholes the case for a cov-ops cloak has been made. But just as no cloak at all is needed for high sec mission runners, Wormholes are just one area of space. WH dwellers have adapted to life with just the current cov ops ships available, (b1)they dont need a cov ops Nestor, (b2)it would just be real nice and fill a new niche, (b3)and the hull just wont get used much.

c) I think the main issue is the function of cloaks overall, and with BLOPS balance on the horizon this will get some attention and either cloaking mechanics get adjusted or the severe penalties that have been currently deemed needed and the reasoning for disallowing cov-ops cloaks on battleships will be revisited and adjusted.


a) I don't see any connection between a cov-ops Nestor and Blops, in the same way that I see no connection between the stratios and a recon ship. It does not seem to me that this is the correct basis for a design.

b) With respect, I don't think any ship is designed with hisec mission running in mind (with the exception of the original iterations of the marauders). Even they are now designed around use in hostile space.

b1) no, we don't *need* T3s or HACs either, but we use them because they're useful.
b2) which logically means that it is likely to see some use
b3) this is an unfounded assertion.

c) Are you able to explain what you think is wrong with cloaking? It seems to me to work fairly well. It provides a very good intel advantage (in w-space where there is no local to give you away) but has some serious drawbacks such as the targeting delay. It's also no use to you in a slow ship having just jumped through a wormhole into a camp.

Just to re-iterate, this thread is asking for the covert ops cloak to work on a Nestor as it does on a stratios. There is no mention or request at all for black-ops functions such as bridging.

It might be worth me pointing out that the lore states that the Nestor was designed specifically for w-space. I assert therefore that it should at least fulfill a reasonable role in w-space.

That role will never be scanning and it will never be hacking ghost sites.


A) As already discussed--- you asked for logical argument in the OP for why a Cov-Ops Cloak would be OP. The argument stands that the current situation has been deemed balanced by the Devs, as evidenced by years of silence and inaction with the issue. If the current uses of Cov-Ops cloak is balanced, then expanding their use to more powerful ships is OP. BLOPS is the current standard for cloaking battleships, and even they do not get Cov-Ops cloaks. I personally don't understand why not, and hopefully the balance pass on BLOPS will address at least cloaking on battleships, which may re-open the door on this discusson concerning the Nestor, and hopefully cloaking as a whole.

B) I am aware of the disdain that many have for those that prefer PVE playstyles. While only a small, half hearted attempt is made to balancing things for the environment, it does happen, if not particularly well. My only point was that the Nestor is not garbage for every playstyle--- if they ever do something about AI vs Drones I will find quite a bit of use for the ship. The notion that the ship won't see much use in wormholes assumed that no further changes get made.

C) I can explain a lot about what is wrong with cloaks. There are voluminous threads about it in exhausting detail already, many of which we have both participated in. The core is that they are broken so long as they are not huntable in open space. They don't need to be obvious, or easy, or even cheap to hunt, but they should not be capable of remaining safer than in POS shields indefinitely while in an enemies open space, despite active hunters earnest efforts to the contrary.

I don't disagree that the ship should be useful in W-Space. I don't live there, but it's my understanding that not every ship there has a Cov-Ops cloak, which provides at least the beginning of an argument that the Nestor does not need one to be at all viable, much less actually desired.

Despite my arguments against, I really do think the ship would be fine with a Cov-ops cloak, but an idea needs reasoned dissension to prove it's worth.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#226 - 2014-04-09 02:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I don't disagree that the ship should be useful in W-Space. I don't live there, but it's my understanding that not every ship there has a Cov-Ops cloak, which provides at least the beginning of an argument that the Nestor does not need one to be at all viable, much less actually desired.

Yes, but they also don't have the speed and agility of a brick like the Nestor, either. Here's my argument for a Covert Ops cloak on the Nestor: the align time; it's bar-none the worst on any battleship.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#227 - 2014-04-09 03:44:00 UTC
Mocam wrote:
No battleships in the game are capable of fitting a covert ops cloak. It's been asked after for the T2 Black Ops craft for quite some time.

As for your metric based upon W-space - that's quite a different environment than K-space with all that can and cannot be done differently in each location.

"put it in and try it" - not a good idea.

It would have to be "proven" to be too powerful and that means a lot of dead ships out there to prove it and a lot of pissed off people if/when it is proven that way as their new *I WIN!* ship loses that ability - after they've spent billions getting a batch of them setup for use.

So if it's proven to be over-powered, you'll tick off all those who lost stuff in the interim and all those who lose their new OP toy. That's a no-win situation for CCP just to prove what they are saying.

Technically true but effectively not. A T3 Proteus with covert ops puts out the equivalent DPS of a Sin with a bigger tank, better bonuses, superior non nerfed BS stats. Sure it's called a Cruiser but it's effectively more BS than cruiser.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#228 - 2014-04-09 05:40:17 UTC
Daoden wrote:
No. One reason I say no is that a cov ops cloak allows use of cov op bridges, this would allow BLOPs fleets to now get more fire power and tank and would make BLOPs fleet be the new FOTM. Allowing players to hot drop any ship or structure with remote repping spider tanking drone using battleships. Think of slowcats that can breach cyno jamming. The added bonus that they use both drones and lasers (2 weapons systems that can almost never urn out of ammo) this would allow a fleet of nesters and a BLOPs with some support cruisers to run the whole game on their own.

edit:typos


Remove lasers
Remove Drone bonuses


This turns it into a Blops Logisitcs Ship;

I suggested this role back in the "New Way to Acquire" thread and was pretty much laughed at and told I was wrong in 10 different ways.

I still firmly believe this is the role for the Nestor.

The ship would effectively lose its offensive capability to become a true support / logistics ship, give it bonuses to effectively become a Blops Logistics ship.
Can fit covert cloak but reactivation delay and sensor re-calibration are 30 secs and 10 secs respectively.
Can jump with Blops but not light portal.

Give it a bastion / triage type module. 3 minutes duration 200 stront (reduced by skills to a minimum 100 at lvl 5)
So as to not make it an OP logistics wall - reduce triage bonuses by 50%. (Too much - I think so to but hey, I'm free to dream)

Jump fuel consumed same as a carrier or dread jumping to a cyno.
50% bonus to remote armor and shield boosters range
7.5% bonus to remote armor and shield booster amount
2000m fleet hanger, with fitting service
1000m fuel bay - for jump and triage fuel storage


The only reason anyone in nulsec would have to fear this would be - I'm lazy and don't want to risk losing my afktars while plexing.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#229 - 2014-04-09 06:34:52 UTC
+1 Like from me as I did also in other people's who suggested this in forums.Nestor it's so expensive for it's current role which you can do in many cheaper ships .At least with covert ops it will justify the price.

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#230 - 2014-04-09 06:51:11 UTC
+10 virus strenght for data and relic analyzers is a waste on this hull.

This hull is BS. It may be buffed to 4,9 warp speed with LHVOII but it align time is 10sec. Try to do +20 jumps looking for sites and you will get what i mean.
Non combat explo ships must be agile and fast. Not to mention there are plenty cheaper ship that can do same role.

I think it should be non-combat logistics ship for both shield/amror.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#231 - 2014-04-09 07:01:28 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
We all know it, the Nestor without a covops cloak is as useful as a chocolate teapot and as desirable as your mother in law after six glasses of sherry.

The dev argument against it getting the covops cloak is that it will be "too powerful", but the dev team is unable to come up with reasoned arguments or empirical experimental results to support this view.

This thread seeks to persuade the dev team, through gentle pressure from the player base, to deliver the Nestor as it should have been born.

Give the Nestor convops cloak ability and the ability to warp cloaked. No more, no less. 30 seconds before reactivation of the cloak is reasonable.

Please like if you agree.

If you do not agree, please provide reasoned argument backed with experimental data.


give it black ops cloak bonuses... i.e. improved cloaks

No ******* cov ops cloak...

enough of warp and cloak **** in this game and yes... it would be op.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#232 - 2014-04-09 07:57:52 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


I don't disagree that the ship should be useful in W-Space. I don't live there, but it's my understanding that not every ship there has a Cov-Ops cloak, which provides at least the beginning of an argument that the Nestor does not need one to be at all viable, much less actually desired.



The issue is the limited mass allowed on wormholes. For the mass of the Nestor, I can bring 3 T3's, all of which tank better and do great dps. Also, each T3 with faction fits would cost less than a Nestor.

No trolling please
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#233 - 2014-04-09 12:13:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mocam wrote:
No battleships in the game are capable of fitting a covert ops cloak. It's been asked after for the T2 Black Ops craft for quite some time.

As for your metric based upon W-space - that's quite a different environment than K-space with all that can and cannot be done differently in each location.

"put it in and try it" - not a good idea.

It would have to be "proven" to be too powerful and that means a lot of dead ships out there to prove it and a lot of pissed off people if/when it is proven that way as their new *I WIN!* ship loses that ability - after they've spent billions getting a batch of them setup for use.

So if it's proven to be over-powered, you'll tick off all those who lost stuff in the interim and all those who lose their new OP toy. That's a no-win situation for CCP just to prove what they are saying.

Technically true but effectively not. A T3 Proteus with covert ops puts out the equivalent DPS of a Sin with a bigger tank, better bonuses, superior non nerfed BS stats. Sure it's called a Cruiser but it's effectively more BS than cruiser.


T3 Proteus isn't very comparable with a BS Drone Ship.

DPS may be similar, but application certainly won't be. What's the envelope on that Proteus, maybe 8k? Blasters suck for range really, really hard.

DPS Envelope on using sentries is about 60k, and can be augmented for more. Even without the tracking bonus of a Domi or Ishtar, drones hit pretty well.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#234 - 2014-04-09 12:33:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Maybe someone will come up with a non-Covert Ops cloak role for it...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tulara
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#235 - 2014-04-09 16:12:18 UTC
Arthur Aihaken doesn't want that RNI anyway Big smile

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=22849475
George Boothe
Blootered Bastards
#236 - 2014-04-09 16:16:30 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


T3 Proteus isn't very comparable with a BS Drone Ship.

DPS may be similar, but application certainly won't be. What's the envelope on that Proteus, maybe 8k? Blasters suck for range really, really hard.

DPS Envelope on using sentries is about 60k, and can be augmented for more. Even without the tracking bonus of a Domi or Ishtar, drones hit pretty well.



How much good does 60k range with sentries do you when literally 98% of all important fights in w-space are at zero on a wormhole?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#237 - 2014-04-09 17:17:07 UTC
George Boothe wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


T3 Proteus isn't very comparable with a BS Drone Ship.

DPS may be similar, but application certainly won't be. What's the envelope on that Proteus, maybe 8k? Blasters suck for range really, really hard.

DPS Envelope on using sentries is about 60k, and can be augmented for more. Even without the tracking bonus of a Domi or Ishtar, drones hit pretty well.



How much good does 60k range with sentries do you when literally 98% of all important fights in w-space are at zero on a wormhole?


Depends, really. Is that ship sitting 60k off that wormhole cloaked with a regular cloak, ready to decloak, drop drones and assign them to their buddy in the cov-ops frigate? If so you might see a bit of utility in that.

Obviously he might sit at half that so he can effectively use Gardes and maybe toss in some Logi.
Erad Stomper
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#238 - 2014-04-09 18:21:35 UTC
Who would buy this crap for 1.5B ? the nestor is useless, if it was a covert ops it would be usefull but who would pay that amount for a nestor when a marauder would do a far better job for less.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#239 - 2014-04-09 18:55:18 UTC
Price is not a factor in balance.

Even if it was, they are dedicated to bringing the price down. That may prove difficult, as many of them are on the market and those placing the orders wont lower the price willingly.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2014-04-09 19:01:05 UTC
Tulara wrote:
Arthur Aihaken doesn't want that RNI anyway Big smile

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=22849475


If it wasn't for fitting heroes like Arthur, you'd have no-one to sell officer loot to. You should be thanking him.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".