Intergalactic Summit

It seems that is what it is going to take to end this. What does it matter if the deaths of hundreds of millions comes now or over the course of the war? And, as a bonus, we get another monument to the horror and futility of war to ignore.

When it was said by a gallentean, it is not a sarcasm. It is their true intentions, that they would like to represent as sarcasm.

There have been many opinions, views and positions expressed in this discussion. Many have merit, but most have been expressed before. Many agree that peace between the Federation and the State is the rational and right choice… but only if “we”, whomever we happens to be, wins.

The opinion expressed by Ma’dame Suorsa epitomizes best why peace is impossible.


Since the “Evacuation” of Luminaire VII… Caldari Prime if you will,,, and the initial “occupation” by the Federation, its population demographic has become largely Gallente with a smaller native Caldari population.

Considering the States treatment of the Federal population during their latest conquest, can you rationally expect the Federation to abandon its citizenry or to allow them to be ruled by a hostile power who recognizes no other way than their own.

Yes, join me, together we can bring 'freedom' and 'liberty' to the cluster by raining death down apon all who oppose us! *evil laughter goes here*

I'd missed your response. My apologies. I think a little digression is in order to clarify matters related to the above mentioned transition. I agree that there must be compromise on both ends, but I'm not sure you completely understand just how far Tuulinen-haan's proposal really reaches. Caldari are not born into citizenship, but rather are wards of the State as a whole. We earn, as part of our completion of primary education, a single share within the corporation we are a part of. That share is a voting right. No more, no less. Further, it is relatively rare for a Caldari to change their corporate affiliation, because doing so requires us to convert from one corporate financial standard to another, or straight to the ISK standard, almost always at a loss.

What this means in terms of Pieters proposal is, effectively, a free sixteen year head start, an immediate say in the affairs of their government, equal placement among us without the same requirement to prove themselves beforehand, and money in pocket. It also immediately entitles them to education, health care, and the right to work their way up the ladder, which includes purchasing more shares, which in turn will give them even greater say in affairs around them. In short, its an unheard of entitlement, given freely to ease matters on the material end.

Now, I understand your concern regarding the rights of these people. Really, I do. I employ a number of Gallente within my support staff, and it's always just a little awkward getting them settled in, but far from impossible. The reality of the matter is that, so long as they put forth effort to fit in in public, nobody cares what they do behind closed doors. Furthermore, it's an accepted fact that such individuals often bring interesting niche professions with them. I personally can attest to more than a few foreign nationals who make a good living as chefs, entertainers, and artists, professions we don't engage in as much. Only the more close minded groups automatically count out newcomers without giving them the chance to prove their worth, unlike the common portrayal of the "intolerant Caldari" being a majority.

Individual rights are, in fact, in place as much for us as for anyone, albeit for a different reason; make too many of your shareholders mad, and you'll find yourself quickly stripped of position. Hence, the ownership of shares by individual citizens. A citizen of the State is as free to do as they please as they can afford, provided they do not seek to upset the balance as a whole. I imagine it's not an alien concept, really, doing as you please in your private life and doing as expected in public? Everywhere has their bigots, no matter where you go, but by and large, anyone who carries their weight and doesn't make waves for no reason will find acceptance.

On the issue of those living on Home who don't wish to become State citizens... You know what, I can live with that. As I've said, we still have foreign elements among us. If it eases the road to get past this, fine, let them stay. They simply would not have the same entitlements as full citizens (entitlements and rights being considered separately in this case), and would need to make arrangements for their own prosperity, which probably wouldn't be too difficult in a business environment, especially dead center in the Federation. Import-export operations, exotic services and dealers of commodities. Those on Caldari Prime are in a unique position to make it work in their favor, even if the State controlled the planet in it's entirety, because of the simple fact that it would still be surrounded by Federation space, laws, and culture, which they would be uniquely suited to act as a bridge for in numerous endeavours, simultaneously freeing us from the headache. Believe me, that's something ANY Caldari would be grateful for.

I assume your comment is referencing Federal citizens living in Caldari districts on Caldari Prime?

Or is your reference more global?

Oh and young lady, take it form a “fool”, civility matters and words have costs.

I learned that lesson the hard way.

In order...
Did you ever ask a specific question of me? If so, I missed it. Please restate it and I shall answer to the best of my ability. If it's in regards to the expectations listed regarding Federal citizens, then please see the longer post that follows. Compromise is necessary by the very location of the planet in question, with only the most obstinate on both sides still pushing for an immediate all or nothing solution.

The reference is associated with the extreme case of Federal citizens (or any citizens, really) living on a Caldari Prime controlled entirely by the State. A hypothetical at this point. The reply could be applied to any similar instance of a foreign presence on ones planet which wishes to remain foreign, while remaining there. More specifically, and less theoretically, on a national scale, there still are a minority of foreigners who have gainful employment within the State.

As for the "fool" reference, you seem to want to take it as if it were an accusation, when I'd specifically stated I've never viewed you as such. I can't help if you choose to take offense after turning my words upside down, but perhaps it simply didn't get across as intended. If it was at all unclear, there you are; I've never taken you for a fool. If I did, I'd not bother speaking to you at all. It's not some weak attempt at word play on my part, but rather, a very literal statement and expectation from one intelligent individual to another that you know as well as I that the particular topic has been beaten to death by both sides, and a rehash isnt worth my time, or yours.

I'm starting to be in the "give it to someone else" camp. Neither Caldari nor Gallente seem to deseve it.

When my cousin and I couldn't share the stuffed fedo-bear my uncle got for us, we nearly tore it in two. My uncle gave it away the next day to a neighborhood kid we made fun of. He made his point.

-Eran

No, it won't. It's smack in the middle of the Federation. If the Caldari leave, somebody will want it back down the road. If the Federation leaves, same story, different actors. One side says it's theirs because we started there. The other side says it's theirs by conquest and settlement. Both have a bunch of idiots crowing how right they are, normally by using the old "he started it" argument from two centuries ago.

No, until heads are pulled out of *****, and people figure out that times have changed, nothing that happens will last. My own opinion on the matter aside (you don't want me solving this folks...), its a touchy situation that could turn into a unique opportunity if played right. The first to get down off their high horse and deal will be the ones who get that opportunity. Right now, that's Ishukone and whatever elements of the Fed Senate they're negotiating with. And what is that opportunity? Put simply, commerce. A foothold in the most diverse economy out there. Not a bad motivator for anyone who can move past the weight of their ego, suck it up, and start talking, is it? And oh yeah... Did I mention that Cal Primes main industry is mining? That it's packed with yummy ores? See the connection?

Oh... And let's give the "patriots" (u-nat asshats, not to be confused with real patriots) on both sides a rifle, drop em in the mud, and put their conviction to the test without the benefits of never being a permanent statistic... I'd bet money that those tunes would change real fast.

If there's similar disputes on those other homeworlds where those involved refuse to live in a multi-cultural environment, then sure. By no means should bigotry rule anywhere.

-Eran