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Non-consensual PVP on Sisi???
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hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#1 - 2014-02-13 03:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: hydraSlav
The old Sisi rules clearly stated "no non-consensual PVP"

In the new rules, i can't find anything about that.
instead, there is rule #2
Quote:
2. Combat by consent only, except in the designated combat systems (6-CZ49 and PVH8-0, only on Singularity)


My testing was interrupted by MarcusPlain when he proceeded to seek me out, harass me and kill me. His excuse was that rules allow for PVP in 6-CZ49 system.

But, rule #1 states:
Quote:
1. No interfering with CCP, volunteer or player testing.


I was not at station, celestial or at any of the arenas/beacons. I was at safespot, doing player testing (was testing tracking with an alt) and he interfered by probing me down and killing me.

[ 2014.02.13 02:48:39 ] hydraSlav > hey, no non-consensual pvp!
[ 2014.02.13 02:48:51 ] hydraSlav > MarcusPlain no PVP
[ 2014.02.13 02:49:03 ] MarcusPlain > kk
[ 2014.02.13 02:49:04 ] MarcusPlain > my bad
[ 2014.02.13 02:50:16 ] Crazy KSK > https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Test_server_rules fyi
[ 2014.02.13 02:51:34 ] MarcusPlain > it doesnt say no non consensual pvp
[ 2014.02.13 02:51:42 ] MarcusPlain > says no pvp at station or gates
...
[ 2014.02.13 02:58:45 ] hydraSlav > Rule #1 No interfering with CCP, volunteer or player testing.
[ 2014.02.13 02:59:05 ] hydraSlav > the interfering with "player testing" part covers no non-consensual pvp
[ 2014.02.13 02:59:12 ] MarcusPlain > i was testing your defence

To me, this is a clear violation of rule #1, which warrants the enactment of the "consequences" section of the rules (i.e ban)

Can we please get a GM/DEV response on whether non-consensual PVP is allowed on SiSi and what does "no interfering with ... player testing" cover
Vortox14
Torunn
#2 - 2014-02-13 03:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vortox14
Quote:
Combat by consent only, except in the designated combat systems (6-CZ49 and PVH8-0, only on Singularity).


Means that ALL locations except the Star gates and the Station (along with beacons surrounding the station ie: the ones within 500KM of it) are in-fact PVP locations within those systems, regardless of consent. This is due to it specifically outlying the station and star gates has the only places of refuge within those two systems. (The beacons within 500KM of the station are with the station due to association.)

Thus the guy was not breaking the rule: No PVP without Consent. It's a pain in the ass but that's how the rule works.
If it were any other system, ISD/Devs could take action, but with what you have said and showed, their hands are in-fact mostly tied by protocols. They can at-most move him to a different star system for interference with a test. Which won't accomplish much at this point.
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#3 - 2014-02-13 04:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: hydraSlav
Vortox14 wrote:
Quote:
Combat by consent only, except in the designated combat systems (6-CZ49 and PVH8-0, only on Singularity).


Means that ALL locations except the Star gates and the Station (along with beacons surrounding the station ie: within 500KM of it) are in-fact PVP locations within those systems, regardless of consent. This is due to it specifically outlying the station and star gates has the only places of refuge within those two systems. (The beacons within 500KM of the station are with the station due to association.)

Thus the guy was not breaking rules. It's a pain in the ass but that's how the rule works.
if it were any other system. the devs can take action. But with what you have said and showed, their hands are in-fact mostly tied by protocols. They can at-most move him to a different star system for interference with a test. Which won't accomplish much at this point.



Then what does "1. No interfering with CCP, volunteer or player testing" cover?
That is the #1 rule, and clearly states, no interference with testing, regardless of system or location there-within
Vortox14
Torunn
#4 - 2014-02-13 04:18:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vortox14
Vortox14 wrote:
Quote:
They can at-most move him to a different star system for interference with a test. Which won't accomplish much at this point.


If a repeat offender they can take more drastic measures.

[quote]No interfering with CCP, volunteer or player testing.

The rule isn't absolute within those two systems.
Technically Rule #2 nullifies the effect of rule #1 for those two systems. Else rule #2.1 would be not needed. Thus rule #2.1 actually trumps Rule #1, but ONLY in those systems.

Edit:
Hate the technicalities....

Realistically rule #2 should be altered to read:
Combat by consent only, except in the designated combat [arena's within the systems] (6-CZ49 and PVH8-0, only on Singularity). For it not to clash with rule #1. Which would remove Rule #2.1 No fighting or other aggressive actions at the station and gates (no targeted or AoE warp inhibiting modules). There by extension the perpetrator can be actually time banned.

But again the technicalities if it is rule #2 is absolute with those two systems.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#5 - 2014-02-13 10:01:55 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:
The old Sisi rules clearly stated "no non-consensual PVP"

In the new rules, i can't find anything about that.
instead, there is rule #2
Quote:
2. Combat by consent only, except in the designated combat systems (6-CZ49 and PVH8-0, only on Singularity)


My testing was interrupted by MarcusPlain when he proceeded to seek me out, harass me and kill me. His excuse was that rules allow for PVP in 6-CZ49 system.

But, rule #1 states:
Quote:
1. No interfering with CCP, volunteer or player testing.


I was not at station, celestial or at any of the arenas/beacons. I was at safespot, doing player testing (was testing tracking with an alt) and he interfered by probing me down and killing me.

[ 2014.02.13 02:48:39 ] hydraSlav > hey, no non-consensual pvp!
[ 2014.02.13 02:48:51 ] hydraSlav > MarcusPlain no PVP
[ 2014.02.13 02:49:03 ] MarcusPlain > kk
[ 2014.02.13 02:49:04 ] MarcusPlain > my bad
[ 2014.02.13 02:50:16 ] Crazy KSK > https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Test_server_rules fyi
[ 2014.02.13 02:51:34 ] MarcusPlain > it doesnt say no non consensual pvp
[ 2014.02.13 02:51:42 ] MarcusPlain > says no pvp at station or gates
...
[ 2014.02.13 02:58:45 ] hydraSlav > Rule #1 No interfering with CCP, volunteer or player testing.
[ 2014.02.13 02:59:05 ] hydraSlav > the interfering with "player testing" part covers no non-consensual pvp
[ 2014.02.13 02:59:12 ] MarcusPlain > i was testing your defence

To me, this is a clear violation of rule #1, which warrants the enactment of the "consequences" section of the rules (i.e ban)

Can we please get a GM/DEV response on whether non-consensual PVP is allowed on SiSi and what does "no interfering with ... player testing" cover

my opinion is that he is right, the system stated in rule 2 are pvp free everywhere except gates / station and the few becons really close to station.

if you want to be let alone with your friend / alt etc.... for testing, use another system closeby, not hard to find one with a seeded station anyway, and in those rule 1 apply and is mostly respected by players
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#6 - 2014-02-13 10:27:40 UTC
Did you previously before you started the test tell him that you were doing a test and please to wait till you were done testing?
Otherwise unless he can read your mind through CCP's servers to your computer, how was he meant to know you weren't just hanging out with your own probes looking for your own targets?
And if he can read your mind like that, he's very scary and you should be nice to him.
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#7 - 2014-02-13 13:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: hydraSlav
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Did you previously before you started the test tell him that you were doing a test and please to wait till you were done testing?
Otherwise unless he can read your mind through CCP's servers to your computer, how was he meant to know you weren't just hanging out with your own probes looking for your own targets?
And if he can read your mind like that, he's very scary and you should be nice to him.


I've informed him in local. He acknowledged me in local (read the text i pasted), but then still proceeded to interfere with player testing

And i wasn't hanging around any celestial, so it's not like i am an easy target just begging to get disturbed for being in the wrong place
Commander Ding
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-02-13 15:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ding
2. Combat by consent only, except in the designated combat systems (6-CZ49 and PVH8-0,

Pretty self explanatory.

But if we must break it down.

If you are in another system other than test systems. I would have to ask you if I could shoot your face off.
If you are in 6-c or pvh I could shoot your face off anywhere in the system except the station grid or gates.

If you don't want your testing interfered with you test outside 6-c or pvh.
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#9 - 2014-02-13 17:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: hydraSlav
Commander Ding wrote:
2. Combat by consent only, except in the designated combat systems (6-CZ49 and PVH8-0,

Pretty self explanatory.

But if we must break it down.

If you are in another system other than test systems. I would have to ask you if I could shoot your face off.
If you are in 6-c or pvh I could shoot your face off anywhere in the system except the station grid or gates.

If you don't want your testing interfered with you test outside 6-c or pvh.


What all of your are trying to do is to view the individual rules in isolation.
You are trying to say that because #2 rule allows combat in 6-CZ49, it should be viewed in isolation, even though it violates #1 rule. If we follow individual rules in isolation, that means i can fight anywhere anytime in 6-CZ49. That is not true, as there are additional rules prohibiting combat at station/gates. For that to be true, you have to look at rules in combination. If you look at rules in combination, you should not interfere with my player testing, even if i am in 6-C

=========================
Individual Rules in isolation
- Non-consensual combat allowed in 6-CZ49
Implication: I can shoot anyone, anywhere, anytime. Including shooting CCP trying to organize testing, while at station/gates.

The above is not true:
- You are not allowed to engage at stations/gates in 6-C
- You are not allowed to interfere with CCP trying to organize/test something in 6-C
Conclusion: rules are not treated in isolation, but in combination with other rules
=========================


=========================
Rules in combination
- No interfering with CCP (and player testing)
- Non-consensual combat allowed in 6-CZ49
- No combat at stations/gates in 6-CZ49

The above is true:
- You are allowed to PVP in 6-CZ49, but not at stations/gates, and not at expense of interfering with CCP testing
- This also inherits no interfering with player testing
Conclusion: rules are to be treated in combination with other rules.
=========================


In another case, when community was nitpicking at CCP's rules regarding aggression in rookie systems (regarding the maxing character age that can engage other newbies), CCP/GM stated that the community should follow the spirit of the rules, not just verbatim.

In this case, the "spirit" of Sisi rules is "no interfering with others' testing". And if you want to go all verbatim and technical with the rules, then you have to acknowledge that they must be treated in combination, not individually.
Kora Ethereal
Ethereal Beings
#10 - 2014-02-14 08:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kora Ethereal
hydraSlav wrote:
-Lots of Text Removed.



I'll be straight, contact ISD/QA/GM ingame on sisi, they're usually in local otherwise hop on IRC (#eve-chaos on irc.coldfront.net if I remember properly). They will tell you that if you aren't on station grid (or rotation beacon) or a Gate, you're pretty much a free target regardless of if you're at a Combat Area or not.
~This is a loose quote/paraphrase at best.


Long story short, regardless of the "player testing rule" if you're in 6-CZ or PVH you have forfeited every right to not be murdered or smeared across 45 AU of space.

so when player X probes you in deep space and it's not on station or a gate, he can warping, point you, and hot-drop 900 dreads without breaking a single rule.

This is what everyone has tried to tell you, and what I'm also trying to tell you. Besides if you really need to do player testing go AS FAR AWAY FROM 6-CZ as you can.

Also take the time to read the rule post agian and notice that the systems are designated as COMBAT SYSTEMS multiple times... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6353
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#11 - 2014-02-14 18:43:58 UTC  |  Edited by: hydraSlav
Kora Ethereal wrote:
hydraSlav wrote:
-Lots of Text Removed.



I'll be straight, contact ISD/QA/GM ingame on sisi, they're usually in local otherwise hop on IRC (#eve-chaos on irc.coldfront.net if I remember properly). They will tell you that if you aren't on station grid (or rotation beacon) or a Gate, you're pretty much a free target regardless of if you're at a Combat Area or not.
~This is a loose quote/paraphrase at best.


Long story short, regardless of the "player testing rule" if you're in 6-CZ or PVH you have forfeited every right to not be murdered or smeared across 45 AU of space.

so when player X probes you in deep space and it's not on station or a gate, he can warping, point you, and hot-drop 900 dreads without breaking a single rule.

This is what everyone has tried to tell you, and what I'm also trying to tell you. Besides if you really need to do player testing go AS FAR AWAY FROM 6-CZ as you can.

Also take the time to read the rule post agian and notice that the systems are designated as COMBAT SYSTEMS multiple times... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6353


And if that's the case, the rules should state in rule #1 "No interfering [...], unless in designated combat systems". Very simple. Yet they don't. And without this little change, we are back to the question of whether to treat each rule individually, or collectively, as i have illustrated.

I did file a petition, but there was no "Sisi" section of any sort, not sure when they will get to it, or if even the right people will see it.
Kora Ethereal
Ethereal Beings
#12 - 2014-02-15 01:28:13 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:
Kora Ethereal wrote:
hydraSlav wrote:
-Lots of Text Removed.



I'll be straight, contact ISD/QA/GM ingame on sisi, they're usually in local otherwise hop on IRC (#eve-chaos on irc.coldfront.net if I remember properly). They will tell you that if you aren't on station grid (or rotation beacon) or a Gate, you're pretty much a free target regardless of if you're at a Combat Area or not.
~This is a loose quote/paraphrase at best.


Long story short, regardless of the "player testing rule" if you're in 6-CZ or PVH you have forfeited every right to not be murdered or smeared across 45 AU of space.

so when player X probes you in deep space and it's not on station or a gate, he can warping, point you, and hot-drop 900 dreads without breaking a single rule.

This is what everyone has tried to tell you, and what I'm also trying to tell you. Besides if you really need to do player testing go AS FAR AWAY FROM 6-CZ as you can.

Also take the time to read the rule post agian and notice that the systems are designated as COMBAT SYSTEMS multiple times... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6353


And if that's the case, the rules should state in rule #1 "No interfering [...], unless in designated combat systems". Very simple. Yet they don't. And without this little change, we are back to the question of whether to treat each rule individually, or collectively, as i have illustrated.

I did file a petition, but there was no "Sisi" section of any sort, not sure when they will get to it, or if even the right people will see it.



Treat them more as a collective, ie Rule 2 Affects rule 1 nullifying the idea of safety during playertesting whilist in 6-CZ or PVH.

Rule 2 is an amendment to Rulle 1 and these rules :

Combat system (6-CZ49, PVH8-0) specific additional rules

1. No fighting or other aggressive actions at the station and gates (no targeted or AoE warp inhibiting modules).
2. No capitals in PVH8-0

Amend Rule #2.