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Vargur Income running Level 4s without blitzing (Rubicon 1.1)

Author
stoicfaux
#1 - 2014-02-10 05:54:48 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Update (2014.02.12): Now contains 30 missions (20 unique) and a new URL link to the spreadsheet.
Edit: Tweaked LP gains to use Security Connections V (a ~7% increase.)
Edit: Here are the blitzing numbers for comparison.

A debate recently came up about whether high-sec level 4 missions paid too much compared to a certain PvE activity in null-sec. It's been "common" knowledge that level 4s can provide 100M+ isk per hour if you blitz for LP. However, the null-sec PvE in question generated liquid isk, whereas LP is problematic with the time it takes to convert the LP to isk. So I decided to run a bunch of "full clear" or "kill all" missions in a Vargur to see how much liquid isk high-sec level 4s can generate. The goal was to see how much "liquid" isk level 4s generated.

Here's the google docs spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdEdXVUU4eDk1YU1ZZklyLWF1UnYwNHc&usp=drive_web#gid=0 You'll want to scroll down to the bottom to see the summary/results/per hour numbers. The Vargur fitting is in the spreadsheet on the "Ship Fitting" tab.

Results:
After 9 hours of missioning in a Vargur, I generated:
* 400M in isk
* 81M in salvage (@jita buy order)
* 185M in loot (per in-game estimate, Hek is closest hub)
* 26M in ammo costs
* 2M in misc expenses (repairs, lost drones, etc.)

For 638M isk in assets or ~70M isk in assets per hour (not including LP.)
* Liquid ISK 44M per hour
* Salvage ISK 9M per hour
* Loot ISK 20.4M per hour
* Ammo Costs -2.8M per hour
* Other Expenses -0.2M per hour
* Total Assets 70.3M per hour

With LP:
0 isk/lp: 71M/hour
800 isk/lp: 88M/hour
1,000 isk/lp: 93M/hour
2,000 isk/lp: 115M/hour
3,000 isk/lp: 137M/hour

Thirty-five missions were offered, thirty were run and five were declined.

Average mission time: 18m9s
Average travel time: 3m3s (16.8%)
Average time in mission: 13m42s (75.5%)

Average # of Jumps to missions: 0.47
Average distance traveled to/from mission: 48.78 AU

Caveats:
* 30 missions still isn't a very large sample size. It's better than the original 21 missions, but the mission selection may still be on the "good" side of the random number generator.
* multiple missions were declined per four hour block (5 declines total)
* Missions were "full clear"/"kill all" where everything except for sentry guns and the occasional frigate were killed.
* Once all the NPCs in a pocket were dead, I left, leaving any remaining salvage and loot on the field.

Observations
I am quite surprised at how much income "clear all" (i.e. not blitzing) brought in. Loot could be especially variable, such as the three AE runs which provided anywhere from 6M to 30M in loot. Oddly enough, with a decent isk/LP conversion rate and/or with cherry-picking, "clear all" missions can generate 100M+/hour, so blitzing level 4s for income isn't necessarily necessary.

Update: You can still make a nice income without blitzing for LP to the point that I have to wonder if blitzing for LP is still "better."

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2 - 2014-02-10 06:23:00 UTC
IMO those missions are a pretty decent "streak", during a period where I was full clearing and looting with an alt in a noctis, I'd have been overjoyed by that sequence.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2014-02-10 14:12:00 UTC
Very nice Stoicfaux. Of course someone will be along shortly to contest what you are saying lol.

But this is why there are high sec mission alts, and a smallish part of the reason why almost half of the 90k characters in SOV holding alliances aren't in null sec (of course there are other reason, like cyno alts and hauler alts etc). There is no need to be out there.

Anomalies are superior in almost every way to missions. Liquid isk, no need to dock and talk to an agent, no need to leave an upgraded system except for an escalation, chance of escalations and commander spawns (and even though it's rare, you can get good stuff out of a commander spawn), no need to change your fit or ammo because you always fight the same npcs. While there isn't much 'fun' to anoms, overall they are just much less tedious. And anomalies have the side effect of creating content for other players because it's a constant cat and mouse game.


But it's null sec, and if you have any sense you won't be in null doing anoms with +6 implants in your head, you won't be in bastion mode because of the 'ceptors (who come out of wormholes while laughing at your "intel channels") and so on. unless you are wardecced you wo't be docking/safeing up/preparing to fight in high sec like you have to do in null which bites even further into your isk/hr.

I don't think it's going to change any time soon and that's a pity as far as i'm concerned, but oh well.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-02-10 14:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
stoicfaux wrote:

Caveats:
* 21 missions isn't a very large sample size.
* multiple missions were declined per four hour block (4 declines total)

so you got 4 declines for 21 mission. Is there any prediction how long you could continue this chain until your agent will stop to talk to you? Or at the end your standings with agent became higher?

Another question: which security status of system you used for mission running? Am i right agent didn't give you missions into low-sec?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

stoicfaux
#5 - 2014-02-10 15:30:53 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

Caveats:
* 21 missions isn't a very large sample size.
* multiple missions were declined per four hour block (4 declines total)

so you got 4 declines for 21 mission. Is there any prediction how long you could continue this chain until your agent will stop to talk to you? Or at the end your standings with agent became higher?

Another question: which security status of system you used for mission running? Am i right agent didn't give you missions into low-sec?

25 missions were offered. 0.5 system. The declined ones were for low-sec (plus one of them was also 3 jumps away which isn't going to happen just on general principles.)

I've got a spreadsheet(tm) somewhere that looks at how often you can decline before losing the agent. There's a good bit of leeway. You can always hop on sisi and try things out.


Note to self: write a standings random walk simulator?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#6 - 2014-02-10 16:35:53 UTC
I've got a question:

How do pirate or ORE missions in 0.0 compare to anomalies?

From your analysis, Highsec LVL4 vs Anomalies seems to be about equal. I've heard that 0.0 missions give out twice as much in LP/rewards.

Also, would you know how does this compare to C3 wormhole sites?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2014-02-10 17:57:05 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:
I've got a question:

How do pirate or ORE missions in 0.0 compare to anomalies?

From your analysis, Highsec LVL4 vs Anomalies seems to be about equal. I've heard that 0.0 missions give out twice as much in LP/rewards.

Also, would you know how does this compare to C3 wormhole sites?


Pirate missions are found in NPC null and on paper offer much better rewards (on paper) than any other missions except lvl 5s (on paper). Pirate missions pay better and than anomalies and IMO. I've done missions in Stain, Delve and Venal. Not only do pirate missions pay out more LP, the pirate LP stores have amazing things in them. I sold Crystal implant sets from the guristas lp store for example, VERY good isk.

in practice (as opposed to on paper) pirate missions are still better than high sec lvl 4s but there are significant differences. Blitzing is more important in null missions because you don't want to be anywhere for too long, going through gates can be tough because of warp disrupt bubbles, getting out of station can be tough because of bubbles (these can be mitigated with scouting and the new mobile depots) and you won't see people doing null missions in marauders with nice implants in their heads. The most common null mission ship in my experience is the Tengu followed by the proteus.

Refitting from mobile depots i since but tedious. Then there is the difficulty involved in getting the stuff you buy with the LP back to empire. Regular transport ships aren't great because of (again) bubbles but ok if you have a scout and wormholes are great but take time to find. The best way to move loot is with a jump capable ship like a carrier.

I haven't lost a ship doing null missions in ages, but the honest truth is that the process is so tedious and nerve racking (even with a "hard to scan" Tech3 ship you will still be spamming dscan looking for combat probes) that after i make enough LP for 2 of 3 implant sets or 2 of 3 pirate BS BPCs I leave null missions alone for a few weeks and go back to high sec lvl 4s or SOV null anoms/exploration.
stoicfaux
#8 - 2014-02-12 20:15:45 UTC
I've updated the spreadsheet with 30 missions (plus 5 declines) with a wider range of missions. Which didn't change the numbers that much.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-02-12 23:56:40 UTC
Something I haven't seen people mention in regards to refusing missions/standings issues: One can also use alt accounts to help with standings problem. On the rare occasion that I dip too low from refusing missions, I log in an alt and use it to warp my main into missions until standing is back.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#10 - 2014-02-13 00:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Desudes wrote:
Something I haven't seen people mention in regards to refusing missions/standings issues: One can also use alt accounts to help with standings problem. On the rare occasion that I dip too low from refusing missions, I log in an alt and use it to warp my main into missions until standing is back.


Requires you to invest in standings on the alt. Super trivial if the alt is on another account. Not so trivial if it isn't - really need to max the skills on the alt and/or buy standings from someone to avoid a long unprofitable period of running crap missions, and its also a slow fix, because its basically only giving you free 4 hour timers to avoid bad missions with.

Most of us are interested in what one person can do with 1 account, as that's a baseline that probably matters more.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#11 - 2014-02-13 18:36:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Very nice Stoicfaux. Of course someone will be along shortly to contest what you are saying lol.

But this is why there are high sec mission alts, and a smallish part of the reason why almost half of the 90k characters in SOV holding alliances aren't in null sec (of course there are other reason, like cyno alts and hauler alts etc). There is no need to be out there.


the other important factor being the number of active people in system. I remember back with belt ratting a system could only handle 2 or so ratters (and i think that was a good system with 20ish belts), Anoms increase this a bit, but well only a bit.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#12 - 2014-02-13 18:43:53 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Desudes wrote:
Something I haven't seen people mention in regards to refusing missions/standings issues: One can also use alt accounts to help with standings problem. On the rare occasion that I dip too low from refusing missions, I log in an alt and use it to warp my main into missions until standing is back.


Requires you to invest in standings on the alt. Super trivial if the alt is on another account. Not so trivial if it isn't - really need to max the skills on the alt and/or buy standings from someone to avoid a long unprofitable period of running crap missions, and its also a slow fix, because its basically only giving you free 4 hour timers to avoid bad missions with.

Most of us are interested in what one person can do with 1 account, as that's a baseline that probably matters more.


Doing it on an alt that is on the same account is pointless because you can't share the rewards with your main, and yes, getting standings on the alt would be tough. Getting up standings on a no-sp alt is trivial if you're already running level 4's on your main. Its definitely worth mentioning for people who are concerned about declines.

Stoic provided a list of the affects of declines in a different thread related specificly to vargur blitzing. A situation where declines would be more used than in non-blitzing.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

stoicfaux
#13 - 2014-02-13 18:51:00 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Very nice Stoicfaux. Of course someone will be along shortly to contest what you are saying lol.

But this is why there are high sec mission alts, and a smallish part of the reason why almost half of the 90k characters in SOV holding alliances aren't in null sec (of course there are other reason, like cyno alts and hauler alts etc). There is no need to be out there.


the other important factor being the number of active people in system. I remember back with belt ratting a system could only handle 2 or so ratters (and i think that was a good system with 20ish belts), Anoms increase this a bit, but well only a bit.

Yup. On one hand anoms aren't scalable and are subject to sudden PvP.

On the other hand, if an Ishtar can make 70M in liquid isk running anoms, can you imagine what could be done with a Marauder?

Compared to high-sec, if the scalability and security problems were "solved", null anoms would be insane income. Especially when you consider that a Level 3 Ishtar can make ~50M isk, most of which is in LP, or that my Level 4 Vargur was making ~40M in liquid isk and the remaining 30M isk in loot and salvage. If you add in the "secure ESS" the Goons have developed, then Ishtar anom income could jump to 75M isk + 14,700 LP (worth ~12M at 800 isk/LP) for ~87M isk/hour in assets. Anom income in a marauder would most likely put level 4s to shame.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#14 - 2014-02-13 18:55:26 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

On the other hand, if an Ishtar can make 70M in liquid isk running anoms, can you imagine what could be done with a Marauder?


I'm guessing only 10%-20% better on bounties as my anom-running ishtar fits do 817 dps. But then you have loot/salvage on top.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

stoicfaux
#15 - 2014-02-13 19:42:55 UTC
Batelle wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

On the other hand, if an Ishtar can make 70M in liquid isk running anoms, can you imagine what could be done with a Marauder?


I'm guessing only 10%-20% better on bounties as my anom-running ishtar fits do 817 dps. But then you have loot/salvage on top.

The Ishtar was using Wasps, so damage projection wasn't optimal: http://eve-search.com/thread/311310-1/page/71#2101

So unless anoms spawn everything at short range, income would probably be a lot higher than 10-20%.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#16 - 2014-02-13 19:51:43 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Batelle wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

On the other hand, if an Ishtar can make 70M in liquid isk running anoms, can you imagine what could be done with a Marauder?


I'm guessing only 10%-20% better on bounties as my anom-running ishtar fits do 817 dps. But then you have loot/salvage on top.

The Ishtar was using Wasps, so damage projection wasn't optimal: http://eve-search.com/thread/311310-1/page/71#2101

So unless anoms spawn everything at short range, income would probably be a lot higher than 10-20%.



wasps move fast, should have used two navigation computers instead of 1 and an omni.

But I was referring to my ishtar, which uses gardes.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#17 - 2014-02-14 06:56:22 UTC
a properly fit and skilled vargur with implants gets over 1200dps. thats closer to 40% more dps over an ishtar and roughly the same increase in income. then theres the loot/salvage.

if you have the security a marauder should be pretty epic in null.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-02-14 10:14:14 UTC
don't tell me you did this because some ****** goon claimed that anoms can't compete with Lv 4's?
stoicfaux
#19 - 2014-02-14 14:14:10 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
don't tell me you did this because some ****** goon claimed that anoms can't compete with Lv 4's?

Some people play the game. Some people play the meta-game. And for some people, the game is how they pay their rent.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Angry Mustache
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-02-14 16:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Angry Mustache
Nicely done man.

Very solid data, and easy to comprehend.

Is it possible to conduct a similar sample on "optimum" L4 missioning, or even slightly more discretionary. For example, a station with 2 L4 agents, more cherry picking, and blitzing.

Regarding using marauders in Nullsec, they are generally not used because bastion locks you in place. When a neutral enters system, they can be on you in anywhere between 10 and 25 seconds. The one minute delay is deadly.

An official Member of the Goonswarm Federation Complaints Department.

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