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Intergalactic Summit

 
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FOR THE FEDERATION !!!

Author
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#181 - 2014-02-20 07:05:28 UTC
Ms. Gesakaarin,

I said this right after the part you quoted so perhaps you missed it. I'll say again : I do not believe in inherent rights.

Regarding the rest of what you said about laws and rights only being enforceable through violence, I'm afraid we will continue to disagree.

Speaking to your example, despite being unarmed there are other non-violent ways to which I could maintain possession. Reasoning with someone is a good start. Despite this, should they disregard my right to the jacket does not invalidate such a right. To say otherwise would suggest that the Gallente had rights to your homeworld when they took it by force.

I hope you understand what I'm getting at here. Unfortunately I'm tired and require rest. I hope to continue the discussion later as I find it both important and interesting.

Regards,
-Eran
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#182 - 2014-02-20 07:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Eran Mintor wrote:

And thank you Diana for contributing nothing useful, as always.

You are most welcome, kind sir.
<<< Block button is that way.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#183 - 2014-02-20 07:08:21 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Eran Mintor wrote:
Well if there are other viable options then I am all for their pursuit. I don't see compensation addressing the core problem as I explained, however I don't particularly care if I'm right or wrong, just that it gets resolved.


Peace is always a compromise on the use of force and is premised upon whether or not belligerents find it in their interests to no longer prosecute continued conflict. The current conflict between the State and Federation is far more complex than matters related to Caldari Prime although it is symbolic of certain factors.


Peace is not a compromise but a realization that a neverending war is detrimental to survival.

Now I really must go.

-Eran
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#184 - 2014-02-20 07:39:59 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:

I agree with the critics that The Federation isn't perfect. I will not deny the existence of the drug laden slums, the disease ridden prostitutes, nor the multitude of the homeless and down-trodden. While it may be easy for some to lay the blame at the feet of those who are less fortunate, it is a societal problem as a whole.


Sir, your Roden- and Blaque-sponsored reeducation team will be arriving momentarily.


My loyalty belongs to The Federation and the pillars of freedom and justice, not to any Politician or Political Bloc.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#185 - 2014-02-20 07:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
Diana Kim wrote:
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
what amazes me is that the Federation doesn't simply use that need to broker a deal for Caldari Prime that keeps the State quiet for centuries, paying it.


I'm curious what you mean by "paying it". Both sides have lost things dear to them, atrocities committed by both sides. Are you suggesting the Federation start paying Caldari to evacuate Federation citizens?

Even without payment I am always glad to help to "evacuate" gallentean occupants from Caldari worlds.
In body bags.


Extreme voices such as, Ms. Kim's are what give rise to threatening factions within the State. This is what we must be eternally vigilant, on guard against. This is what we must be prepared to defeat, and preemptively ready to strike.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#186 - 2014-02-20 09:13:46 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:


Extreme voices such as, Ms. Kim's are what give rise to threatening factions within the State. This is what we must be eternally vigilant, on guard against. This is what we must be prepared to defeat, and preemptively ready to strike.


I find it difficult to believe one could be threatened by anyone so lacking in any real authority, talent, ability, or personal charisma that they're reduced to angry rants filled with incoherent logic, empty posturing, and laughable bravura in public as cover for their own gross inadequacies to the point they actually manage the feat of being a living parody and caricature of a human being.

Do you seek to wage war against the figments of your own imagination, now?

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2014-02-20 09:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryen Verrisai
In regards to the peaceful resolution of Caldari Prime, I must disagree with Mr. Mintor's specific assertion that cohabitation is the only option for peace, in spite of the fact that I believe he and I are of one spirit when it comes to the larger issues involved in the matter.

Caldari citizens like Mr. Tuulinen, Ms. Suorsa, and others have displayed time and time again that the will of the Caldari to claim sole ownership and sovereignty of Caldari Prime is strong. Their loathing of the Federation (as a political body, if not literally every single person within it) is longstanding and well cultivated. And the Caldari way, as Ms. Suorsa very elegantly expounded upon, has always been to serve the interests of the Caldari above all others at all times. Because of this, and despite my generally optimistic mindset, I can't help but believe that long term peace via cohabitation is impossible.

The Caldari believe that Caldari Prime is theirs in full, and eventually they will try to claim it in full. In doing so, they will either deracinate the Federation population, forcibly assimilate it, or utterly annihilate it. Naturally, any such actions, save perhaps the first, can not be responded to peacefully. And the cycle of revenge that began centuries past will continue. The same holds true should the Federation attempt to claim the planet in full (as history has demonstrated).

Peace in the situation of Caldari Prime requires sacrifice, either on the part of the Caldari or on the part of the Federation. The Caldari culture, though certainly not some of its individuals, lacks the capacity to condone the needed sacrifice. And thus it falls onto the shoulders of the Federation citizens who call Caldari Prime home; in my mind the only chance for truly long-term peace between the State and the Federation is if the Federation residents of Caldari Prime can make the choice for themselves to leave their home behind, to make the sacrifice the Caldari can't in order to preserve lives on both sides.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#188 - 2014-02-20 10:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Bryen Verrisai wrote:

Peace in the situation of Caldari Prime requires sacrifice, either on the part of the Caldari or on the part of the Federation. The Caldari culture, though certainly not some of its individuals, lacks the capacity to condone the needed sacrifice.


I suppose sacrificing our dearest Gariushi-haan to one of your 'rogue' admirals and still having the fortitude to choose peace over war is not enough of a sacrifice? If only you had the slightest clue how much our choice to do that has been lambasted by the other Seven. We sacrificed much for that, for an end to the horrible desecration of our homeworld. Heth may have been willing to sear the surface of Home clean of all life in a tantrum, but we are not. You may think it is some easy choice for us to curl up on the same planet as you, but it is not. We suffer daily for it, but we do so because Otro Gariushi gave his life for it.

Do not be so quick to cast aside the Caldari people as a hate-filled warmongering race of sociopaths. We have honor, even if it escapes your individualistic comprehension.

We remember the man you killed, and we will suffer peace with you because it was his dying wish.

Katrina Oniseki

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#189 - 2014-02-20 10:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
In regards to the peaceful resolution of Caldari Prime, I must disagree with Mr. Mintor's specific assertion that cohabitation is the only option for peace, in spite of the fact that I believe he and I are of one spirit when it comes to the larger issues involved in the matter.

Caldari citizens like Mr. Tuulinen, Ms. Suorsa, and others have displayed time and time again that the will of the Caldari to claim sole ownership and sovereignty of Caldari Prime is strong. Their loathing of the Federation (as a political body, if not literally every single person within it) is longstanding and well cultivated. And the Caldari way, as Ms. Suorsa very elegantly expounded upon, has always been to serve the interests of the Caldari above all others at all times. Because of this, and despite my generally optimistic mindset, I can't help but believe that long term peace via cohabitation is impossible.

The Caldari believe that Caldari Prime is theirs in full, and eventually they will try to claim it in full. In doing so, they will either deracinate the Federation population, forcibly assimilate it, or utterly annihilate it. Naturally, any such actions, save perhaps the first, can not be responded to peacefully. And the cycle of revenge that began centuries past will continue. The same holds true should the Federation attempt to claim the planet in full (as history has demonstrated).

Peace in the situation of Caldari Prime requires sacrifice, either on the part of the Caldari or on the part of the Federation. The Caldari culture, though certainly not some of its individuals, lacks the capacity to condone the needed sacrifice. And thus it falls onto the shoulders of the Federation citizens who call Caldari Prime home; in my mind the only chance for truly long-term peace between the State and the Federation is if the Federation residents of Caldari Prime can make the choice for themselves to leave their home behind, to make the sacrifice the Caldari can't in order to preserve lives on both sides.

It must be nice to hear only the parts of what people say that please you and your singular agenda. I'll not waste my breath trying to correct yet another mouthpiece who has missed literally two thirds of what is, and was, time and again, said regarding the peace brokered so far on Caldari Prime, by the same Caldari you try and use in your sweeping generalization. Thankfully, yours is a voice that has no say in what will happen. Thank the Maker for small favors.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#190 - 2014-02-20 10:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
what amazes me is that the Federation doesn't simply use that need to broker a deal for Caldari Prime that keeps the State quiet for centuries, paying it.


I'm curious what you mean by "paying it". Both sides have lost things dear to them, atrocities committed by both sides. Are you suggesting the Federation start paying Caldari to evacuate Federation citizens?

Even without payment I am always glad to help to "evacuate" gallentean occupants from Caldari worlds.
In body bags.


Extreme voices such as, Ms. Kim's are what give rise to threatening factions within the State. This is what we must be eternally vigilant, on guard against. This is what we must be prepared to defeat, and preemptively ready to strike.

If you haven't figured it out yet... Kim stands alone. There isn't a one of us with two brain cells to rub together who supports her in any way.

Except maybe any remaining Dragonaurs. Please, kill all of those that you want... With blessings and smiles from this side of the line.

Do us all a favor on both sides, and make the same distinction that those of us with sense do between the frothing extremists, and people who don't have their heads buried somewhere in Reality Substitute 1.0.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#191 - 2014-02-20 11:03:25 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
...


Have I misread or missed important subtext in the post above, as I honestly do not see a great deal wrong with it? A mistake about our people’s willingness to sacrifice is the only issue I could take with it. That does not take away from the point; That the Caldari will not surrender their homeworld. I see nothing unduly hostile otherwise.
Erys Charantes
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2014-02-20 11:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Erys Charantes
I am now convinced that IQ's have dropped sharply...

Can someone actually explain how, by vociferously proclaiming that peace is not possible (after Ishukone, the Deksam that was, by far, the most affected by the murderous betrayal of a FEDERATION Admiral, came forth of their own accord to propose a settlement over Caldari Prime), and urging an escalation of the current war, which has accomplished exactly NOTHING LASTING for five years, will suddenly bring about everything that one side (and only that one side) desires?

As a friend of mine is fond of saying, "Propaganda makes for notoriously poor body armor.", a fact that proves itself time and again when all of the 'rah rah' in soapbox sessions like this actually come under fire... And nothing changes. More cogs in the machine, grinding away loudly as history goes and makes itself on the backs of those who endure true sacrifice. If you don't know what that is, go fly to Malkalen and see the mass grave of hundreds of thousands killed in cold blood, without rhyme or reason, by a man pushing his own agenda above all else.

It must be that much vaunted 'militia bravery' that I've heard of at work here, spreading one narrow vision of freedom, whose price to be heard will be paid by the lives of other people, and the lives of their sons and daughters, in the name of your brand of justice... While you, the messiah's of your own cause, come back time and again, never to make the final offering on the altar of your vision of what the Federation stands for.

This is where I usually urge someone to stop and think... But to do that, you'd have to actually think. Something that is becoming alarmingly rare in a nation that is supposedly founded on the principles of intelligent thought over brute force.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2014-02-20 12:35:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryen Verrisai
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Do not be so quick to cast aside the Caldari people as a hate-filled warmongering race of sociopaths. We have honor, even if it escapes your individualistic comprehension.

You've missed my point, or I did not communicate it clearly enough. Perhaps a little of both.

My previous statement was not as sweeping as you interpreted it to be; rather it is focused very acutely on a specific situation, that being the current state of Caldari Prime and the role it plays in the future of both the Federation and State.

The belief I hold is that the only resolution to the Caldari Prime problem which can result in long lasting peace and the protection of lives on both sides is if one side simply acquiesces and walks away. Either the Gallente or the Caldari must sacrifice Caldari Prime to ensure that peace will last between both. If not, one side will eventually try to take it all, and a lot of innocent people are going to pay the price for that.

The Caldari are completely and utterly incapable of making this necessary sacrifice. Your culture, your sense of honor, forbids this possibility. Asking the Caldari to abandon their Home for the sake of not only themselves but others, is like asking the Amarrians to abandon their God. Thus, it falls on the shoulders of the Federation citizens on Caldari Prime to bear the burden of that sacrifice. This is not an attempt by me to morally indict the Caldari, nor to glorify the Federation. It is simply an observation of fact.

And for the record, I've never thought the Caldari were sociopaths, or particularly warmongery (or at least not too much more so than anyone else).
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#194 - 2014-02-20 12:41:12 UTC
Peace with the Federation will remain an elusive dream when it is forgotten that men such as President Roden and Mentas Blaque created both their fortunes and their political careers in the Cold War climate where over a century of policies aimed at the military and economic containment of the Caldari State and the propagation of the perception that the Caldari are enemies through the use of media propaganda lead to an escalating arms race that strengthened the Federal Military-Industrial complex at taxpayer expense and the politics of nationalism, partisan patriotism, and the expansion of Federal government and control with the rationale and justification to combat the threat of the State.

Is the Caldari State a threat to the Federation? It is, but only to its businesses and corporations as direct competitors and it has always been those Federal companies that have had the vested interest to negate the threat posed by Caldari corporations. To deny the power and influence of Federal companies is to deny the power and influence of their lobbyists over the political process in the Federation, their control of capital and financial instruments, their ability to sway public opinions through the media apparatus they own, or the nature in which wealthy business leaders become politicians or the reverse in which politicians become wealthy business leaders to create the Federal oligarchy of its privileged, rich, elite.

The true dynamics of the present conflict thus remain the same as the initial conflict between the State and Federation: competing economic and corporate interests. The War of Independence was fought by the Caldari State due to a refusal to be forced to remain in an unequal economic and political framework that became apparent would be subverted and controlled by Gallentean companies to serve their own interests to the detriment of Caldari corporate autonomy and independence that its workers had enjoyed for centuries - even going so far as seeking to deny the right to Caldari self-determination in order to ensure servitude. However, the present conflict differs in that it directly benefits the Federal Military Industries that were created during the War of Independence and which require enemies - real or imagined - in order to survive in addition to those Cold Warriors who have built their careers and livelihoods fighting those enemies.

Now those companies lead by men such as Roden and those politicians such as Blaque have the war they have always wanted and the question remains if it is the war the citizens of the Federation truly wish to continue fighting.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2014-02-20 13:02:44 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Is the Caldari State a threat to the Federation? It is, but only to its businesses and corporations as direct competitors

With all due respect, if this were actually the case there would likely be no Caldari currently living on Caldari Prime.

Whether or not the State and Federation currently are or should be enemies, the fact remains that each one is a very credible, very present military threat to the other.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#196 - 2014-02-20 14:09:50 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Is the Caldari State a threat to the Federation? It is, but only to its businesses and corporations as direct competitors

With all due respect, if this were actually the case there would likely be no Caldari currently living on Caldari Prime.

Whether or not the State and Federation currently are or should be enemies, the fact remains that each one is a very credible, very present military threat to the other.


Such is the nature of arms races, yes.

Former President Foiritain and Gariushi-haan once sought to discuss the limitation of such a race between the State and Federation, but history became what it is and one is now deceased and the other deposed by the Federal military industry under current President Roden.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#197 - 2014-02-20 15:17:59 UTC
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
what amazes me is that the Federation doesn't simply use that need to broker a deal for Caldari Prime that keeps the State quiet for centuries, paying it.


I'm curious what you mean by "paying it". Both sides have lost things dear to them, atrocities committed by both sides. Are you suggesting the Federation start paying Caldari to evacuate Federation citizens?


I'm suggesting the Federation attach an isk-value to the transgressions of the secret colonies and to their 'claim' on Caldari Prime based on the two-hundred years of settlement and levy it upon the CEP. The Corporations then divvy out that claim to the various Okusaiken who start paying it to the Federation in installments.

Part of that claim would include a resettlement figure for each of the Federal citizens currently on Caldari Prime who would have their expenses plus something paid. Those Federal Citizens who would wish to remain should have both guaranteed employment and citizenship with one of the Okusaiken PLUS the purchase of some voting stock - making them automatic citizens. In other words, they would gain franchise in the State equal to that which they were giving up in the Federation.

Such a sum would, no doubt, require a couple of generations to settle in full. Paying it off could conceivably keep the State occupied gainfully during that period.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#198 - 2014-02-20 15:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
The payment of reparations to the Federation for a war fought as a just cause towards corporate autonomy and the self-determination of the Caldari people is probably a bridge too far to cross for the CEP especially considering the State never lost the war for independence achieved only at great expense of both blood and sacrifice.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#199 - 2014-02-20 16:06:53 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:

If you haven't figured it out yet... Kim stands alone. There isn't a one of us with two brain cells to rub together who supports her in any way.

Enough of this ignorant bile.
I stand with those, who daily defend Caldari space and Caldari peoples. Which you, unfortunately, are unable to do.

Probably you just miss said brain cells yourself, or you are just another reject of Caldari society... well, I doubt you ever was a real Caldari anyway.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#200 - 2014-02-20 16:09:44 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
The payment of reparations to the Federation for a war fought as a just cause towards corporate autonomy and the self-determination of the Caldari people is probably a bridge too far to cross for the CEP especially considering the State never lost the war for independence achieved only at great expense of both blood and sacrifice.


I'm suggesting this less as an admission of wrongs that need to be redressed and more as a new sacrifice for the Caldari peoples that balances the one the Federation would need to make. Reciprocity.

We are just as capable of enduring the undendurable as our ancestors and, at the end of the day, the cost should be measured not against any moral outrage, but against the reality of Home and it's value to our people.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.