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Incursions : Revisiting Assaults .
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Charadrass
Angry Germans
#21 - 2014-02-10 12:54:51 UTC
+1
ISN needs sites they can fly ;)
No seriously.
Syndic Mitthrassafis
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2014-02-10 14:47:12 UTC
+1 to this
James Tzashi
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2014-02-10 15:45:03 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
+1
ISN needs sites they can fly ;)
No seriously.


Not exactly during our EU timezone it is very easy for us to form a HQ fleet. The problem lies in our US timezone who as few active members so making the jump from a 12man fleet to 40man fleet is significant if it was possible to go from 12 to 20 to 40 i would be much easier to grow the community as you have less people waiting around.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-02-10 16:02:40 UTC
I don't really see an issue with the cruiser/BS split. That's what T3's are for.

As much as I like how it keeps Assaults open to people willing to bring along 3-4 T3's I understand that this is a source of frustration for many so I would not be opposed to this change.
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#25 - 2014-02-10 16:05:27 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
I don't really see an issue with the cruiser/BS split. That's what T3's are for.

As much as I like how it keeps Assaults open to people willing to bring along 3-4 T3's I understand that this is a source of frustration for many so I would not be opposed to this change.



It would not prevent the pilots to do them in cruisers . Anything but . IT would allow pilots to do the sites in any ship of their choice .
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-02-10 16:21:20 UTC
Kodavor wrote:
It would not prevent the pilots to do them in cruisers . Anything but . IT would allow pilots to do the sites in any ship of their choice .

Which of course means that everyone will (be forced to) just bring BS's like they currently do in VGs.
James Tzashi
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2014-02-10 17:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: James Tzashi
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Kodavor wrote:
It would not prevent the pilots to do them in cruisers . Anything but . IT would allow pilots to do the sites in any ship of their choice .

Which of course means that everyone will (be forced to) just bring BS's like they currently do in VGs.


And who is forcing you? Your not being forced to it would be the optimal thing to do. T3s can still be effectivly used in vgs, eg the legion/zealot nco fleets. My problem isn't that you have to use cruisers although that is annoying, my problem is that because you have to have cruisers in fleet for the other sites are completed slower as a result.

The only real solution I see would be removing the restriction on the gate so that you would not have to change your ship type in order to run the majority of the sites optimally.
Miles Forrester
Eire Engineers
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2014-02-10 17:32:34 UTC
An interesting change. Certainly opens up possibilities.
Second Nary
Doomheim
#29 - 2014-02-10 18:28:55 UTC
+1 Idea
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#30 - 2014-02-10 18:30:13 UTC
-1 All incursion flleets would become Battleship/Logi only, and noobs would never have a way of getting into incursions. Hard enough now for them to get into as is.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#31 - 2014-02-10 18:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Estella Osoka wrote:
-1 All incursion flleets would become Battleship/Logi only, and noobs would never have a way of getting into incursions. Hard enough now for them to get into as is.


incursions are hardly noob activity and i dont see a link between single assault site and being noob friendly if you want to buff scout sites plz be free to open thread up and see if CCP is interested in providing noob incursion content il be first to vote you up.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-02-10 19:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
James Tzashi wrote:
And who is forcing you? Your not being forced to it would be the optimal thing to do. T3s can still be effectivly used in vgs, eg the legion/zealot nco fleets. My problem isn't that you have to use cruisers although that is annoying, my problem is that because you have to have cruisers in fleet for the other sites are completed slower as a result.

The only real solution I see would be removing the restriction on the gate so that you would not have to change your ship type in order to run the majority of the sites optimally.

Who would force you? The FC that's who. And for exactly the reasons you stated. Having cruisers in the fleet slows down the completion of sites. Hence if cruisers are not required they will not be used/allowed in the fleet. That's why you don't see T3 fits on the ISN or Valhalla Project web sites. That's also why you don't see fleet boosters on grid. If they were on grid it would slow down site completion and/or lower the payout.

Try and join up with a really pro shield community in a Tengu or Loki and see what happens. Sure some might take you. But they will pressure you really hard to get a BS. After all, why would you take a 600-700 DPS T3 when you can take a 1200+ DPS BS that also projects its DPS much better to boot. It's not like the better tracking on medium weapons means anything with Vindi and Bhaalgorn webs on the field. The simple fact is that a BS is a better incursion boat than a T3 95% of the time. So if you are running VGs or HQs your ship choices are BS and logistics. For Assaults the choices are T3, BS, and logistics. By removing the gate restrictions you are removing a choice because BS are better than T3.

The real fix is to make cruiser hulls actually useful in incursion sites in a way that BS's are not. The current method of creating choices by arbitrarily putting restrictions on the gates is stupid and creates frustration by forcing all the ISK/hr worshiping people to only run VGs and HQs. But removing the gate restrictions really isn't much better as that just gets rid of the choices entirely. However for the sake of removing frustration I can get behind it.

Then again, the pirate BS hulls and their supremely powerful/useful webs are up for a rebalance at some point.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-02-10 19:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Estella Osoka wrote:
-1 All incursion flleets would become Battleship/Logi only, and noobs would never have a way of getting into incursions. Hard enough now for them to get into as is.

As much as I like the T3 choice this isn't really a valid argument. T3's aren't any more noob friendly than BS's. In fact they are probably even less noob friendly. And no, T1 cruisers and BCs, which are noob friendly, are not going to cut it.

If you want to make incursions more accessible to low SP players then you need a totally new type of site somewhere between scout and vanguard. Just make the ISK/hr better than missions but lower than the current sites. That way the vets will mostly stay out of it.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#34 - 2014-02-10 19:21:49 UTC
Love the idea +1


It might be nice to see scouts revisited too.
Make them BC and under only with a bit more challenge and reward.
(( 4-6 ships needed ))
Would help those worried about it being all BS's.


Imagine all incursion sites being useful. Shocked
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#35 - 2014-02-10 19:34:56 UTC
+1 BSs in VGs but not in an assault site is crazy.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#36 - 2014-02-10 19:35:17 UTC
All Incursion sites are useful. It is thay FCs can't be arsed to have their people reship to fit the site conditions. Need more sites like the NCN. Noobs do not have to be new players in particular. Not every player trains up to fly a BS with T2 guns. Some train straight for a T3 cruiser as it is less of a train.
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#37 - 2014-02-10 20:05:27 UTC
Look at it this way . If something works then it is used . if it does not then it is not used . NCN's are not used . It does not matter what the intentions of the developers were when they designed the site . What matters is that they are not used . What matters also is that a very simple and small change would make them used .

Best regards
Kodavor .
Ashokay
Galaxy Gravity Technologies
#38 - 2014-02-10 20:14:44 UTC
+1

-
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#39 - 2014-02-10 20:39:47 UTC
Secondly, the NCN has roughly 2.5 times the EHP to burn through of any other assault site, and is a spike to ~8500DPS on grid at the start of the final pocket IIRC .

It is brokenly out of step with the other assault sites, especially with the forced reshiping to t3/t1BC/HAC for 1/6-1/3 your DPS depending on how well or badly your fleet did its logistics (Really mean hauling and homework.). The best possible t3s and attack BCs are putting out ~1200 DPS for double digit billions in deadspace and officer mods, while the average vindi pilot is putting out 1500+ with a t2 fit, and similar application ranges.

In short, the mechanic is bad. It was likely designed to force fleets to take newbies, but has ended up forcing people out of the site type entirely. When you look at the EHP/isk ratios, the other two assault sites take top prize, with the sniper heavy

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-02-10 20:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
James Baboli wrote:
In short, the mechanic is bad. It was likely designed to force fleets to take newbies, but has ended up forcing people out of the site type entirely. When you look at the EHP/isk ratios, the other two assault sites take top prize, with the sniper heavy

I agree. The mechanic is very bad. It would make more sense to allow BS hulls into both sides of the NCN and then restrict VGs to BC hulls and smaller. And then modify the difficulty and the rewards of Assault and VG sites accordingly so they are about equally hard and equally rewarding if run with a proper fleet. Then people can decide which style of game play they prefer and join the appropriate fleet type.

I would rather see smaller hulls made useful by the nature of the targets in a site than through gate restrictions. But I can't think of a good way to do that without nerfing the web bonuses on the Vindi and Bhaalgorn. Bonuses which I feel give them unique and legitimate roles in other areas, like PVP.