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Equality of humans and the Federation

Author
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#41 - 2014-02-07 22:06:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
At least you possess some reading comprehension. And to imagine what you'd be like without those damn institutions? Education is increasingly undervalued these days.

-Eran
Jean Roden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-02-07 22:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean Roden
Eran Mintor wrote:
At least you possess some reading comprehension. And to imagine what you'd be like without those damn institutions? Education is increasingly undervalued these days.

-Eran

Sure, sure, sure. I get your criticism was not point 1. By the way which means that the old question still stands: So how do you divide humans? How are they unequal, or lets say in which way?

Scherezad wrote:
Yes, sir, that's correct. Your third premise is wrong, invalidating your conclusion. May I suggest re-examining evolutionary theory with the help of an evolutionary biologist? It should go a long way in helping you understand the broad-scale implications of genetic propagation through populations, including the presence of large social structures and apparent altruism.

Alternatively, neurobiology can be very helpful in identifying behaviour motivations, and could give you a new perspective on why we act the way we do.

Best of luck, sir :)


I hope you can help.


How would you divide humans?
How does natural selection work in the State?1
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-02-07 22:24:03 UTC
Jean Roden wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Mr. Roden (if that is your real name), why have you not commented on the various discrepancies in your argument and your identity? Are you not capable of defending yourself, or are you acknowledging that you are a fraud?

What you talking about?


For all:
-Donate some ISK on my account with the reference "Less state, more invisible hand of nature."



1. You claim to be conservative yet graduated from the most liberal school in the country.
2. You claim to be from "flyover" country yet fail to realize very few people in such parts of the country are ethnic Gallentean, speak Gallentean, or have Gauron surnames like Roden.
3. You seem completely oblivious to actually Gallente culture despite claiming to try and preserve it.

And ontop of all that, you are literally wrong about everything.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Jean Roden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-02-07 22:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean Roden
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Jean Roden wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Mr. Roden (if that is your real name), why have you not commented on the various discrepancies in your argument and your identity? Are you not capable of defending yourself, or are you acknowledging that you are a fraud?

What you talking about?


For all:
-Donate some ISK on my account with the reference "Less state, more invisible hand of nature."



1. You claim to be conservative yet graduated from the most liberal school in the country.
2. You claim to be from "flyover" country yet fail to realize very few people in such parts of the country are ethnic Gallentean, speak Gallentean, or have Gauron surnames like Roden.
3. You seem completely oblivious to actually Gallente culture despite claiming to try and preserve it.



As long you are happy with my first point, you are the person which does not understand the Federation. And I have not seen any criticism from you about that point.




As mention before only Mirelle Lagan saw a problem with it.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#45 - 2014-02-07 22:51:00 UTC
Jean Roden wrote:
How would you divide humans?
How does natural selection work in the State?

Oh dear. I'm not at all an evolutionary biologist, sir. I know some neuroscience and some genetics, but not so much as an expert in the field. I can try to explain what I know, but you should really discuss it with someone more educated ont he fine details.

Humans aren't really "divided" in the manner you suggest. As the estimable Dr Gridherst earlier mentioned, genetic differences between humans and our closest kin species is somewhere around 2%. This is still thousands of genes, and each one represents a different "division" that a person could fit into. What's more, genes interact with one another, and other nuclear components also contribute to morphology. Combinatorial analysis of all of these factors makes it pretty much impossible to produce a simple "racial categorization" of humans. It simply doesn't work that way.

To your second question; natural selection works in the State exactly as it does anywhere else, sir.

To the more general theme you seem to be driving for - if I may paraphrase, "Institutions that allow individuals to survive where they would have otherwise died are bad." Is this correct? Can we continue on this statement?

To this more general theme, I have a few points to consider

1) Survival is often about chance as much as it is about evolutionary pressure. By helping the individual whom chance betrays, that individual may survive to provide utility to their fellows, helping all improve and thrive. Their death weakens us all.

2) Oftentimes, beneficial morphologies can co-express with detrimental morphologies. A genetic structure which expresses itself as a certain brilliance for logical thinking may also express as a physiological flaw, for example. By saving these individuals from death we preserve their benefits, which help the community as a whole.

3) Individuals with detrimental genetic structures can also carry within them recessive beneficial structures. By keeping these structures within the gene pool of a society, that society maintains a healthy reserve of alternative morphologies that can be expressed in later generations.

4) Environments change. Maintaining a diverse gene pool, complete with genetic structures which are at present detrimental, ensure that the population maintains maximum adaptability in the face of dramatic change. Praise the Ancestor who carries that burden, for they may one day save your heritage.

Hopefully you can understand why we as a species have altruism within us, and why we should be overjoyed by this fact, and not fight against it.
Jean Roden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-02-07 23:09:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean Roden
Scherezad wrote:
Jean Roden wrote:
How would you divide humans?
How does natural selection work in the State?

Oh dear. I'm not at all an evolutionary biologist, sir. I know some neuroscience and some genetics, but not so much as an expert in the field. I can try to explain what I know, but you should really discuss it with someone more educated ont he fine details.

Humans aren't really "divided" in the manner you suggest. As the estimable Dr Gridherst earlier mentioned, genetic differences between humans and our closest kin species is somewhere around 2%. This is still thousands of genes, and each one represents a different "division" that a person could fit into. What's more, genes interact with one another, and other nuclear components also contribute to morphology. Combinatorial analysis of all of these factors makes it pretty much impossible to produce a simple "racial categorization" of humans. It simply doesn't work that way.

To your second question; natural selection works in the State exactly as it does anywhere else, sir.

To the more general theme you seem to be driving for - if I may paraphrase, "Institutions that allow individuals to survive where they would have otherwise died are bad." Is this correct? Can we continue on this statement?

To this more general theme, I have a few points to consider

1) Survival is often about chance as much as it is about evolutionary pressure. By helping the individual whom chance betrays, that individual may survive to provide utility to their fellows, helping all improve and thrive. Their death weakens us all.

2) Oftentimes, beneficial morphologies can co-express with detrimental morphologies. A genetic structure which expresses itself as a certain brilliance for logical thinking may also express as a physiological flaw, for example. By saving these individuals from death we preserve their benefits, which help the community as a whole.

3) Individuals with detrimental genetic structures can also carry within them recessive beneficial structures. By keeping these structures within the gene pool of a society, that society maintains a healthy reserve of alternative morphologies that can be expressed in later generations.

4) Environments change. Maintaining a diverse gene pool, complete with genetic structures which are at present detrimental, ensure that the population maintains maximum adaptability in the face of dramatic change. Praise the Ancestor who carries that burden, for they may one day save your heritage.

Hopefully you can understand why we as a species have altruism within us, and why we should be overjoyed by this fact, and not fight against it.


I get our points. I really love the Idea, that a society weakens itself by not using the full width of its genetic pool (point 1-4). It is very well thought out and I have to say I like your line: "Institutions that allow individuals to survive where they would have otherwise died are bad." It explains the old point better.

Small question: Those the caldari non-entity caste enjoys help from institutions? Could a non-help mean that society is weakens itself. As you mention in point 1:..."individual may survive to provide utility to their fellows, helping all improve and thrive. Their death weakens us all."

I have to say Im not an expert in caldari society and its divisions. So I may get things wrong.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-02-07 23:25:53 UTC
Doesn't know anything about the Federation- is of Gauron descent and hosts a well regarded comedy news program. Seems legit.

So you're not going to clear up inconstancies with your identity? Very well. Guess its safe to assume you are a liar and a coward.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#48 - 2014-02-07 23:34:30 UTC
Jean Roden wrote:
Eran Mintor wrote:
At least you possess some reading comprehension. And to imagine what you'd be like without those damn institutions? Education is increasingly undervalued these days.

-Eran

Sure, sure, sure. I get your criticism was not point 1. By the way which means that the old question still stands: So how do you divide humans? How are they unequal, or lets say in which way?


Ms. Scherezad made some great points already which I could not have said better.

As for how I divide humans, I don't. It's up to God to make those decisions. People are unequl in many ways, from intelligence to height. It doesn't mean a whole lot without some sort of context. As Ms. Scherezad pointed out, even those with the most desireable traits could face a rude fate. You could be the brightest and strongest but it doesn't change the fact a lightening bolt could still kill you just as easy. Natural selection is just as much about chance than it is survival of the fittest.

-Eran
Jean Roden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-02-07 23:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean Roden
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Doesn't know anything about the Federation- is of Gauron descent and hosts a well regarded comedy news program. Seems legit.

So you're not going to clear up inconstancies with your identity? Very well. Guess its safe to assume you are a liar and a coward.


Have you not answer the topic already? Or lets say had it brought down to two points: Bad troll or a lying idiot.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:


Oh and here's the best part, everything you cite in an attempt to prove yourself right actusally proves you wrong. You're either a really bad troll or a lying idiot.


Two stupid questions: Is it Garoun or Gauron? Whats the name of the thread: Equality of humans and the Federation? I really can not read it, my FTL neocom is cutting the upper-line.

In general, as I already told: "As long you are happy with my first point, you are the person which does not understand the Federation. And I have not seen any criticism from you about that point." A caldari would not have a problem with inequality, but a Fed-citizen should.



By the way, thanks for all the donations. As for now I have to go, so see you folks maybe one day again.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#50 - 2014-02-07 23:53:31 UTC
I'm glad to have been of help, though again - I'm not an evolutionary biologist. I do suggest you do your own research and talk to one!

Jean Roden wrote:
Small question: Those the caldari non-entity caste enjoys help from institutions? Could a non-help mean that society is weakens itself. As you mention in point 1:..."individual may survive to provide utility to their fellows, helping all improve and thrive. Their death weakens us all."

I have to say Im not an expert in caldari society and its divisions. So I may get things wrong.

It's alright to admit that you aren't an expert in something - it's a good thing to say when it's true! Your error is fairly straightforward - there is no 'non-entity caste' in the State. There are those who have decided to not participate in the State, however. Is that who you mean? They have chosen to not participate in the State, and therefore haven't got access to the institutions and services that the Deksam provide.

I'm really not sure how that applies to your topic, though, sir.
Jean Roden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-02-07 23:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean Roden
Scherezad wrote:
I'm glad to have been of help, though again - I'm not an evolutionary biologist. I do suggest you do your own research and talk to one!

Jean Roden wrote:
Small question: Those the caldari non-entity caste enjoys help from institutions? Could a non-help mean that society is weakens itself. As you mention in point 1:..."individual may survive to provide utility to their fellows, helping all improve and thrive. Their death weakens us all."

I have to say Im not an expert in caldari society and its divisions. So I may get things wrong.

It's alright to admit that you aren't an expert in something - it's a good thing to say when it's true! Your error is fairly straightforward - there is no 'non-entity caste' in the State. There are those who have decided to not participate in the State, however. Is that who you mean? They have chosen to not participate in the State, and therefore haven't got access to the institutions and services that the Deksam provide.

I'm really not sure how that applies to your topic, though, sir.

Small question: "They have chosen to not participate in the State, and therefore haven't got access to the institutions and services that the Deksam provide." Those this "phenomena" weaken the collective/state/group/firm (as you mention: A society does weakens itself by not using the full width of its genetic pool (point 1-4))? By the way nice line: "who have decided to not participate in the State" Big smile



Now, I sadly have really to go.Sad
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#52 - 2014-02-08 00:05:33 UTC
We can hardly force them to stay, sir; we aren't about to enslave them. All we can do is wish them well.

Happy travels, sir.
Anslo
Scope Works
#53 - 2014-02-08 00:07:37 UTC
This guy's pissed off this many people in a couple hours? He's gonna go far.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#54 - 2014-02-08 00:15:15 UTC
Before you start talking for all ethnic Gallente, you might want to consult with them first. As an ethnic Gallente, I find your stance rather short-sighted if not completely ignorant and its only purpose appears to be to fuel some sort of divide between ethnic Gallente and everyone else.

I do not feel particularly superior for being a particular bloodline. Genetics and lineage, while somewhat important for some, do not define a people. Rather what they have done with the blessings and the curses that have been given them. We Gallente do have a right to be proud by the accomplishments of our ancestors, do not however ascribe what they accomplished to genetics.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-02-08 01:09:25 UTC
Jean Roden wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Doesn't know anything about the Federation- is of Gauron descent and hosts a well regarded comedy news program. Seems legit.

So you're not going to clear up inconstancies with your identity? Very well. Guess its safe to assume you are a liar and a coward.


Have you not answer the topic already? Or lets say had it brought down to two points: Bad troll or a lying idiot.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:


Oh and here's the best part, everything you cite in an attempt to prove yourself right actusally proves you wrong. You're either a really bad troll or a lying idiot.


Two stupid questions: Is it Garoun or Gauron? Whats the name of the thread: Equality of humans and the Federation? I really can not read it, my FTL neocom is cutting the upper-line.

In general, as I already told: "As long you are happy with my first point, you are the person which does not understand the Federation. And I have not seen any criticism from you about that point." A caldari would not have a problem with inequality, but a Fed-citizen should.



By the way, thanks for all the donations. As for now I have to go, so see you folks maybe one day again.


I already answered your question. You are either a liar, a fool, or both.

It is Garoun. I apologize for the typo.

You're leaving? Dont come back until you've read a book.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#56 - 2014-02-08 05:23:58 UTC
So I was right...you were just causing a stir to get ISK.

Disappointing.

-Eran
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#57 - 2014-02-08 05:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
...Another one?... Makers Breath... *an animated emote of a door being slammed and the Welcome mat being replaced by landmines is seen*

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#58 - 2014-02-08 07:00:40 UTC
Anslo wrote:
This guy's pissed off this many people in a couple hours? He's gonna go far.

With talent like that, he may yet rule the cluster one day... Or at least be able to finance some heavy string-pulling....Straight

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Kohiko Sun
Stormcrows
#59 - 2014-02-08 07:03:28 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
This thread is going places and fast.
Anslo wrote:
This guy's pissed off this many people in a couple hours? He's gonna go far.


But, is it going to the left or to the right? And, does the Outrider fly to the left of her caravan? These are very important questions.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#60 - 2014-02-08 07:30:34 UTC
Someone set this guy up on a date with Diana Kim.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0