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FOR THE FEDERATION !!!
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Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#61 - 2014-02-18 19:02:23 UTC
I have access to some very interesting memetic engineering tools used in our marketing department; we use them to disassemble advertisements for memetic vectors. I did a little search and replace on your text, sir, replacing the Caldari memplex with the Gallente memeplex. It's not perfect, but it seems to be quite intelligible.

SmartLexographer v6.3 wrote:

[SmartLexograph v6.3]
> srep CaldariMemeGroup GallenteMemeGroup

I submit these thoughts for your consideration. Think of these two prominent Gallente, Anvent Eturrer & Jacus Roden.

Think about the conditions from which they made their climb to infamy in one case and fame in the other.

Of course the flag waving defenders of all things Gallente want to not speak about Anvent Eturrer and instead play the role of victim after losing a fight they started.

Jacus Roden rose to power because so many of our Gallente cousins live in crushing poverty shackled to the oligarch's yoke of the so called "Federation". Jacus Roden is a creation of the liberal republic. Where then are his IGS defenders?

The hate filled bigoted monster Jacus Roden will eventually became even too toxic for the cesspool of heartless tyrannical governance that spawned him.

Not every democracy is evil. Not every democracy is good. Extremists from both points of view miss the bigger picture. To blindly trust democratic leadership that presides over an unfair system that has billions trapped in the dungeons of poverty is the type of fool hearty citizenship that allows a Jacus Roden type access to the levers of power. Have you learned nothing?


I found it to be an interesting exercise, and I hope that you do, too.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#62 - 2014-02-18 19:12:42 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Crushing poverty? I believe thats a bit of an overstatement, and given the focus was heavily mismanaged worlds of Caldari Constructions its improper to use them as the standard for the overall situation within the State.

It wasn't 'crushing poverty' that led to the rise of Heth, it was the betrayal of many Caldari ideals within the system that led to outrage. Mainly the laxing of the States founding ideals of Meritocracy and placement of value on those who deserve rather than those who were simply related to a Corporate CEO and mid-level manager.

It was Nepotism Mr. Ronin, more so than poverty that led to Heth's rise and his promise of restoring our nation to those ideals. At the time, to the average onlooker, Tibus Heth embodied that very idea. A factory worker rising to the top. The circumstances were obviously suspicious, but then again the masses didn't care, they were captivated.

I won't deny that there was poverty, its in every nation in New Eden, and it helps bed discontented ideals, but its a platform more so than the cause.
The Caldari masses were not merely captivated they were and are captives of a failing system.

You speak of poverty in the past tense, are you putting forth the position that poverty no longer exists in the Caldari state?


I was speaking about poverty during the time of Heth's rise in reference to it being a spring board. I certainly do not claim that there are no poor in Caldari space.

I also urge you to look past your own bias for but a moment and consider that Jita, the economic heartbeat of the Cluster was born from our system.

The Caldari Corporate system isn't 'failing' anymore than the predictable recessions and expansions typical in all forms of capitalistic society.

Yes, that even includes the Federation who's poor, by the way, also number in the millions. I'm personally eager to see where your assertion that the poor in the Caldari system numbers in the billions.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Temba Ronin
#63 - 2014-02-18 19:15:41 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
I have access to some very interesting memetic engineering tools used in our marketing department; we use them to disassemble advertisements for memetic vectors. I did a little search and replace on your text, sir, replacing the Caldari memplex with the Gallente memeplex. It's not perfect, but it seems to be quite intelligible.

SmartLexographer v6.3 wrote:

[SmartLexograph v6.3]
> srep CaldariMemeGroup GallenteMemeGroup

I submit these thoughts for your consideration. Think of these two prominent Gallente, Anvent Eturrer & Jacus Roden.

Think about the conditions from which they made their climb to infamy in one case and fame in the other.

Of course the flag waving defenders of all things Gallente want to not speak about Anvent Eturrer and instead play the role of victim after losing a fight they started.

Jacus Roden rose to power because so many of our Gallente cousins live in crushing poverty shackled to the oligarch's yoke of the so called "Federation". Jacus Roden is a creation of the liberal republic. Where then are his IGS defenders?

The hate filled bigoted monster Jacus Roden will eventually became even too toxic for the cesspool of heartless tyrannical governance that spawned him.

Not every democracy is evil. Not every democracy is good. Extremists from both points of view miss the bigger picture. To blindly trust democratic leadership that presides over an unfair system that has billions trapped in the dungeons of poverty is the type of fool hearty citizenship that allows a Jacus Roden type access to the levers of power. Have you learned nothing?


I found it to be an interesting exercise, and I hope that you do, too.
I indeed found your false comparison entertaining, perhaps such things work well in advertising when you are trying to sell people on a predetermined point of view about a product, but freedom and liberty can not be bottled and sold for profit.

Democracy has the advantage of being controlled by the will of the people, subject to their ability to vote out any rot that reaches the levers of power. I imagine I represent evil incarnate because I long for all my Caldari cousins to have the same access to control their government.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#64 - 2014-02-18 19:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Temba Ronin wrote:

Democracy has the advantage of being controlled by the will of the people, subject to their ability to vote out any rot that reaches the levers of power. I imagine I represent evil incarnate because I long for all my Caldari cousins to have the same access to control their government.


I believe I'm loosely quoting Tuulinen-haan when I say ...

"I'll be sure to bring that up in the next Hayasyoda Shareholders meeting."

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2014-02-18 19:26:34 UTC
I, myself, exercise a voting franchise within Kalaakiota corporation.

The Caldari system doesn't require one to work for a corporation in order to exercise a franchise, it simply requires you to be a Citizen of a Corporation and to control voting stock in that Corporation. Voting stock is within the means of most working class families, provided they manage their money carefully and we quite like the fact that people have to prove themselves interested in and worthy of the franchise.

Also, as a Caldari Citizen, can I tell you again to stop shooting Caldari citizens in order to improve their well being? It doesn't work. As demonstrated with Tibus Heth, please trust US to do any necessary shooting or make any needed changes if we don't like the way our society is working.

Why don't you focus on the liberties and rights of your own people?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Temba Ronin
#66 - 2014-02-18 19:33:50 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:

I was speaking about poverty during the time of Heth's rise in reference to it being a spring board. I certainly do not claim that there are no poor in Caldari space.

I also urge you to look past your own bias for but a moment and consider that Jita, the economic heartbeat of the Cluster was born from our system.

The Caldari Corporate system isn't 'failing' anymore than the predictable recessions and expansions typical in all forms of capitalistic society.

Yes, that even includes the Federation who's poor, by the way, also number in the millions. I'm personally eager to see where your assertion that the poor in the Caldari system numbers in the billions.
I find it interesting that because my position is different from yours you state that I am biased. Perhaps I am merely correct, but also perhaps you can not conceive of that possibility.

I have done business in every trade hub in New Eden high security space and there is nothing uniquely Caldari about Jita, unless you are taking credit for the numerous scam artists, gamblers, and pirates that reside there in numbers far beyond any other trade hub.

Is that the Caldari example you want to hold up?

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Temba Ronin
#67 - 2014-02-18 19:38:47 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I, myself, exercise a voting franchise within Kalaakiota corporation.

The Caldari system doesn't require one to work for a corporation in order to exercise a franchise, it simply requires you to be a Citizen of a Corporation and to control voting stock in that Corporation. Voting stock is within the means of most working class families, provided they manage their money carefully and we quite like the fact that people have to prove themselves interested in and worthy of the franchise.

Also, as a Caldari Citizen, can I tell you again to stop shooting Caldari citizens in order to improve their well being? It doesn't work. As demonstrated with Tibus Heth, please trust US to do any necessary shooting or make any needed changes if we don't like the way our society is working.

Why don't you focus on the liberties and rights of your own people?
Sir I have never shot one Caldari citizen. Your paranoid misplaced fear that we want to kill you is as inaccurate as your statement.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#68 - 2014-02-18 19:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Temba Ronin wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:

I was speaking about poverty during the time of Heth's rise in reference to it being a spring board. I certainly do not claim that there are no poor in Caldari space.

I also urge you to look past your own bias for but a moment and consider that Jita, the economic heartbeat of the Cluster was born from our system.

The Caldari Corporate system isn't 'failing' anymore than the predictable recessions and expansions typical in all forms of capitalistic society.

Yes, that even includes the Federation who's poor, by the way, also number in the millions. I'm personally eager to see where your assertion that the poor in the Caldari system numbers in the billions.


I find it interesting that because my position is different from yours you state that I am biased. Perhaps I am merely correct, but also perhaps you can not conceive of that possibility.

I have done business in every trade hub in New Eden high security space and there is nothing uniquely Caldari about Jita, unless you are taking credit for the numerous scam artists, gamblers, and pirates that reside there in numbers far beyond any other trade hub.

Is that the Caldari example you want to hold up?


Everyone has a bias Mr. Ronin, including myself. I am doing what I can to cast aside my own in favor of discussing things in a neutral stance.

I believe the difference here is that I am well aware of the faults within our own system, and have yet to deny that, where as you continue to press your own wavered position that we are somehow the anti-thesis to everything Federation.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Sadie Veerin
#69 - 2014-02-18 19:53:00 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:

Democracy has the advantage of being controlled by the will of the people, subject to their ability to vote out any rot that reaches the levers of power. I imagine I represent evil incarnate because I long for all my Caldari cousins to have the same access to control their government.


As Tuulinen said, we have plenty of ability to hold leaders accountable.

As for your "longing," you should concern yourself with you and yours instead of succumbing to the staggering arrogance it requires to believe oneself qualified to prescribe a way of life for others.
Temba Ronin
#70 - 2014-02-18 19:58:53 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:

I was speaking about poverty during the time of Heth's rise in reference to it being a spring board. I certainly do not claim that there are no poor in Caldari space.

I also urge you to look past your own bias for but a moment and consider that Jita, the economic heartbeat of the Cluster was born from our system.

The Caldari Corporate system isn't 'failing' anymore than the predictable recessions and expansions typical in all forms of capitalistic society.

Yes, that even includes the Federation who's poor, by the way, also number in the millions. I'm personally eager to see where your assertion that the poor in the Caldari system numbers in the billions.


I find it interesting that because my position is different from yours you state that I am biased. Perhaps I am merely correct, but also perhaps you can not conceive of that possibility.

I have done business in every trade hub in New Eden high security space and there is nothing uniquely Caldari about Jita, unless you are taking credit for the numerous scam artists, gamblers, and pirates that reside there in numbers far beyond any other trade hub.

Is that the Caldari example you want to hold up?


Everyone has a bias Mr. Ronin, including myself. I am doing what I can to cast aside my own in favor of discussing things a neutral stance.

I believe the difference here is that I am well aware of the faults within our own system, and have yet to deny that, where as you continue to press your own wavered position that we are somehow the anti-thesis to everything Federation.
I sir despair at the idea and the reality of Gallente and Caldari shedding each others blood. We in my simple opinion are two sides of the same coin, both human and flawed. The government that seeks to run itself with the efficiency of a business and the corporations that seek to govern. Without people being able to oppose their abuses both stumble forward never reaching their potential because they aspire to be what they can never be.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Jace Sarice
#71 - 2014-02-18 20:13:19 UTC
Of all the tasks which we have to face, the noblest and most sacred for humankind is that each nation must preserve its own traditions and way of life. All human failures and mistakes are due to the conditions of the time and the people involved, but there is one error which cannot be remedied so easily by replacing those who have made it, namely the failure to recognize the importance of conserving your own way of life in the face of those who would pressure you to give up that which makes you a part of your people.
Temba Ronin
#72 - 2014-02-18 20:36:11 UTC
Sadie Veerin wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:

Democracy has the advantage of being controlled by the will of the people, subject to their ability to vote out any rot that reaches the levers of power. I imagine I represent evil incarnate because I long for all my Caldari cousins to have the same access to control their government.


As Tuulinen said, we have plenty of ability to hold leaders accountable.

As for your "longing," you should concern yourself with you and yours instead of succumbing to the staggering arrogance it requires to believe oneself qualified to prescribe a way of life for others.
I think you would be hard pressed to find any example of me being arrogant on this topic. If you are honest. Unless you define wanting freedom and liberty for my fellow humans in the New Eden Cluster arrogant.

I find it interesting that the most frequent use of freedom and liberty when voiced by many here on IGS speaking on behalf of supposedly Caldari points of view all too often end with " so mind your business and attend to your own Gallente people" type of statement. I find the argument to convince me to not speak about what the Caldari state should be doing is undermined by those who in turn tell me what the Gallente Federation should be doing.

I for one proposed that Gallente Federation capsuleers should have joined the hunt for Tibus Heth with the sole intention of then returning him to face justice at the hands of the Caldari people. I was of course told to mind my own business by both Gallente and Caldari extremists. Turning Tibus over to Caldari justice does not sound too terribly arrogant like I felt we needed to tell them what to do. It was an offer to help them apprehend someone who had legitimately wronged them and a gesture that justice is not exclusive to the Federation.

I believe supporting freedom and liberty and democracy are in the best interests of humanity, but we need to temper those pursuits with just as strong a belief in "self determination". Do not mistake my attempts to convince you of what I perceive to be in your best interests as anything beyond that. I hope that good ideas and solutions win the day. I am listening to yours, convince me of their strengths. Believe in them enough to do more than jump to conclusions and make false comparisons.

Apparently IGS is viewed by many as a place for advertising their positions and not for a healthy vigorous debate of the issues facing he entire cluster. Shame is that it could indeed be where we exchange ideas instead of posturing.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Sadie Veerin
#73 - 2014-02-18 20:40:32 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Do not mistake my attempts to convince you of what I perceive to be in your best interests as anything beyond that.


I would criticize any State citizen that attempted to instruct the Federation on its own "best interests" just as much as I criticize you for thinking your opinion of our best interests is remotely your business or relevant to us.
Temba Ronin
#74 - 2014-02-18 20:41:32 UTC
Jace Sarice wrote:
Of all the tasks which we have to face, the noblest and most sacred for humankind is that each nation must preserve its own traditions and way of life. All human failures and mistakes are due to the conditions of the time and the people involved, but there is one error which cannot be remedied so easily by replacing those who have made it, namely the failure to recognize the importance of conserving your own way of life in the face of those who would pressure you to give up that which makes you a part of your people.
So you favor the continuance of slavery because it is the amarr tradition? Consider that that nation's tradition seeks to one day make slaves of the entire cluster. Think of the real consequences of what you say even if the sound is sweet to your own ears and ego.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Temba Ronin
#75 - 2014-02-18 20:43:37 UTC
Sadie Veerin wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Do not mistake my attempts to convince you of what I perceive to be in your best interests as anything beyond that.


I would criticize any State citizen that attempted to instruct the Federation on its own "best interests" just as much as I criticize you for thinking your opinion of our best interests is remotely your business or relevant to us.
If you have no ideas to exchange and have tested in debate I wish you well.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Candi LeMew
Division 13
#76 - 2014-02-18 20:44:15 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
The time is now to push back the Caldarian aggressors.

As a born and raised Federal citizen who was abandoned by her own family and received no aid or mercy from her own government I find your statement somewhat terrifying.

Had it not been for a noble State patriot and her family taking me under their wing I'd likely be dead by now. Makes you wonder what price the Federation's citizens truly pay for what they perceive as "freedom". The only time I ever saw evidence of "democracy" was as I sat malnourished and homeless on the street, dozens walking past me on their way to 'vote' without giving a single ****.

Be wary of what, or whom, you fight for Mister Vorpalstar. I know who I fight for and I know exactly why - a debt to an Achuran family that I can never truly repay.

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Sadie Veerin
#77 - 2014-02-18 20:46:11 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Jace Sarice wrote:
Of all the tasks which we have to face, the noblest and most sacred for humankind is that each nation must preserve its own traditions and way of life. All human failures and mistakes are due to the conditions of the time and the people involved, but there is one error which cannot be remedied so easily by replacing those who have made it, namely the failure to recognize the importance of conserving your own way of life in the face of those who would pressure you to give up that which makes you a part of your people.
So you favor the continuance of slavery because it is the amarr tradition? Consider that that nation's tradition seeks to one day make slaves of the entire cluster. Think of the real consequences of what you say even if the sound is sweet to your own ears and ego.


Despite our own moral distaste of slavery, it is not our place to tell the Amarr how to exist. Their culture, traditions, and existence are their own. You may be sensing a common theme here: to us what is ours, to them what is theirs. As long as each side in an equation continues to respect that notion, there is no need for conflict or meddling.
Temba Ronin
#78 - 2014-02-18 20:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Temba Ronin
Candi LeMew wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
The time is now to push back the Caldarian aggressors.

As a born and raised Federal citizen who was abandoned by her own family and received no aid or mercy from her own government I find your statement somewhat terrifying.

Had it not been for a noble State patriot and her family taking me under their wing I'd likely be dead by now. Makes you wonder what price the Federation's citizens truly pay for what they perceive as "freedom". The only time I ever saw evidence of "democracy" was as I sat malnourished and homeless on the street, dozens walking past me on their way to 'vote' without giving a single ****.

Be wary of what, or whom, you fight for Mister Vorpalstar. I know who I fight for and I know exactly why - a debt to an Achuran family that I can never truly repay.
A cowards life is always hard, second only to the vile existence of a lying traitor.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Temba Ronin
#79 - 2014-02-18 20:49:14 UTC
Sadie Veerin wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Jace Sarice wrote:
Of all the tasks which we have to face, the noblest and most sacred for humankind is that each nation must preserve its own traditions and way of life. All human failures and mistakes are due to the conditions of the time and the people involved, but there is one error which cannot be remedied so easily by replacing those who have made it, namely the failure to recognize the importance of conserving your own way of life in the face of those who would pressure you to give up that which makes you a part of your people.
So you favor the continuance of slavery because it is the amarr tradition? Consider that that nation's tradition seeks to one day make slaves of the entire cluster. Think of the real consequences of what you say even if the sound is sweet to your own ears and ego.


Despite our own moral distaste of slavery, it is not our place to tell the Amarr how to exist. Their culture, traditions, and existence are their own. You may be sensing a common theme here: to us what is ours, to them what is theirs. As long as each side in an equation continues to respect that notion, there is no need for conflict or meddling.
You are fit to be their ally, good luck when they enslave your people.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#80 - 2014-02-18 21:04:39 UTC
So many self-appointed prophets these days....

-Eran