EVE General Discussion

How does the EvE community feel about force multipliers vs. diminishing returns game play mechanics.

Currently there are several force multiplier mechanics in EvE that offer zero diminishing returns.

One of the most common is Remote Repair modules.

My question is should there be any limits on force multipliers?

One argument is that a force multiplier allows a smaller force to engage a larger one. Which is true but without any limit or diminishing return this stays true for larger forces and such can zero out any gains gained for the smaller force.

I think it would be fair to say their YES there should be diminishing returns built into any force multiplier in EVE.

Personally I think the best way would be found in Fleet mechanics.

It would be logical that when you are in a fleet you are sharing information about your ship with other ships...

A squad would be the closest connected as there is less ships to monitor and then would go all the way out to non fleet member where critical information is not shared.

So something like Remote Repair would scale without being out of balance.

So now Remote repair for a squad member would be 100% effective then 75% on a wing member then 50% on a fleet member and then 25% on a non fleet member.

This too should also apply for application of damage. Tough I am unsure how this should scale I feel that its just bad that the force multiplier that is "blob" has zero diminishing returns...

i.e its just as effective to shoot one ship with 1 ship as its with over 2000. It would seem reasonable that at a certain point any more ships shooting a single target should just be "overkill" and not be effective at all...

So Great EvE player base should there be a limit on force multipliers or not?

pretty much eve fights used to be all about dynamics now its more akin to how a tournament fight plays out...

Ever been in a tidi fight?

Yup.

You just need to understand that, all things being equal, the side with more pilots will always win a fight. "Force Multipliers" operate on the assumption that not all of the other things will be equal - they'll have more AHACs than you, but your 6 logistics ships will keep your pilots on the field longer and allow you to win a protracted fight. If they have more pilots than you AND more logi, all other things being equal, you're always gonna lose that engagement.

Force multipliers, by design, only meet their potential if they are not being countered. If the enemy fleet also has logi on the field, and also has ECM boats jamming your logi, and also has SD boats wrecking the lock time of your logi, you are just absolutely outmatched and any cry to "fix" the game mechanics to allow you to win will fall on deaf ears.

ECM is the answer to your question

Yes there should imo. Or perhaps not a limit but a different way that force multiplication works.

Slowcats are a great example of how force multiplication is out of control. The ability to rep through the damage of 100's of dreads with RR (FM) while assigning drones to a single person to achieve extremely high alpha (FM) shows how FM's can get out of control.

The same goes for links, a 30% buff to 1,000,000 worth of a fleets HP cancels out, but even worse tilts the balance into the favour of the advantaged, against 500,000 worth of the opposing ships HP. It gives the smaller force 150,000 more HP but that's cancelled out by the 300,000 HP granted to the larger fleet. The end result is the links do nothing for the smaller force and end up not being a multiplier but a subtractor.

I like your ideas they would go some way to improving things for the smaller force while reducing bonuses for the force with the advantage.

And all is well with the universe where the 1000 man blob can insta-explode the 30 man fleet that tried to take them on, with not even as much as a scratch on the paintwork.

EVE is not about "fair", and I don't think ship "balancing" means what you want it to mean. If you want to win, I suggest you find at least 999 friends who are better pilots on average than that 1000 man blob.

I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, but I do have a problem with your terminology. Logistics repair doesn't qualify as a force modifier: it doesn't kill the enemy any faster. My understanding of force modifiers would cover things like command ships with links which affect DPS (R.O.F., etc.)

Logistics ships and other things which affect fleet "toughness" (e.g. command links which increase/harden shields/armor) are something, but I don't think the proper label is "force multiplier".

MDD

They're a force multiplier because they can be used to apply an entire fleets worth of repping to each ship in fleet when its primaried.

The whole concept of RR is absurdly OP and logically ridiculous. A module on one ship that uses no paste or consumable that can magically put bits of a ship back together again.. :)

WoW priests come to mind. The difference in WoW though was priests were very fragile and could be killed easily, in EVE they're some of the biggest toughest ships in game with the most EHP (Carriers) as well as any ship in game being able to fit the priest module.

Yeah I proposed a sort of bleed system that bleeds damage into space the more damage per second is applied to a target in F&I. It'd stop a large fleet of supers and dreads from blapping down a POS shield in minutes but could also be applied to ships, however fell on deaf blind CCP ears and eyes I guess.