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Null sec what chance does the little guy have

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Author
Emma Muutaras
State War Academy
Caldari State
#381 - 2014-02-15 13:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Emma Muutaras
here is a idea maybe i should convo every single alliance/corp that rents regardless of who they rent from and organise them into 1 fighting force gotta be a good amount of players in all them alliances, enough at least to make a credible play for a region or 2. could call it The Peasants Revolt
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2014-02-15 13:50:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

System ping pong only occurs because you fail to recruit properly. There's nothing stopping you from recruiting people from other time zones except your own laziness.

If a coalition holds 500 systems but can't defend them at all hours of the day then they can't hold those 500 systems. That's just too bad. Recruit intelligently or fail. This theme park BS for alliances is bad for EvE.


This is the Infinity Ziona solution to the problems caused by her suggestions. You should be forced to recruit from all timezones, otherwise you shouldn't bother showing up to sov null.

Talk about your barrier to entry. That's inarguably worse than the current situation.

It's not "themepark" for there to be a system that allows you to actually muster a defense instead of being swept while you sleep. That's just your latest whiny talking point.

Yeah you should be forced to recruit from all time zones if you want to keep your space throughout all timezones. Its a global game and should be played as such.

Its not exactly difficult to recruit people from other timezones. If you're a mostly US based alliance you create an advertisement in recruitment forums and in-game asking for non-US timezone peeps to defend in low population times.

Such a huge amount of effort ....

This should have been done from the very beginning when alliances were forming.

Its themepark in that there is only one way to play sov warfare, one ride, one ticket. You reinforce, you get cockblocked by the server with its reinforcement timer, you then show up at the time chosen by the defender, arrange yourself in lines, ... the rest is akin to the old civil war shoot till one side is all dead. Its not dynamic, its not player driven, its not interesting.

Its a garbage crappy theme park that plays out the exact same way every single fight, it doesn't belong in a sandbox game. And Ironically its supposed to the pinnacle of EVE. What a joke.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#383 - 2014-02-15 14:08:09 UTC
No, it's not themepark. Once again, that's just your new talking point.

What's really themepark is playing timezone ping pong. Every day you have to log in and retake the **** you lost while you were asleep.

What you want is a WoW battleground. What you want is PvP on demand, because you want it. Go back to your kiddie ride, go back to your instant gratification. Because that's not EVE.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#384 - 2014-02-15 14:08:22 UTC
Also there doesn't need to be a reversion to the old Sov system. It did suck as well but not as much as this new system which is allowing CFC to take over the entire map. While ping pong may have sucked, this sucks even more.

There's no reason that timers could not be removed and something else put in place that replaces timers but gives control of the content back to the players.

While everyone needs to sleep that doesn't mean while your sleeping everyone else should have to wait for you to wake up to PvP against your assets. We all pay the same amount of money, we all deserve to be able to PvP in our play time, regardless of time zone. That includes Sov PvP against Sov assets.

This game, especially the sov aspect, is supposed to be player driven and at the moment its server driven.

The mistake that was made was to tying non-player objects directly into the game, POS and Sov should be based around players, not based around persistent fictional objects deployed in space. You can't kill players while they're asleep or logged off, so there's no need to have nonsense things like timers for players. The only reason for timers is because they took players out of the equation and fixed sov instead to objects.




CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#385 - 2014-02-15 14:10:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No, it's not themepark. Once again, that's just your new talking point.

What's really themepark is playing timezone ping pong. Every day you have to log in and retake the **** you lost while you were asleep.

What you want is a WoW battleground. What you want is PvP on demand, because you want it. Go back to your kiddie ride, go back to your instant gratification. Because that's not EVE.

LMAO. PvP on demand, yes, I want to PvP when I'm online. That's called sandbox. You go places and if shite happens you pvp. The timer system is pure themepark. You need to look up the definition because you're very confused I think :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#386 - 2014-02-15 14:12:59 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Also there doesn't need to be a reversion to the old Sov system. It did suck as well but not as much as this new system which is allowing CFC to take over the entire map. While ping pong may have sucked, this sucks even more.




What allows the CFC to take over the entire map is that they are BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

They've earned it.

But you don't want to earn it, you don't want to earn anything. You just want CCP to hand it to you.

Quote:
We all pay the same amount of money, we all deserve to be able to PvP in our play time, regardless of time zone. That includes Sov PvP against Sov assets.


I called it.

You want on demand PvP, on your terms only, sticking out your lower lip if you don't get what you want all the time.

Go back to WoW, your entitlement mindset is appropriate there.

Oh, hey Sov assets, right? Does that include POCOs this time?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#387 - 2014-02-15 14:16:11 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
You can sign up for the wonderful Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere :)

Renters Shocked

Or you can read my guide on taking back your content for free and have the whole galaxy at no cost :)
Hahahaha good one.

Oh wait, you were serious.... bwahahahahaha Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#388 - 2014-02-15 14:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Also there doesn't need to be a reversion to the old Sov system. It did suck as well but not as much as this new system which is allowing CFC to take over the entire map. While ping pong may have sucked, this sucks even more.




What allows the CFC to take over the entire map is that they are BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

They've earned it.

But you don't want to earn it, you don't want to earn anything. You just want CCP to hand it to you.

Quote:
We all pay the same amount of money, we all deserve to be able to PvP in our play time, regardless of time zone. That includes Sov PvP against Sov assets.


I called it.

You want on demand PvP, on your terms only, sticking out your lower lip if you don't get what you want all the time.

Go back to WoW, your entitlement mindset is appropriate there.

Oh, hey Sov assets, right? Does that include POCOs this time?


CFC are exactly the same as the average player. They benefit from the timers simply because anyone that wants to attack them has to turn up when they want them to turn up. Trying to pretend that's player driven is laughable.

Like I said in another thread, if insurgents in Afghanistan had to turn up at the time and place of the Coalitions choosing they would be slaughtered. But they're not because they attack dynamically and when and where the Coalition is most vulnerable, you know at night when they're sleeping, when they're travelling in convoy etc.

I want PvP when I run into it, I don't want to advise CCP that I'm going to fight someone in 24 hours, I don't want to turn up at 1am in the morning vs 2000 people because some stupid timer magically makes something invulnerable. If I'm in system and your not and you left your stuff there undefended, yes I want to blow your crap up. That's player driven content.

What you want is protection from CCP, you want to get tucked in at night while mummy CCP makes sure no one hurts your sand castle. You only want to fight when you're sure to have as many people on as possible to help you.

In short, I'm not the one defending magical invulnerability and easy to win PvP. You are. You're the poster child for EvE Alterac Valley battlegrounds apparantly.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

OldWolf69
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#389 - 2014-02-15 14:29:24 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No, it's not themepark. Once again, that's just your new talking point.

What's really themepark is playing timezone ping pong. Every day you have to log in and retake the **** you lost while you were asleep.

What you want is a WoW battleground. What you want is PvP on demand, because you want it. Go back to your kiddie ride, go back to your instant gratification. Because that's not EVE.

LMAO. PvP on demand, yes, I want to PvP when I'm online. That's called sandbox. You go places and if shite happens you pvp. The timer system is pure themepark. You need to look up the definition because you're very confused I think :)

I strongly doubt you can't get PvP when you are online. Prolly not the kind of PvP you want, or a 100% win situation.
Nope, CCP won't come, hold your hand and give you the keys to the Kingdom. But you can keep entertaining us. Lol
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#390 - 2014-02-15 14:32:46 UTC
Quote:
I want PvP when I run into it, I don't want to advise CCP that I'm going to fight someone in 24 hours, I don't want to turn up at 1am in the morning vs 2000 people because some stupid timer magically makes something invulnerable. If I'm in system and your not and you left your stuff there undefended, yes I want to blow your crap up. That's player driven content.


No, that's wanting the rules changed to benefit you.

That's called entitlement.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#391 - 2014-02-15 14:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
OldWolf69 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No, it's not themepark. Once again, that's just your new talking point.

What's really themepark is playing timezone ping pong. Every day you have to log in and retake the **** you lost while you were asleep.

What you want is a WoW battleground. What you want is PvP on demand, because you want it. Go back to your kiddie ride, go back to your instant gratification. Because that's not EVE.

LMAO. PvP on demand, yes, I want to PvP when I'm online. That's called sandbox. You go places and if shite happens you pvp. The timer system is pure themepark. You need to look up the definition because you're very confused I think :)

I strongly doubt you can't get PvP when you are online. Prolly not the kind of PvP you want, or a 100% win situation.
Nope, CCP won't come, hold your hand and give you the keys to the Kingdom. But you can keep entertaining us. Lol

You can get a 100% win situation. All you do is get 37000 people in a coalition. Get CCP to implement timers so you can drop as many of those 37000 people as possible onto anyone attacking your stuff, not when they attack it, but when you decide you want to defend it.

CCP does come and hold your hand, they'll even reinforce the node for you so you can bring as many people as possible to prevent any smaller entity, outside of your timezone from taking anything from you, then you can hold onto the keys of the kingdom as long as you like.


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I want PvP when I run into it, I don't want to advise CCP that I'm going to fight someone in 24 hours, I don't want to turn up at 1am in the morning vs 2000 people because some stupid timer magically makes something invulnerable. If I'm in system and your not and you left your stuff there undefended, yes I want to blow your crap up. That's player driven content.


No, that's wanting the rules changed to benefit you.

That's called entitlement.

LMAO. Pot.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

OldWolf69
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#392 - 2014-02-15 14:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: OldWolf69
[/quote]
CFC are exactly the same as the average player. They benefit from the timers simply because anyone that wants to attack them has to turn up when they want them to turn up. Trying to pretend that's player driven is laughable.

Like I said in another thread, if insurgents in Afghanistan had to turn up at the time and place of the Coalitions choosing they would be slaughtered. But they're not because they attack dynamically and when and where the Coalition is most vulnerable, you know at night when they're sleeping, when they're travelling in convoy etc.

I want PvP when I run into it, I don't want to advise CCP that I'm going to fight someone in 24 hours, I don't want to turn up at 1am in the morning vs 2000 people because some stupid timer magically makes something invulnerable. If I'm in system and your not and you left your stuff there undefended, yes I want to blow your crap up. That's player driven content.

What you want is protection from CCP, you want to get tucked in at night while mummy CCP makes sure no one hurts your sand castle. You only want to fight when you're sure to have as many people on as possible to help you.

In short, I'm not the one defending magical invulnerability and easy to win PvP. You are. You're the poster child for EvE Alterac Valley battlegrounds apparantly.[/quote]


Let me get this straight: CFC is not player driven? What stops you to attack dinamically? Basically you want to get a free ticket to attack structures ONLY when those are unguarded? Seems to me the single one here needing CCP's help is you. Actually pretty crying for it.
bah, not worth the time...Lol
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#393 - 2014-02-15 14:43:23 UTC
IZ's basic thinking is not necessarily a bad thing. I get that he wants timers removed to make Sov Warfare more dynamic. It opens up opportunities for the "little guy" and could make Sov more interesting. I think where he, and others making these suggestions, fail is in the alternative.

You can't simply remove timers and the system ping-pong is not a better paradigm so the question becomes:

Remove timers and replace it with ________________ ...?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#394 - 2014-02-15 14:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Oh, yeah, we need to curtail one of the game's primary selling points, because teh soloh playerz don't feel like they're getting a fair shot at it. Roll

Sov is the team game.

There are places for teh soloh playerz. But it's not sov null. Your problem is that you're trying to shoehorn your playstyle into the wrong place, and screaming "Sandbox!" at the top of your lungs whenever someone points out how stupid you are.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2014-02-15 14:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, yeah, we need to curtail one of the game's primary selling points, because teh soloh playerz don't feel like they're getting a fair shot at it. Roll

Sov is the team game.

There are places for teh soloh playerz. But it's not sov null. Your problem is that you're trying to shoehorn your playstyle into the wrong place, and screaming "Sandbox!" at the top of your lungs whenever someone points out how stupid you are.

EvE's primary selling point is its "sandbox" nature. CCP simply neglects to mention that Sov warfare is one basic boring themepark ride. That's why people come to EvE and get disappointed with the fleet fights, basically because they're just the same thing WoW battlegrounds, or any of the other realm PvP games except super laggy and buggy..

Kaarus here's a tip for you. A themepark is a repeatable identical and predictable ride. Sov Warfare is a repeatable identical predictable ride. Its always the same, there is only one way to start a sov fight, you reinforce, you wait, you turn up, you pew pew down each others HP.

How you're incapable of understanding that is concerning but I guess we're all not born the same eh...

This has nothing to do with solo or soloers. As I have stated before I have no interest in Sov warfare in its current form. There are games that offer more interesting sov PvP than EVE. In fact, EvE would have to offer the WORST mass pvp of any game on the market. Unless of course you like disconnecting repeatedly, having modules not functioning, black screening over 10 hours of 10% Tidi.

If they implemented a proper functioning playable mode of mass pvp I would be all for it. But in its current form it is about equal to a very buggy alpha.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#396 - 2014-02-15 14:59:29 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
IZ's basic thinking is not necessarily a bad thing. I get that he wants timers removed to make Sov Warfare more dynamic.

no, ziona tried to attack a gsf poco and is mad

removing timers actually completely dicks over 'the little guy' in favour of 'whoever has more people in their alliance' in terms of ability to operate structures in any space, and would encourage even more blueing up, NIPs and blobs than now. since the only way to operate a structure long enough to recoup investment would be 'negotiate structure treaties with enemies' and 'collect as many friends as possible to respond versus randoms'
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#397 - 2014-02-15 15:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Benny Ohu wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
IZ's basic thinking is not necessarily a bad thing. I get that he wants timers removed to make Sov Warfare more dynamic.

no, ziona tried to attack a gsf poco and is mad


LOL because POCOs are Sov? Hahaha.

Quote:
removing timers actually completely dicks over 'the little guy' in favour of 'whoever has more people in their alliance' in terms of ability to operate structures in any space, and would encourage even more blueing up, NIPs and blobs than now. since the only way to operate a structure long enough to recoup investment would be 'negotiate structure treaties with enemies' and 'collect as many friends as possible to respond versus randoms'


Is there an alternative? During the HED-GP fight there were a dozen threads about how to fix the broken nature of Sov and power projection. I don't want the little guy dicked over. I also don't want to **** over CFC into having to re-win the space they've earned. But doesn't something have to give?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#398 - 2014-02-15 15:11:04 UTC
If we remove timers it will mean you will have to have a fleet on guard duty 24/7 and a large one at that. We can burn through any structure in a matter of minutes so IZ's idea would make it impossible for smaller alliances to hold anything in null. Hell it would be impossible for most of the big alliances to keep hold of anything.

Your Dad Naked
Doomheim
#399 - 2014-02-15 15:12:08 UTC
Hmmm IZ does have a point. In it's current state the powerful are given too many options.

If the largest coalition is given 24 hours notice before any of their structures can be taken down (and thus systems taken over), they are given enough time to gather the numbers they need to defend said structure. Since they have more members than any other coalition, they are in affect able to defend any and all structures as no other coalition can match that. The only way for them to lose (on paper) is to be attacked by multiple coalitions whose combined numbers exceed theirs.

This isn't broken in and of itself, it just depends what CCP wants out of the game. Do they want the most powerful entities to be almost untouchable? If so, keep the mechanics as is.

I do believe the game would be better however if they were more vulnerable. Perhaps reduce timers to 1 hour.
It then becomes a logistics issue. If a large alliance is organized well enough, they can have themselves setup in time to respond to attacks against any structures in their space.
If you don't have enough members for such a logistical plan, you should not be owning that much space. As simple as that.

Basically what I see happening is: Massive coalitions don't want to have to commit to the logistics that would be required to defend their space without 24 hour timers. As a result these coalitions control more space than they usually would be able to defend in a game without timers.

Considering the current state of null - where these massive coalitions own almost everything - I don't see how this change would be bad. It would force them to either increase their logistics or to cut down on how many systems they own, opening the landscape up to more players.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#400 - 2014-02-15 15:12:16 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Is there an alternative? During the HED-GP fight there were a dozen threads about how to fix the broken nature of Sov and power projection. I don't want the little guy dicked over. I also don't want to **** over CFC into having to re-win the space they've earned. But doesn't something have to give?

i don't want to comment on sov mechanics. i'm just pointing out (again) that ziona has absolutely no interest in any 'little guy', ziona just wants to be able to destroy cfc pocos without having to fight the players who own them. and is unable to consider what that change'd do to the 'little guy' who owns structures