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Active Tanking (CCP, please read)

First post
Author
Commander Spurty
#121 - 2011-11-14 10:37:12 UTC
Oh cool, like this idea. Will buy 5 curses.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

M1AU
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2011-11-14 11:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: M1AU
In my humble opinion there is one thing that many overlook. There is no viable support career to take from the early beginning.

In EVE there are only the T2 Logistics ships and Carriers which fit the support role accordingly. The T1 ships which are supposed to fit in this role are somehow lucking in it's performance, even in the early game.

Making it possible to go the support role from the early beginning, that is frig sized remote repping, could bring these very interesting role into the hands of more players and therefor making active tanking as we know it less viable, which is not that bad as it sounds like.
Actually when I started playing EVE a few years ago I always thought why's there no support role to pick? That's maybe because I so loved to play a Monk in Guild Wars but it's not really comparable. Nevertheless the impression there should be a viable support career stayed and it should be way more used in small scale PVP and PVE as it does right now.

I'm sure not everyone shares my opinion, but that at least could be one way to engage this issue. Make more usable support ships.
Daedalus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2011-11-14 12:10:47 UTC
How about letting armor repairers "absorb" half the incoming damage at all times while active, while keeping the repair ability, but at half effect.

This would result that in low damage scenarios (small gang pvp and pve) the active repair half would be the prevalent part allowing you to have a sustainable tank.
While in high damage scenarios (large blob pvp) the absorption half would be the prevalent part allowing you to have extended survivability (but not sustainable).
StukaBee
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2011-11-14 16:15:41 UTC
Xavier Quo wrote:
how about a new kind of energized plating that turns a percentage of incoming damage into cap?


The internet spaceship equivalent of KERS, you mean? Could possibly work.

You'd need to greatly increase the effectiveness of armour reps for it to matter though (massively decrease the cycle time, perhaps), no point sustaining a full capacitor if you run out of hitpoints just the same as before.
Ma'kal
Ni Industries
Eternal Requiem
#125 - 2011-11-14 17:38:37 UTC
It would be really nice to see a mechanics change about active tanking. It is too bad that right now it is useless. I really like the idea that it should be good in the short term but fail long term. Which it is kind of set up for right now, but it just mitigates too little damage.
Lin Fatale
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2011-11-14 17:52:00 UTC
just saying
the old RR BS fleets were a lot of fun
boost rr range and cap usage
and nerf logis Evil

would change the game a lot, you would have to count on every member in fleet and not only on your logi blob
this would also be a ninja boost for ewar in big fights = bs easier to jam and you can jam dps and rr
which could maybe a nerf for one shiptype only fleets

sry for beeing a bit ot
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#127 - 2011-11-14 18:30:49 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The way you'd probably want to deal with a charge-driven repairer is to give it a really long reload time.

Another option is to use the heat system, but it's not hugely user-friendly and ends up with your reps being burnt out which is less cool.


Hmm.. you sound like you are being too conservative in your fixes. Active tank (for pvp) sucks hard and needs a lot of love. It would make EvE a more dynamic and unpredictable place.

But anyways, this thread has some interesting and useful ideas.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
Siberian Squads
#128 - 2011-11-14 18:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
CCP Greyscale, once again you're talking about something you weren't asked at all in the first place.

As already pointed out, no one was complaining about how active tanks scales to blob-warfare. We could care less about this crap.

What is really an issue is the fact that it's often better to use buffer tank than active one in small-scale PvP, too! Can you imagine how stupid current game must be if it makes this possible? That's just like meeting an active-tanked ship in blob-warfare occasionally. Does it ever happen (outside capitals) ? No. Everyone will agree an active-tanked ship stands no chance whatsoever in large-scale combat. While at the same time it's perfectly fine to slam in several fugly shield extenders (or plates) and go rocking in small-scale PvP. WTF?

There's a crapload of issues with active vs passive tanks in general - and they have absolutely NOTHING to do with the scalability you mentioned.

As stated:
- plates use too few MWs. 1600mm plate for mere 500 MWs? Really?
- so are shield extenders which - on top of prodiving huge EHP boost - don't even slow you down.

Make overtanked ships slower - add velocity penalty for shield extenders!

On top of that:

- tanking rigs use only 50 calibration points and aren't stacking penalized. WTF?
- passive tanking mods like plates and shield extenders cost NO ISK - they're basically FREE

Instead you must create such a system, where only certain amount of invested isk may get you proper level of EHP - just like it is with active tanking. Tech2 active tank is a joke.

So cut current EHP bonuses of plates and extenders by, say, 1/3 and introduce deadspace plates/extenders which will actually COST SOME ISK and provide the same bonuses as current tech2.

Make it fair.

It's high time you've utilized JUSTICE.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#129 - 2011-11-14 19:00:17 UTC
Simple change to active tank ship bonuses, that would make them far more usable:

Change '7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repairers per level' to '7.5% reduction to duration and capacitor use of armor repairers per level'.

Not ground breaking, but a simple change that will make active tanking far more user-friendly, and a bit easier on the capacitor too.

Combine this with all the other worthy balances that active tanking needs.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2011-11-14 19:01:00 UTC
What about the armor repair bonus applies to incoming repairs as well? Then it keeps its decent bonus for small scale combat where fitting a personal repair module does well AND when in larger scale combat where fitting a buffer tank is best, the incoming repairs for logistics will be for a higher amount.
Taint
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#131 - 2011-11-14 19:42:48 UTC
Josefius wrote:
TL;DR

IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2011-11-14 19:57:33 UTC
Opertone wrote:
it normally works this way with NPCs

they do more damage, you loose hitpoints, you kill some of them, your ship is stable, pocket cleared, you rep back up or let your shield recharge.

Your active tank is not meant to block the incoming damage, yet it helps you regain hit points in the short break between assaults.

Active tank does not suck in PvP, actually smart 'pilots' know that it's best to kill one by one, leaving no survivers, and to reduce enemy forces. Thus skilled pilots focus fire and break tanks. If everybody attacked his own target, like in space films (i.e. one on one engagement despite large numbers) active tanking could mean more.

One on one fights in a huge battle are not possible because of the warp drive, the enemy can engage warp drive at any time. Remember that warp drive does not exist in space films (or has very limited use).

If your survivability only depended on your orbiting and thrusters, then hell yes, you avoid 30 foes, and tank some 2 on your tail.

But in eve it is an 18th century warfare... line up, shoot, await outcome. Fleet on fleet duel, whole fleet primaries one target, then switches to another. And mainly because you can not chase an enemy, 250 km play box and if they get out of range, they warp, so it is useless to pick individual targets.

If warp drive was not operational while guns are active - PvP would totally rock and become a commitment. Imagine a 60 second cool down between gun activation and warp engine readiness.

You shoot, you get your fight, but you have to take it, leaving the enemy an option to snipe or follow
.


TL;DR But this post jumped out at me. I really like this for both PVE and PVP and it makes sense to me on a number of levels. It changes almost every dynamic for combat in EVE.

That being said I buffer and then slap a rep on in PVE to mitigate the damage taken and stretch my tank out while soloing in WHs and I can see the OPs perspective here, however. IMO Small Gang, Big Fleet, whatever, when you are primary you should die. Concentration of fire is a sound tactic in this game becuase its a sound tactic everywhere. The only way to overcome it is to buff active tanking to an unbalanced degree. I feel like OP wants his ship to be able to survive being a primary and in most cases that isn't nor should it be, possible.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#133 - 2011-11-14 20:56:32 UTC
make armor repairs faster, and adjust cap repair and cap usage thereafter

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2011-11-14 20:58:53 UTC
I 100% support the OP.

My Slepnir needs a buff

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2011-11-14 21:09:09 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
make armor repairs faster, and adjust cap repair and cap usage thereafter


and fitting requirement.


SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#136 - 2011-11-14 22:25:07 UTC
IGNATIUS HOOD wrote:
I feel like OP wants his ship to be able to survive being a primary and in most cases that isn't nor should it be, possible.



If you're talking about me, well, re-read my posts.

I only want active tanking not to be a massive pain in the butt to fit on a ship (With still having a warpscrambler and propmod :/), I want active tanked setups not to run out of cap in 2mns because you run out of capboosters, I want active tanked setups to actually do what they are supposed to do => If the ennemy does too little DPS, he can't break the tank, period.

They are already easy to defeat, since they are mostly solo ships. You can jam them, damp them, neut them, tracking disrupt them, everything that completely break one's ability to do damage/tank. Vs a fleet, except if you have a huge amount of EW, it just wont work much.

Quote:
IMO Small Gang, Big Fleet, whatever, when you are primary you should die. Concentration of fire is a sound tactic in this game becuase its a sound tactic everywhere.


Exactly, if you're primary you should die.

Depends on what's shooting at you.

If CCP implement my changes, it won't radically break the balancing. It will just be easier for active tanked ships to active tank, nothing else (Well, actually, it might buff a little bit the active tank regen with the built-in resistances for peoples who only want to tank. It will allow other peoples to fit one additionnal medslot, for shield tanked ships, or one additionnal lowslot for armor tanked ships).
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom
Best Alliance
#137 - 2011-11-15 01:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Korvin
TBH, I like the overheating boost idea.
The issue with active tank in small scale PVP (not lagre alpha fleets) is that you just have 1 or 2 cycles available with your repairer, before you die.

1600 rolled plate gives you +4200 armor in this case, but perfect t2 large armor repairer gives you 800 per cycle, so if you lucky to have 2 cycles before you dead or drained, you'll get 1600 armor in that 25 seconds.
(Just a simple situation, your Brutix appeared in a gatecamp against 5 hurricanes, each has 2 med neuts and 6 autocannons, so 1-2 rep cycles and goodbye)

Boost overheat is a good idea, maybe you can make it better making passive resist modules with a bigger hp, so they won't burn out for sure, before armor repairer burns out. Plus overheat can also reduce activation cost if you drained. So If you out of cap and there is more than you can tank - overheat, get your 3500-4000 armor within 2 cycles, return to the normal mode or get another overheated cycle and your rep burned off.

And yes, bigger overheating buttons please.

Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8

Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2011-11-15 02:45:34 UTC
Regardless of if you like it or not, EHP is essential. Not amount of reps will save you if alpha'ed
Saying don't make them use HP because its too homogeneous is like saying the human race is too homogeneous because we all breath oxygen! :)

How about this:

When a repper/booster runs (local only not remote), it adds to the TOTAL shields/armour as well as current. After 2 cycles (numbers to change via testing) the extra total HP drops off.
The total after boosting should bring it to just below that of a buffer fit, but with the advantage of repping, but it now also has sufficient buffer to stand up to alphas and will be harder to take down from sustained fire-power due to it's local reps. May need to also make it so the ship bonus affects remote repping as well but to a smaller degree (2.5% per level incoming reps?)

May want to combine this with a increase in cycle time on reppers, maybe slightly less cap consumptive, but restoring less per minute in slower cycles so they aren't overpowered in small group combat where they are already very powerful, might also make lvl 4s a bit more of a challenge again ;)

-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more) 

Sanguine Belroth
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2011-11-15 05:21:07 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Am I the only one here who feels like this is kind of a non-issue? Active tanking works perfectly fine on the ships that are bonused for it. It has its drawbacks - neuts destroy it, cap boosters must be managed, vulnerability to alpha, PG and CPU compromise DPS output, etc etc. But in the end, if you're tank exceeds incoming DPS, you're golden. There SHOULD be some drawbacks to what can be, potentially, god mode.

Anyone thinking active tanking is useless or broken should fly a triple-rep myrm. Or a XL-boosted Cyclone (with crystals and drugs). Or a Maelstrom. A maelstrom can tank an entire enemy gang, multiple BC's and BS's at a time. Dual rep fleet stabbers are boss too.

Active tanking is a challenge - it requires careful tweaking and even more careful piloting and cap management - but when done right, you are effectively invincible....for a period of time. I really think it should stay the way it is, giving arbirtrary 25% resistances and such would lead to some insane situations pretty quickly. Same with cap boosters - there's a very good reason they're so big. If you could run them forever, you'd be invincible forever.

Just my .02 isk.


I tend to agree with this above. When running solo, your DPS is generally gimped when running an active tank. But going up against a similar buffer ship. With the cyclone and trip repped myrm -they simply can't kill you.
Myrm and Cyclone dont need to be better.

Active tank in large gangs, is called remote rep. use your buffer tank to soak up damage, while the rest of your battle bro's gets RR on you. Thats scaling of active tank.
Black Dranzer
#140 - 2011-11-15 05:26:57 UTC
Frankly I think the main issue is the mid/low shield/armor dichotomy.

If anything, it should be a mid/low active/passive dichotomy. Shield extenders on lows. Armour reps on mids.