Intergalactic Summit

Ah but you see... you're wrong. There are a sizable number of Gallenteans that have their home on Caldari Prime, and your State agreed that Caldari Prime would remain under Federation control. While I'm personally of the opinion that the Caldari homeworld "should" be under your control, your own government agreed to something otherwise and thus my own personal opinion on this is moot.

But lets pretend for a second that we give you Caldari Prime. What about all the Gallenteans that currently have homes on Caldari? I'm certain at the very least, you would offer them State citizenship, but our cultures are different and I would guess many would not want to join the State. Would you just unceremoniously kick them out of their homes and off the planet? Treat them as second class? Our homeworlds are right in each others back yards, this would need to be handled VERY delicately with respect from both sides, lest animosity grow and fester again. You may think of them as "invaders", but many of them were born and raised on Caldari, but with Gallateen values, and know of no other home. Uprooting such people over this squabble would make them see you as the enemy, and it would start the bloodshed all over again.

You present an interesting position, Ms. Sythaeryn. I will not attempt to down play the evil of actual slave trading in the least, as it is a sick and disparaging practice.

Regarding the Caldari situation, I disagree with your assessment of them as a "safer" target. As we both know Factions within the State are a significant threat to Federation systems and planets.

You're quite right. I will not get my wish for the forseeable future. I will not dispute that. The situation is what it is and I have very little power to change it. Ishukone did what they could for the State in the circumstances and for that they should be (and are) thanked.

As regards the Federal citizens on Caldari Prime; yes, ideally they would accept State Citizenship. In reality we all know the majority would not. Again, yes; If the Caldari Prime were returned to us, any unwilling to accept the gift of citizenship would have to be removed. And why not? I certainly don't care one iota for them. My priority is and will remain the Caldari people and their State. What the Federation choose to do with these freeloaders once removed is none of my concern. Heartless? Perhaps but again I see no reason why I should care. They (more accurately their forefathers) took something that did not belong to them at gunpoint. If returned I see no reason why things should not return to their natural state of being.

Lets be honest, they are a mere drop of water in the vastness of your Federation and any trouble they could cause would be minimal at best.

But this is all moot as stated previously. The status quo exists and none of the people in any position to do anything about it have the will to. For fear of their people, further conflict or their careers.

Ah yes... so punish the sons for the crimes of the fathers, fathers whom have most likely passed on by now? Freeloaders eh? They must not work, pay taxes, or any of the like but instead live freely on the isk obtained by Caldari stipends all day. This must be what you believe, because I am not certain you think somebody that goes to work to earn their isk to put a roof over their head and pays their taxes is a freeloader... right?

You're right, it IS heartless what you propose, uprooting people who have worked to earn a living and making them lose their homes because of who they happened to be born to, through no fault of their own. Luckily your superiors are wiser than to actually do this, because they understand the issues it would cause and how it WOULDN'T be in the best interest of either government.

And here is the problem. I would, personally, support a move for the State to pay to relocate any who do not wish to remain on a Caldari Prime that would be, once more, the jewel of the State. The problem comes when those who are not Caldari, who do not wish to be Caldari, will not accept payment in lieu of their dubious (by my calculation) claim on Home.

I remember long and bitter arguments with Seriphyn Inhonores to that end. He would claim to be more Caldari than I because he was descended from the thieves who stole my people's home. Is there an amount of money that these people would accept instead of their claim? There is no amount that I would accept in lieu of mine.

Sounds to me like you already answered your question. For many... it isn't about the isk, something you already understand.

I'm fairly certain you know I wouldn't describe people that work for their homes as Parasites or leeches either. You do, interesting. I've never been a fan of war, or killing. This is probably why I bang rocks together for a living and am considered a Dove, but I do defend myself when required. Your solution however, would only bring back war, with more lives lost, more bloodshed, and more people on both sides fanning the hate.

You talk of the past, but I think you're stuck on it. It's important that we learn from the past, but we also need to learn to move on to. People from both sides need to simply let go. I suspect that won't ever happen sadly.

It is far easier to ask someone to let go of their past than to let go of your own, I find. And yes, I include myself. I've set foot on Home only a handful of times, yet feel my connection to the place to be visceral and present in the now.

Sadly, if we simply write off the possibility of either the Caldari dropping their claim to the world of their birth, or the Gallente to the rights of those few of their citizens born there since they stole the planet, what is left is the simple question of which side is willing to enforce it's claim. I think the Caldari have proven they have the will to do thus much in the past. We are capable of biding for centuries until we have the resources and the opportunity.

I don't like that our need to control our Homeworld means we must be eternally at odds with the Federation, but I'm willing to sadly accept it. And do what must be done. You suggest that we're 'stuck on the past' and I agree - what amazes me is that the Federation doesn't simply use that need to broker a deal for Caldari Prime that keeps the State quiet for centuries, paying it.

The whole notion of material things being distinctly mine or yours is seriously flawed. We all share this space and that is reality regardless of how you feel about your neighbor. Your ancestors may have come from Caldari Prime, but that does not mean you, or anyone else for that matter, owns that piece of rock.

Land, air, and resources are all shared. Some lay claim and try to restrict others access, but truly they have no right. Just because someone spilled their blood or found it first does not mean a damn thing. Property rights only exist in the legal world. Truly the only thing anyone owns is their own body and it's contents, such as thoughts and emotions.

I imagine most of you disagree, but I suggest you consider it for awhile and dare to see things from a non-imperical view.

Our history is limited. We know where the modern races grew from and formed to what they are now. There is much of our history lost to time, however. Who's to say that those who eventually became the Caldari were the first ones there? Who's to say they didn't evict whomever laid claim first? This is clearly rhetorical but it's meant to illustrate a point that it doesn't matter who was there first for someone to make a home there. I have just as much right to property on Caldari Prime as someone living there for generations.

I imagine most of you disagree with that as well. It's to be expected afterall. Entitlement is such a bitter idea.

These worlds belong to us just as much as they belong to the stars and the void.

This xenophobic mentality helps nothing. There are millions upon millions of individuals who live and thrive in places without being an official citizen of that nation. Amarr live in Jita, Caldari live in Rens, Gallente live on Caldari Prime, and Minmatar live everywhere. There is nothing wrong with this.

You don't own a rock. There is no sense to argue over something that can be and has been shared.

-Eran

Actually, the non-empirical view would be the one in which we are able to own stuff.

Ownership is entirely a legal and social construct, an agreement that A - whether A is a person or syndicate of persons - Has and is entitled to greater control over and benefit from a given place, object or concept than does B.

If ownership were empirical, it would be enforced by the nature of reality itself, rather than being either an agreement or simple practical application of power.

I own a starship because I am A: physically able to prevent others from accessing it without my permission, or else B: those who do have access to it have agreed not to use it without my permission, or C: they have agreed to, or will be forced to, adequately compensate me should they use it without my permission, doubly so if it's destroyed on their watch.

There's no empirical way in which any of this is is written in the warp and weft of spacetime - it's either contract, or conquest.

Most every human institution such as duty, honor, freedom, rights and dignity are similarly artificial.

That does not mean that they are unimportant.