Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This is why I think that local is too comprehensive, but not evil in itself.

The level it would be reasonable to downgrade it to would not impair it's functioning with the sort of effort that goes into using it as an intel tool now. You would just set the bots to dock at a certain threshold of population rather than run on neuts or reds.

I see the minimum the local channel would provide would be population, with it being easily interrogated for further information. Depending on ship type it might be needed to get within several AU to tell what it is, and on grid to tell who it is unless the ship was broadcasting that information intentionally, as would be the case in SOV space occupied by it's own residents. Anytime Local pop was over the number of blues in system you get the same effect you get now.

I'm still sort of lost on how much effort is enough effort, and what exactly is free about the intel from local.

The only thing local provides is a name. It doesn't tell me where someone entered and where they came from, or where in the system they are. Doesn't indicate what ship they are flying or how it is equipped. And it doesn't say anything about the intruder's intentions. Any information on them being an ally or enemy has to be set on the player's end already. Like, I can set everyone to be green or blue, or even set my own corporation to red.


I already have to expend effort to find out any other details. I have to right-click on the name in local to get the player's employment history. I have to sit on the gate or wormhole they came through to see what they are flying. If I want advanced notice of which entrance they will pass through, I need other players or a lot of alts watching neighboring systems or probing down wormholes as they spawn. I have to go look them up on killboards to see if they are a good PvP'er, or a bad one, or just some one who likes to ninja-plex. I have to set out bait or form up a fleet to trap them to find out what their ship's capabilities are.


I'm skeptical about changing local to delayed mode while buffing d-scan or adding sov upgrades, POS mods, or other deployable, doing anything to change nullsec dynamics. Pretty much every plan that gets cooked up can just lead to "fix local" threads being replaced with "fix (what ever replaced local)". If the improved D-scan updates automatically, wouldn't that be "free" too? Placing the D-scan window in a prominent position and watching it like a hawk isn't really that different from resizing the local window. If that name in local is now provided by a sov upgrade or POS module, and everyone installs it, what is the difference?

Most of the other valuable intel to swing fights one way or the other has to be gained through player effort already. Removing the name from local really doesn't change that. And if you just don't like local on principle, nothing is stopping you from moving to w-space. Just don't be surprised when you find w-space filled with its own breed of carebear, spamming D-scan and closing wormoles to shut out hostiles.

This is probably the biggest misconception about changing local. Speaking from experience in wh space, the hunter may have an advantage as far as being just a little harder to spot, but he is also at much great risk. The knife cuts both ways in this case. Not only is it harder for you to see what is out there, it's equally as hard for the hunter to see what might be waiting. I cannot count the number of times I've been baited. It's a fantastic experience all the way around.

Now, I understand that simply applying the wh space local to null won't work. You have infinite mass/stable entrances into system, on top of having cynos. However, you cannot argue that null local in it's current form provides a massive safety blanket to bears,botters, and anyone who wants to avoid pvp. This is supposed to be 0.0 security space. Lets make it as such.

*shortened quotes for my brevity*

So Yes too Mr. Wong, you are lost. Most people who are npc'ing rely solely on the name popping up in local for intel as a manner of getting out of an anom (or at least aligning). As to the rest of it...they warp to a tower or station regardless of ship type as a safety measure. Those that don't are usually not paying attention anyhow. The intruders intentions are always assumed to be hostile even if in reality he/she is passing through. Any standings info in sov space is set at the alliance level. If you have separate standings and have adjusted priorities on your overview...well thats all well and good for you. That however has nothing to do with whether local is delayed or not.

As for carebears collapsing wormholes; you have no idea how many wormholes there are in space. No idea. I'll bet within 3 jumps in any direction you have a minimum of 3-5 wormholes. Some will be direct Null > Null, others will be to some W-space and others still will be Null > Low or Null > High sec. Many of these have a Maximum mass of 3 Billion KG...which it takes about 3 capital ships to collapse.

Regardless of collapsing, new wormholes can spawn at any time, or be opened up by those in lower class W-space (c3 and under) that have a Null Sec Static. They can roll those holes until they get one in a region they want.

To Mr. Voidstar,

D-Scan works fine, though the interface could use some work. Local intel does not have to be replaced with anything if it goes into delayed mode. I however am in-favor of sov blocs having the ability to upgrade a specific system with an ihub upgrade to get it back as instant. It should be costly...similar to what having a cyno jammer upgrade active costs. Heck couple it with a POS mod that can be disabled (killed) and that is even better.

The reason for this: Make null more fun for people who are in sub-sov fleets. Provide objectives and targets that will force the residents to fight back. So to maintain your instant local...if my gang of 10-20 Ishtars disables (incaps) your pos mod that corresponds with said upgrade...suddenly local chat is now 60 sec delayed. I can get more people in without you knowing. Heck they can get in and log off or black ops cyno in and log off and you'd never know.

The point is to get you to undock and fight and also to encourage residents to live in the space they hold. Deklein doesn't have a big problem with resident life but many other regions do. #dronelands, #cloudring, #renterspace. Local changes as part of an overall sov rules change is in order. This all goes well with the idea of empires losing control to capsuleers in an RP sense. Less CONCORD monitoring of local channels means slower updates.

I'd rather keep it a simple timed delay on updating. Just means every local is moderated as an attribute

You sure have some strange opinions. You should guard your mining vessels while they mine. Even mining is a PvP activity. It can turn into one at any time and it should. You have other options by the way than D-scan. You can have a corp member keep cloaky eyes in adjacent system(s) or simply eyes on whatever gates you have in system. The same applies to wormholes btw. you can (with the right skills) do missions in a pvp fit boat and if you're doing low sec or null missions you are always in a pvp setting. If you are doing missions in high sec during a war dec or mis-click the duel offering or do something no matter how inadvertently to cause yourself to become suspect...then you deserve it.

EVE uses a sandbox model not a Predator/Victim (nice language choice there btw you'd make a good state propagandist) model. Also it would be Predator/Prey if you wanted to be correct with language. Anyhow PvP is never meant to be balanced in all cases. People get suicide ganked all the time in both 'pvp' and 'pve' ships. In-fact the common mistake people like you make is that there is PvE at all as an isolated system in game.

The only systems that are secured at all against this are the newbie starter systems. That is in the EULA and not a game mechanic and is widely regarded as a good move. CCP has steadfastly refused to extend that protection to the rest of high sec and for good reason. No one here is suggesting that local be taken completely away...hell it exists in w-space if you decide to use it to type.

It should be taken away so people such as yourself will learn to adapt. So you need a couple extra people to watch your back in a system? Who cares. If you mine in a bubbled dead end system and don't have any kind of intel in the form of alts or fellow members watching out for your operation then the aggressor should have a chance at catching you. Short of infiltrating your corp/alliance/massive blue list there are few ways to catch a group such as yours. Perhaps a well timed log-on trap and EVE skunk via a traitor to watch your internal EVE mails might work. Again all of this is allowed, but I'd rather not HAVE to join your corp or alliance to kill you.

K thx bye.

There is no such thing as a pve ship.

Example:

Raven: You may fit it with or without regards to PvP.

Skiff: The same you may fit additional warp core stabilizer or maximize for mining throughput.

Mining barges can fit combat drones - in a group those drones can kill off light tackle effectively.

Orca: can use combat drones - be fit with significant shield and structure tanks (fun to bait with for pvp but expensive)

Rorqual: Capital class shield tank - hilarious bait and sometimes smart to avoid a skilled pilot with back up.

No you don't see Orca fleets or Rorqual or even barge fleets because they are meant to be specialized for other activities. However they are PvP capable ships and have often been used as part of a trap quite effectively.

What are you smoking. The scout would use his eyeballs and see ships landing at your in-gate. Not local. Maybe if you're in a pipe you sit the scout 2 or 3 jumps out so you have even more time.

I didn't over-simplify jack squat I just gave you an answer you don't like. No ships are created with the idea of instant local in mind. The model is sandbox...that means PvP is non-consensual no matter what. It is clear to me you have exactly zero experience in anything except being the target of ganks. You must wake up with visions of bloody mist and miner corpses littering the space-scape like so much a post-apocalyptic horror scene.

So yes you get around the local issue quite easily if you have half a brain. my lord I'm starting to think that CCP spoiled miners with barges and rorquals and orcas. **back in the day** we used to slap on a full rack of t2 miners on our apocalypse battleships and mine in a belt. We didn't have any fancy anomalies! We didn't have meta-ores. We were lucky if we had Harvester mining drones and a skilled iteron mk V pilot!.

We'd sit in a low sec belt mining and have combat drones and people to assist us if someone tried to come in and steal our precious bodily fluids erm...ore. Seriously if you're having trouble just harden the "F" up. (HTFU - also a song by the CCP band, Permaband). It isn't just an abstract concept...its a motto and part of the design philosophy of EVE.

*tightens onion belt and walks up hill both ways in a blizzard*

correct-amundo with one caveat.

- I'd allow an upgrade for FW space similarly though with limited duration like the cyno jamming

You have a good point.

So, why don't we focus on playing the more interesting parts over the tedious time sinks.
While we are at it, keep in mind that a good chunk of PvE is a mindless time sink, which could be streamlined or at least made more interesting.

I suggest having people show up to shoot at you, and giving you a positive incentive to want to shoot back at them.
I suggest pilot skill be the major factor, followed by equipment and number of other pilots involved.
We are fussing over stealthed second rate combat ships showing up, and effectively defenseless PvE ships running because they too often are outclassed by anything not designed for PvE.

Let's make these two, the stealthy flying pricetags and the slowboating income generators, fight each other on even terms.
Neither is expected to stand up to a front line PvP ship, but why they should endlessly chase each other into a cycle of stalemating frustration seems pointless.

Let the stealthed guy catch the PvE guy, but have the PvE guy be happy about it just as much too.

I showed up to play a game, not want to run from it because my ship can't seriously earn while being in fighting form.

TL:DR; The real problem is that PvE ships can't fight back, so have a standing incentive to avoid playing anything but the time sink aspect.