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Dev Blog: Alliance Logos & You - Clarification on submissions

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Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#181 - 2014-02-14 17:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
ZergRushJohnny wrote:
I'm amazed at how many lawyers are in Eve Online! I had no idea it was the majority of the player base!



As a doctor it makes me terribly uncomfortable.

Although:

If CCP starts to claim rights to our biological property, I'll be happy to chime in.
Darius JOHNSON
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2014-02-14 17:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Darius JOHNSON
CCP Falcon wrote:


This is part of why we need to have ownership of the logos. Our legal team are currently reading over this thread, and will be giving some responses as soon as possible.

For the record, I'm in a position where I've also uploaded an Alliance logo in the past, and have actively sold Alliance themed merchandise in the past as a player.

I can completely understand the concerns here, and the community team will continue to work with legal to make sure that your concerns are heard. Smile



You don't NEED ownership of anything. Stop saying things that aren't true as if they are. Let your lawyers reply if you have to. As it stands your lawyers should know that nobody who matters is going to give up their rights so let that factor into your long term decisions. Nobody likes a bully or a liar. It's really easy not to be either.

:edit: Also, unless you think your customers are universally morons you can go ahead and shred the new agreement because only an absolute dolt would actually sign that thing.
Darius JOHNSON
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2014-02-14 18:34:33 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:


TheMittani is. I'm sure amongst the 37000 odd CFC members we could scrounge up a couple more.

Mittens hasn't posted here.

Darius JOHNSON wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I love how people keep talking about US law or German law or {COUNTRY_NAME} law.
You seem to be forgetting an important part: CCP Hf. is a company in Iceland subject to Iceland law.

I'm not saying this seems to be a good move, but your arguments why aren't very sound. I should also note, most of you aren't lawyers anyways.


You have no idea who is or isn't a lawyer in this thread aside from myself potentially and it's already been explained that Icelandic copyright law means precisely **** in this situation. Cool post though I guess if by cool post I mean you may as well have just said nothing as the content would be identical.

:edit: Also "HOW DO I INTERNATIONAL TRADE AGREEMENTS" "WHAT IS THE EU ECONOMIC ZONE" just read something before you open your mouth and humiliate yourself with your ignorance

Is being a gigantic douchebag a requirement for membership in goonswarm? If you're really worried about CCP having your IP, maybe you should change it to something more accurate like Assholes Anonymous, and not give CCP the name and logo.
===
You're right I don't know who is a lawyer, but I can be sure most of the people who post on these forums aren't, but are just blowing smoke out their ass. In fact one of the people I was referring to specifically state they weren't a lawyer, and I wasn't referring to your posts at all, and, again the posts I was referring to don't mention internationally recognized, just "Well I don't really know legalese but this one paragraph in my one country seems legit"

You could just read what I posted before stepping up to stroke your own self importance. If you wanna get mad why don't you get mad at ALL the ignorant posts.


I'm sure you think this was a great post and all but A) It wasn't and B) If you want to refer to specific things in a forum and not other specific things in that same thread then you may want to mention those specific things and not just conveniently insist those were the things you meant when you get called on your blanket statement.

To quote the great Donald Rumsfeld "I can only reply to the posts you've made. Not the posts you wish you'd made."
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#184 - 2014-02-14 18:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Xindi Kraid wrote:
You're right I don't know who is a lawyer, but I can be sure most of the people who post on these forums aren't, but are just blowing smoke out their ass. In fact one of the people I was referring to specifically state they weren't a lawyer, and I wasn't referring to your posts at all, and, again the posts I was referring to don't mention internationally recognized, just "Well I don't really know legalese but this one paragraph in my one country seems legit"

You could just read what I posted before stepping up to stroke your own self importance. If you wanna get mad why don't you get mad at ALL the ignorant posts.

you are dumb because icelandic copyright law covers only copyrights created under icelandic law (e.g. in iceland), while copyrights created under US or UK or german law are covered by the laws of those nations, and you did exactly what you're claiming others did (knew nothing about the actual subject and just picked a random line and ran with it)

everyone else was right and you were wrong so you should go back into your shame hole and never emerge again

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Circumstantial Evidence
#185 - 2014-02-14 19:25:01 UTC
I believe submission and usage by CCP of a subscriber created image should constitute a type of shrink-wrap limited license for CCP to redistribute the image as they see fit, with the subscriber-creator's only recourse to demand CCP cease & desist future use.

I recognize it gets tricky because in the case of alliance logos, the original artist has given over control of their image to the alliance executor, as acknowledged by CCP in their submission and approval process, and may not have legal standing to issue complaints.

If CCP gains 1,000 subscribers due to a particularly effective in-game event or ad or TV/Movie** featuring subscriber images... the subscriber-creator / alliance executor-owner, can't expect monetary compensation from CCP. Subscriber-creators / alliance executor-owners, have technically paid CCP to use images they submitted for approval What?

I think the license idea should grant subscriber-creators / alliance executor-owners, the right to redistribute THEIR image, in isolation, as they see fit for their own profit. It would be a problem if CCP-created art such as the EVE logo were included & CCP would be within their rights to demand C&D upon use of their artwork, if their permission for such usage was not obtained.

** I seriously doubt any alliance names or logos as seen in EVE today will be used in the EVE TV series that's in development... but players will be quick to create and use whatever new corp and alliance names come from it, lol.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#186 - 2014-02-14 20:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sable Moran
Uma D wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Darius JOHNSON wrote:
CCP has no ownership stake. Posts on forums aren't valid transfers of ownership. Registration with copyright offices is defining ownership. CCP is not a position to sublicense anything.

This is clearly not true. You agreed to the contract when you uploaded the graphic or accepted the EULA. Of course ownership and licences can be transferred by contract. We do it all the time.


§ 29
Rechtsgeschäfte über das Urheberrecht

(1) Das Urheberrecht ist nicht übertragbar, es sei denn, es wird in Erfüllung einer Verfügung von Todes wegen oder an Miterben im Wege der Erbauseinandersetzung übertragen.

(2) Zulässig sind die Einräumung von Nutzungsrechten (§ 31), schuldrechtliche Einwilligungen und Vereinbarungen zu Verwertungsrechten sowie die in § 39 geregelten Rechtsgeschäfte über Urheberpersönlichkeitsrechte.

Translates to:

§ 29
Transactions on copyright

(1) Copyright is not transferable, unless it is transferred in execution of a testamentary disposition or joint-heirs by way of inheritance disputes.

(2) are permitted the granting of rights (§ 31), debt legal consents and agreements on exploitation rights and the regulated in § 39 legal transactions on moral rights.


Which means... even if i wanted to i can not transfer the ownership of my intellectual property.


In essence this is the case with Finnish law too:
Tekijänoikeuslaki
1 LUKU
Tekijänoikeuden kohde ja sisällys
3 §
Oikeudesta, joka tekijällä on tämän pykälän mukaan, hän voi sitovasti luopua vain mikäli kysymyksessä on laadultaan ja laajuudeltaan rajoitettu teoksen käyttäminen.

Translation:

Copyright law
Chapter 1
Object and content of copyright
3 §
Copyright that the creator according to this chapter has, he can waive only if it is in scope qualitatively and quantitatively limited use of the creation.

41 § says that the copyright can only be transferred (after death of the creator) according to legislation that applies to marriage, inheritance or 'last will and testament', which ever is relevant.

In other words according to Finnish law I can _only_ give CCP the _permission to use_ anything that I have created. I _can not_ transfer the copyright to them even if I wanted.

EDIT: In case the CCP Legal department wishes to peruse the piece of legislation here's a linky: http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1961/19610404

Off topic: I knew that bits of the Finnish legislation is rather old, but almost three hundred years old? Reading some of that is actually rather fun, really paints a picture of how agrarian Finland was at the time. :)

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#187 - 2014-02-14 20:13:49 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I love how people keep talking about US law or German law or {COUNTRY_NAME} law.
You seem to be forgetting an important part: CCP Hf. is a company in Iceland subject to Iceland law.

I'm not saying this seems to be a good move, but your arguments why aren't very sound. I should also note, most of you aren't lawyers anyways.


If I as a Finnish citizen create an art piece in Finland the applicable copyright laws are found in the Finnish law books. Mind you I'm not entirely sure if the 'in Finland' part is necessary. So if I doodle something on a notepad in lets say Frankfurt it might still fall under Finnish legislation.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Darius JOHNSON
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2014-02-14 20:59:15 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
I believe submission and usage by CCP of a subscriber created image should constitute a type of shrink-wrap limited license for CCP to redistribute the image as they see fit, with the subscriber-creator's only recourse to demand CCP cease & desist future use.

I recognize it gets tricky because in the case of alliance logos, the original artist has given over control of their image to the alliance executor, as acknowledged by CCP in their submission and approval process, and may not have legal standing to issue complaints.

If CCP gains 1,000 subscribers due to a particularly effective in-game event or ad or TV/Movie** featuring subscriber images... the subscriber-creator / alliance executor-owner, can't expect monetary compensation from CCP. Subscriber-creators / alliance executor-owners, have technically paid CCP to use images they submitted for approval What?

I think the license idea should grant subscriber-creators / alliance executor-owners, the right to redistribute THEIR image, in isolation, as they see fit for their own profit. It would be a problem if CCP-created art such as the EVE logo were included & CCP would be within their rights to demand C&D upon use of their artwork, if their permission for such usage was not obtained.

** I seriously doubt any alliance names or logos as seen in EVE today will be used in the EVE TV series that's in development... but players will be quick to create and use whatever new corp and alliance names come from it, lol.


If they want to stick to the Eve Is Real narrative then doing a movie about the Delve War being fought between Noonswarm (Logo is a fly with a tophat) and Band of Bothers (Logo is an anime girl) led by one Denarious JAMES, The Spittani and Sirfolle sounds pretty stupid.

When you see a can of Coke in a movie the movie studio doesn't OWN the Coke logo. This whole NEED to OWN concept is just patently false either via ignorance or purposeful deceit. I don't understand why CCP feels a need to constantly do things the completely wrong and worst looking way but this is a fine example of that and it's just flatly reprehensible behavior.

The way most people seem to handle this is licensing. CCP decided purposely, either A) Because they don't understand the laws or B) Because they're trying to screw everyone, that they want to own your work. I am open to suggestions but I don't see any grey area here.

It's just greedy and dishonest and not going to happen. So CCP needs to decide whether they want to own other people's work for whatever reason they're not divulging or for Eve to be Real and have players establish identities beyond their game because frankly given the conversation those are the only two options on the table.
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#189 - 2014-02-14 21:00:40 UTC
And then you people ask CCP to give us alliance/corp logos on ships, and wonder why CCP hasn't done it. With the bitching and moaning in this thread, it's no surprise. I will be surprised if CCP just doesn't show you the finger and pull all alliance logos out of the game.
Darius JOHNSON
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2014-02-14 21:00:50 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I love how people keep talking about US law or German law or {COUNTRY_NAME} law.
You seem to be forgetting an important part: CCP Hf. is a company in Iceland subject to Iceland law.

I'm not saying this seems to be a good move, but your arguments why aren't very sound. I should also note, most of you aren't lawyers anyways.


If I as a Finnish citizen create an art piece in Finland the applicable copyright laws are found in the Finnish law books. Mind you I'm not entirely sure if the 'in Finland' part is necessary. So if I doodle something on a notepad in lets say Frankfurt it might still fall under Finnish legislation.


Just to add to this international treaties are why your finnish copyrights would be respected by another country. There's a reason there's no longer Macdonalds in Iceland and it's not because some Icelandic guy preferred the name Metro. This idea that for some reason because CCP is sitting in Iceland some magical elven laws apply to everyone else in the world is an fantasy.
Darius JOHNSON
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2014-02-14 21:01:54 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:
And then you people ask CCP to give us alliance/corp logos on ships, and wonder why CCP hasn't done it. With the bitching and moaning in this thread, it's no surprise. I will be surprised if CCP just doesn't show you the finger and pull all alliance logos out of the game.



If the option was ever that we sign over our identities or we have logos in the game the logos would never have been there in the first place. Don't be obtuse. The reasons there's no logos on ships have nothing to do with legality.
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#192 - 2014-02-14 21:56:31 UTC
Darius JOHNSON wrote:
hydraSlav wrote:
And then you people ask CCP to give us alliance/corp logos on ships, and wonder why CCP hasn't done it. With the bitching and moaning in this thread, it's no surprise. I will be surprised if CCP just doesn't show you the finger and pull all alliance logos out of the game.



If the option was ever that we sign over our identities or we have logos in the game the logos would never have been there in the first place. Don't be obtuse. The reasons there's no logos on ships have nothing to do with legality.


The reason ships have no logos is due to that being not implemented due to technical/programming needs.
The reason it is not implemented is because it is not given priority on the backlog and/or not worst the ROI.
The reason that it is not given priority are people like you.

Go feel important now, internet forum lawyer warrior
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#193 - 2014-02-14 22:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Romanov
hydraSlav wrote:

The reason ships have no logos is due to that being not implemented due to technical/programming needs.
The reason it is not implemented is because it is not given priority on the backlog and/or not worst the ROI.
The reason that it is not given priority are people like you.

Go feel important now, internet forum lawyer warrior



This can only end well.

edit:

Quote:

(2/15/2014 12:06:17 AM) directorbot: GOOD AFTERNOON BARRISTERS/SOLICITORS/whatever the hell they call the lawyers in your cozy European country. We're assembling yet another ~interest group~, Lawyerswarm, in the aftermath of a recent CCP dev blog trying to claim ownership of alliance logos. If you're a lawyer/attorney/etc and in the CFC, please join lawyerswarm@xxx ; the US TZ turned up about twenty of us just from one broadcast last night.

*** This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all at 2014-02-14 13:36:17.250261 EVE, replies are not monitored ***



I get the feeling our legal team will probably be bigger than CCPs.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Uma D
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2014-02-14 22:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Uma D
hydraSlav wrote:
And then you people ask CCP to give us alliance/corp logos on ships, and wonder why CCP hasn't done it. With the bitching and moaning in this thread, it's no surprise. I will be surprised if CCP just doesn't show you the finger and pull all alliance logos out of the game.



This has nothing to do with bitching around. We are simply defending our own property here, which ccp is tryng to steal.

And as an artist I can hardly stand by idle when entity X comes along trying to claim ownership of my work and wants to tell me that i can not do whatever I please to do with it.

What do you think ccp would be doing when I would go ahead and sell copies of stuff they created and on top of it ask them to stop selling their version so that i can make more money? You think they are just gonna go along and agree with it?

In the end ccp can be happy that people are willing to give them a license to use their work for any eve related purpose, including advertising, internet streams and so on, for free.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#195 - 2014-02-14 22:33:51 UTC
I can't wait for this clarification.

A game company sues people who use their own game logos to make shirts.

Or better put, CCP's lawyers sues a man with muscular dystrophy.

This should look great in the media.
Darius JOHNSON
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2014-02-14 22:40:38 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:
Darius JOHNSON wrote:
hydraSlav wrote:
And then you people ask CCP to give us alliance/corp logos on ships, and wonder why CCP hasn't done it. With the bitching and moaning in this thread, it's no surprise. I will be surprised if CCP just doesn't show you the finger and pull all alliance logos out of the game.



If the option was ever that we sign over our identities or we have logos in the game the logos would never have been there in the first place. Don't be obtuse. The reasons there's no logos on ships have nothing to do with legality.


The reason ships have no logos is due to that being not implemented due to technical/programming needs.
The reason it is not implemented is because it is not given priority on the backlog and/or not worst the ROI.
The reason that it is not given priority are people like you.

Go feel important now, internet forum lawyer warrior


Explain to me more please I'd like to understand a bit more about CCP's decision-making process and given that I worked there for four years and you're just a bad-posting zilch with no insight whatesoever I'm super curious what I've obviously missed being on the inside while you were doing precisely **** of any value.

I'll let you in on something that's not secret at all you just don't know it because you're stupid... it has nothing to do with resources and everything to do with the fact that the game can't handle what it has now on a large scale. There are certainly creative ways to help mitigate that but at the end of the day ship bling isn't as important as the game actually running you stupid stupid person.

Now I realize that, having done nothing of any consequence ever, you don't have any skin in this game but those of us who have created something aren't going to hand it over to CCP simply because they demand their princely rights, nevermind the fact that they're not entitled to it. Maybe you'll understand at some point in the future if you ever pull yourself out of nothingville and build something other than a list of awful posts on the internet.

- The Honourable Darius "Matlock" JOHNSON esq.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#197 - 2014-02-14 22:49:14 UTC
Darius JOHNSON wrote:

Explain to me more please I'd like to understand a bit more about CCP's decision-making process and given that I worked there for four years and you're just a bad-posting zilch with no insight whatesoever I'm super curious what I've obviously missed being on the inside while you were doing precisely **** of any value.

I'll let you in on something that's not secret at all you just don't know it because you're stupid... it has nothing to do with resources and everything to do with the fact that the game can't handle what it has now on a large scale. There are certainly creative ways to help mitigate that but at the end of the day ship bling isn't as important as the game actually running you stupid stupid person.

Now I realize that, having done nothing of any consequence ever, you don't have any skin in this game but those of us who have created something aren't going to hand it over to CCP simply because they demand their princely rights, nevermind the fact that they're not entitled to it. Maybe you'll understand at some point in the future if you ever pull yourself out of nothingville and build something other than a list of awful posts on the internet.

- The Honourable Darius "Matlock" JOHNSON esq.



When you said princely rights, the first thing I thought of was Primae Noctis.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2014-02-14 23:42:17 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:

When you said princely rights, the first thing I thought of was Primae Noctis.

Oh, you mean you didn't real the fine print on the EULA when you signed up for goonfleet.com? Lets just say what while CCP owns our fatbee, Darius Johnson owns our butts.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2014-02-14 23:55:10 UTC
Why wouldn't I want Darius JOHNSON owning my butt

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mirkali Maricadie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2014-02-15 00:42:03 UTC
Darius JOHNSON wrote:
Maybe you'll understand at some point in the future if you ever pull yourself out of nothingville and build something other than a list of awful posts on the internet.

- The Honourable Darius "Matlock" JOHNSON esq.


Isn't that the very definition of Something Awful? Big smile