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So, all these changes, but...
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General Sauron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2011-11-10 16:22:39 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't... They both go out into the same system and make money, don't you think just from a gameplay point of view that the guy who can't defend himself and is totally geared towards making money should make more than the guy in the combat ship ?

Just as a general principle?


Not groups of people. Two groups of activities. One activity yields decent ISK/hour, can be performed in a decent ship, and interfaces well skill-wise with other areas (say, combat). Second activity gives poor returns, is done in a ship which dies if someone looks at you the wrong way, and requires months of training which do not benefit anything outside said activity.

Yet every day hundreds and hundreds of people consciously choose the second one.

WHY!?

That's your reason why mining is so pitiful in terms of ISK. Because people are for some strange reason still willing to do it for the little ISK to be made. EVE is a player-driven economy. This means that as long as there are people willing to mine at 15 MISK/hour, mining will make you 15 MISK per hour. If they instead of whining on the forums started doing something else, the supply of "cheap" minerals would soon be exhausted, and the value of minerals - and the profit from mining - would increase.


The answer to "why" is blatantly obvious. If you are mining in high sec, you can go make a sandwich, eat, and come back in 30 minutes. Or you can read a book and switch roids every half hour. Mining is an activity that basically requires minimal attention and people can do other things at the same time. Try going afk in combat missions, with the exception of a well tanked drone ship, and see how far that gets you.

The only thing I can think of that might increase mining profitability is to reduce the amount of salvaged materials from combat missions. I have no data on how many materials come from combat missions, but even assuming 20%, that will only increase mineral amounts by 20% or so.

For those that complain about low mineral prices, the answer is simple. Stop mining and go do something else. Or mine and still do something else at the same time.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#22 - 2011-11-10 17:15:28 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't... They both go out into the same system and make money, don't you think just from a gameplay point of view that the guy who can't defend himself and is totally geared towards making money should make more than the guy in the combat ship ?

Just as a general principle?


Not groups of people. Two groups of activities. One activity yields decent ISK/hour, can be performed in a decent ship, and interfaces well skill-wise with other areas (say, combat). Second activity gives poor returns, is done in a ship which dies if someone looks at you the wrong way, and requires months of training which do not benefit anything outside said activity.

Yet every day hundreds and hundreds of people consciously choose the second one.

WHY!?

That's your reason why mining is so pitiful in terms of ISK. Because people are for some strange reason still willing to do it for the little ISK to be made. EVE is a player-driven economy. This means that as long as there are people willing to mine at 15 MISK/hour, mining will make you 15 MISK per hour. If they instead of whining on the forums started doing something else, the supply of "cheap" minerals would soon be exhausted, and the value of minerals - and the profit from mining - would increase.


Hmm, so who knows about this? CCP market analysts or some players like Akita T may know the source of the most minerals... pve nul / low versus mining in high sec versus mining in nul sec. I think mining high sec would produce the most, but that is likely a lot of bots. Lets wait for CCP to perma ban all mining bots and check again.

I have no reason to mine or really play at all anymore, so I will probably end up quitting eve. CCP has not cleared out all the bots in the eight months since fanfest; its not likely to happen any time soon.
General Sauron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-11-10 17:42:35 UTC
I keep hearing that there are alot of mining bots, but does anyone really have any proof that they exist?

Even if there are mining bots, do they contribute to a significant part of the mineral supply and affect the price?

Or perhaps a better question, if botting does exist and/or is hard to get rid of, why mine at all? Why not just set up a bot when you arent around (Yes, besides the fact that I know, you arent supposed to)?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#24 - 2011-11-10 17:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Revolution Rising wrote:

Look the point of that part of the conversation is that mining ships are less combat able than combat ships - derrr. So therefore there should be some compensation for the risk involved as opposed to what ratters have to manage.


Yes, Industrial-oriented ships are less combat-able. On the other side of the coin, combat-oriented ships are less industrial-able. It's a tradeoff on what you want to be able to do.

Haul nearly a million m3 worth of crap -- no offensive capabilities whatsoever.
Haul up to approximately 200k of crap -- limited offensive / defensive capabilitles.
Mine stupid large amounts of ore EVERY MINUTE -- limited to fair offensive / defensive capabilities.
Throw out stupid large amounts of damage -- limited to fair industrial capabilities.

this does not mean that there is inherently any MORE risk to you by undocking ... just that you have an inherently larger weakness in the event of a fight. Undocking carries risk for everyone.

Revolution Rising wrote:

Large organisations by definition are better defended than small ones (safety in numbers - for the peanut gallery once again). However, many people prefer a smaller organisation in which to play for various reasons ranging from not just being a number, to being able to pvp with small gangs rather than large.


Yeah, what's your point with this? There are no rules that state one has to be in a mega-alliance, or that one cannot work with non-corp members on things...


Revolution Rising wrote:

Keeping things the same might be well and good for many people who have independant incomes in game - it might even be better for ccp - I notice the prices of plexes only rises.

However, it doesn't make for a good mining experience.


Kill the )(*@$@# bots.

Mining ALONE isn't that great of an experience. Hisec/newbspace is almost completely devoid of miners right now ... I got bored yesterday, threw an alt together and went exploring newbspace as a newb rather than my normal 4 year self. Figured i'd have a better chance of catching people in the belts that way ... wouldn't appear as an obvious threat.

I saw ... get this ... TEN people mining across about forty belts ... some of which had 100+k units of dense veld in them.

WTF is there ANY Dense Veldspar doing in 0.8 systems at 00 Eve Time?!

Revolution Rising wrote:
Many of us take a more holistic view of our time online. We extrapolate upon our actions with regard to the butterfly effect. It makes us feel better to be mining rather than ratting/missioning. Knowing the minerals we collect are used for this or that, or even creating those new products ourselves and selling those in specific areas of the game to help our respective corps/alliances.


You don't need to explain this to me.
Look me up in game sometime ... specifically look at my certificates.

Revolution Rising wrote:
It would be nice to have the risk rewarded, rather than having the extra risk we take on by flying mining vessels poopoo'd by CCP and the peanut gallery/trolls.

This was the point of the conversation.

I totally agree that increasing yield is not the answer.
Increasing minerals required for ships is not the answer.
Having belts only be able to be scanned down rather than static belts might help for a while, but I dare say the botting programs would adapt ?

Possibly a mix of these approaches might help ?


Please, for the love of his holiness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster tell me what RISK there is in the act of mining?
All I am hearing right now is "b-b-b-but the other kids are using their toys to break my toys". Do something about it, there are ways to avoid ganks.

Increasing yield will simply make mining even more worthless.
Increasing mineral needs will work in the short term.
Grav belts will help.

The best fix to the problem is a multi-faceted approach. This is not the best fix, but it helps:
1. Make it take :effort: to get the rocks.

  • Veld/Scord should be easy, anyone can do it ... penalise barges a bit when mining this stuff (e.g. they accidentally 20% of it or something -- seriously, you're mining 2500+ m3/minute in a hulk ... you'll live with losing some).
  • Plag/Omber/Kernite/Pyrox should be do-able in a frig, but cruisers and barges are better suited
  • Jaspet/Hedbergite/Hemorphite should NOT be do-able in a frig, cruisers/BS have trouble too, barges/exhumers best suited
  • nullsec stays pretty much left alone.

2. now that it's harder to get the ores, make refining harder too. and I mean, by a not-insignificant amount. It doesn't make any sense that non-industrial corporations have 50% base stations... drop them to 40% (or worse), even remove a lot of the refineries.
3. fix drone poo and module refining to make that less lucrative.
4. Give industrialists incentive to fight over resources and/or band together to get what they need -- stop the daily respawn outside of the 12 rookie systems will help.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-11-10 18:22:33 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Look the point of that part of the conversation is that mining ships are less combat able than combat ships - derrr. So therefore there should be some compensation for the risk involved as opposed to what ratters have to manage.

The compensation is that you can fit them with strip miners and collect resources with them. Why would you be trying to fight in an exhumer? That's just silly...

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-11-10 18:50:13 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Mining is still the red headed stepchild of the ugly 2 headed stripper you were really drunk and slept with once ?

So I go out in a t1 bc even and can rat for hours with drops and salvage bringing in twice (at least) as much in cash. I can defend myself at least reasonbly well.

Mining I can't defend myself and bring in half as much ?

That about sum it up ?

I'd really love to see that 2007 or whatever it was update to industry we were supposed to get but got sidetracked.


You should not mine at all, there are already enough bots doing so in null and nobody to gank them, tell them thx.
Hope CCP will finally change drone drops for crap stuff and bounty.
Sebero Sinak
Doomheim
#27 - 2011-11-10 23:20:44 UTC
General Sauron wrote:
I keep hearing that there are alot of mining bots, but does anyone really have any proof that they exist?

Even if there are mining bots, do they contribute to a significant part of the mineral supply and affect the price?

Or perhaps a better question, if botting does exist and/or is hard to get rid of, why mine at all? Why not just set up a bot when you arent around (Yes, besides the fact that I know, you arent supposed to)?


I've hunted bot's ...occasionally you'll see 3 hulks from the same corp working 3 different belts, no hauler, no leadership boosts. They fill cargohold, dump at station and repeat - but for me finding the mining bots was harder and there seemed to be less of them.

The good isk seemed to be the lvl 4 transportation bots / RMTers..they were easier to find in their Bestowers on 23/7 always working out of the same station.

If you know how to find the mining bots better then i do please give a heads up.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#28 - 2011-11-11 02:31:47 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Not groups of people. Two groups of activities. One activity yields decent ISK/hour, can be performed in a decent ship, and interfaces well skill-wise with other areas (say, combat). Second activity gives poor returns, is done in a ship which dies if someone looks at you the wrong way, and requires months of training which do not benefit anything outside said activity.

Yet every day hundreds and hundreds of people consciously choose the second one.

WHY!?

That's your reason why mining is so pitiful in terms of ISK. Because people are for some strange reason still willing to do it for the little ISK to be made. EVE is a player-driven economy. This means that as long as there are people willing to mine at 15 MISK/hour, mining will make you 15 MISK per hour. If they instead of whining on the forums started doing something else, the supply of "cheap" minerals would soon be exhausted, and the value of minerals - and the profit from mining - would increase.


I agree right up until you said WHY lol...

Fact is it's still an RPG and plenty of people like to use the various models for income that are available.

Why shouldn't they mine?

Not everyone necessarily wants to min/max, but at the same time, not everyone wants to get F'd in the A for doing something the game says is a reasonable alternative for income.

I don't mine personally, however, I'd like to at least see the day on the horizon when I CAN again.

.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#29 - 2011-11-11 16:21:23 UTC
mining profitability simplified.
Mining is done with multiple accounts, semi afk at times when you would normally not be even playing. 10 mil isk an hour during hours that you would otherwise not be playing is still a good return.

I have my toons mining or hauling while I am at work. I do not have the attention to give the game to run missions or rat, but I can semi afk all 4 accounts mining with very low risk.10 mil an hour per account is still 40 mil an hour. And if done at work I can not spend that time running missions without a high risk of getting popped while afk. I have tried it. it does not work.

Even If I am giving the game my full concentration, try running L4 missions on 4 characters at the same time. It can not be done. you can run the same mission with said 4 characters and get them done faster, two combat pilots, a logistics, and a salvager. This is what I normally do ATK. But it does not arn you 40 mil x 4. maybe 40 mil in half hour with fast turnaround times. but if I had 5-6 accounts or more. it would be more profitable to run a personal mining fleet.

It is not possible to make good profits solo mining with one account. although there are a few players out there that enjoy it and do solo mine with dreams of growing into a solo indy corp making big bucks. But seriously, the players making good isk mining are multiboxing running several accounts. Mining is profitable when done in this way. there are many many players in EVE with multiple accounts. I even know a few with over 10 accounts. Once properly set up with PI and research agents an account can easily pay for it self while adding another hulk pilot to the owners fleet. I expect to get up to 8-10 accounts myself within the next year. I pay two subs. each time I get an alt account to a point where it can self sustain buying a plex a month with minimal time investment I start a new account.
Dawn Alduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-11-12 01:23:47 UTC
There are a lot of great responses and rebuttals here, but really if miners want to make more money the simple answer is the removal of Compounds/Alloys from Drones.

I would (this is a guess, but seen some research done on it) say actually about 50% of current minerals come from Drones/Drone Regions. Its the alternative to bounties for those that don't know, ships drop them instead of providing a Concord Bounty, and these all contain minerals, and not just 'some' minerals like reprocessed meta items.

An example would be a drone battleship (1 kill, 1 minute to kill it)

50X Reprocessed to: 4096 units of tritanium, 1024 units of pyerite, 64 units of isogen and 4 units of zydrine

So...

204,800 Tritanium
51,200 Pyerite
3,200 Isogen
200 Zydrine

Average Value of say a 1M bounty Battleship - fairly common even belting.
1,180,160 Isk value in minerals as a Bounty.

In my eyes this is where the miner's lose this battle quickly and terribly.

Show me a miner that can pull those mineral in 1 minute...nope.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#31 - 2011-11-12 13:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Removal of drone region mineral drops is only half the equation.

Even if you do that and mineral prices double - thereby doubling my income - it also doubles the income of botters. This doubles the amount of isk devaluation due to those botters over time.

Again, along with the isk devaluation due to plexes will eventually lead to a market meltdown. Isk values continue to drop.

Plex prices therefore increase and markets become smaller for everyone who is not botting.

Imagine you lived in a tiny country with 1b annual GDP.
You earned 50,000 per year through normal means.
Next door to you lived someone with a printing press and he prints 500,000 a year.

That means each year the amount of money circulating increases 450,000 with zero effort on anyone's part.

A year down the track everything is increasing in price by .5% per annum.

In-game it's worse because these guys and drone regions have made the mining community smaller and smaller each year. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that 50% of the minerals are now provided by botters.

If that is so... imagine the increase in pricing per year AFTER taking the mineral drops out of the drone regions, thereby increasing the income of those botters?

.
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
#32 - 2011-11-12 20:39:08 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Not groups of people. Two groups of activities. One activity yields decent ISK/hour, can be performed in a decent ship, and interfaces well skill-wise with other areas (say, combat). Second activity gives poor returns, is done in a ship which dies if someone looks at you the wrong way, and requires months of training which do not benefit anything outside said activity.

Yet every day hundreds and hundreds of people consciously choose the second one.

WHY!?

That's your reason why mining is so pitiful in terms of ISK. Because people are for some strange reason still willing to do it for the little ISK to be made. EVE is a player-driven economy. This means that as long as there are people willing to mine at 15 MISK/hour, mining will make you 15 MISK per hour. If they instead of whining on the forums started doing something else, the supply of "cheap" minerals would soon be exhausted, and the value of minerals - and the profit from mining - would increase.
THIS! The low profitability of mining is due to it being too easy to perform so that too many people doing it, thus leading to a dump in market prices. Increasing the amount of minerals for ships would work for about a month, then new miners would flow into the market and the deficit would be covered, thus prices would again plummet.

Miners are the cause of the profitability.

"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."

"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka
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