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Reactive Armor Hardener Cap Scaling (Paper Cut 1001)

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Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-02-14 17:17:59 UTC
Phaade wrote:
This.

What were they thinking.....yet again lol


TBH I think they were trying to hole in it with a lot of other skills that make you less cap stable as your skill gets better (which have been mentioned through out the thread) but the difference is I don't REALLY get any benefit out of going one or two seconds faster at 4 and 5 due to the resistance profile taking the averages over the period of time. After a while, especially in 1v1, you've already got the profile figured out and additional changes are unnecessary, so you're just costing yourself more cap.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-02-14 19:14:26 UTC
Completely agree with the OP. on an active tanked ship, capacitor use equals lost effective EHP*. It makes no sense at all that better skills equate to fewer effective EHP.

* explanation: while you are burning cap boosters to run a local repair module, each cap booster is effectively more armour. Thus cap saving equals more overall hit points.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#43 - 2014-02-14 20:48:03 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Completely agree with the OP. on an active tanked ship, capacitor use equals lost effective EHP*. It makes no sense at all that better skills equate to fewer effective EHP.

* explanation: while you are burning cap boosters to run a local repair module, each cap booster is effectively more armour. Thus cap saving equals more overall hit points.


indeed what is even worse is the smaller the ship the harder it is too use as it will drain your cap so hard it is completly out of balance.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#44 - 2014-02-14 22:06:34 UTC
So where are we at with this? Flat capacitor usage regardless of skill level?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-02-14 23:51:39 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So where are we at with this? Flat capacitor usage regardless of skill level?


That's one option; it's the least interesting but also the easiest to implement.

Another option that I've thought was interesting was cap cost based on the amount of change that occurs in the resistance profile, from 0 GJ to the full 35 GJ.

Either option would be an improvement over the pseudo-penalization that's occurring now imo.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#46 - 2014-02-15 04:12:26 UTC
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
That's one option; it's the least interesting but also the easiest to implement.

I guess that means it's unlikely CCP will implement it then...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#47 - 2014-02-15 04:44:31 UTC
Good idea. Thanks!

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#48 - 2014-02-15 05:15:10 UTC
Fully supported.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#49 - 2014-02-15 10:42:31 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So where are we at with this? Flat capacitor usage regardless of skill level?


well as it is now its only usable on BS and capital ships. i think that this is an issue that needs to be fixed. this can be done the way i posted earlier by making different versions 1 for frigate and destroyer 1 for cruiser and battle cruiser and 1 for battleship and capital that way you can give it cap use that is more appropriate to the ship.

on a side note i would like to add that i find the cap use regardless of what i posted above this ridiculously high if you compare the skill at lvl 4 and 5 the benefits from heaving it on lvl 5 is not that huge but the cap difference is huge, if you ask me too huge.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-02-15 10:43:15 UTC
I can get behind this. Sounds good.
PaulsAvatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-02-15 15:02:40 UTC
This module could use some love because as it stands the skill/module combination doesn't make sense. My friend specifically didn't train the skill so it'd saved cap on his hungry amarr ships. This is one of the few skills where there is a benefit to never training and these skills don't make sense. There should never be a benefit to not training a skill.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#52 - 2014-02-15 16:52:58 UTC
PaulsAvatar wrote:
This module could use some love because as it stands the skill/module combination doesn't make sense. My friend specifically didn't train the skill so it'd saved cap on his hungry amarr ships. This is one of the few skills where there is a benefit to never training and these skills don't make sense. There should never be a benefit to not training a skill.


this, i have it at lvl 4 and want to train it to 5 so if the T2 version comes i can use it but the cap use prevents me from doing this. my alt is dedicated cap pilot so i trained it on him to 5 for a carrier the cap difference is not an issue

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-02-15 17:22:26 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
PaulsAvatar wrote:
This module could use some love because as it stands the skill/module combination doesn't make sense. My friend specifically didn't train the skill so it'd saved cap on his hungry amarr ships. This is one of the few skills where there is a benefit to never training and these skills don't make sense. There should never be a benefit to not training a skill.


this, i have it at lvl 4 and want to train it to 5 so if the T2 version comes i can use it but the cap use prevents me from doing this. my alt is dedicated cap pilot so i trained it on him to 5 for a carrier the cap difference is not an issue



I love this mod, even with the ridiculous cap usage, but it brought my Proteus from naturally being 55% cap stable with the MWD running to I THINK 3m15 cap stable with everything running? Still a long time, but that's a huge drop for a hardener.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#54 - 2014-02-17 10:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
Svodola Darkfury wrote:

I love this mod, even with the ridiculous cap usage, but it brought my Proteus from naturally being 55% cap stable with the MWD running to I THINK 3m15 cap stable with everything running? Still a long time, but that's a huge drop for a hardener.
Svo.


Try this module on a frigate... it consumes almost as much cap as a small armor repper. Which is really crippling.

In fact the Reactive Armor Hardener is currently the ONLY working ANTI-MISSILE protection you can get, which makes it really valuable on frigates if you want to fight these pesky missile spammers. CCP really needs to fix it.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-02-17 20:22:53 UTC
Monday bump curious about dev response.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-02-20 18:19:46 UTC
Thursday bump. It's not the biggest concern in the world but we've got a lot of players here who are curious for an answer. Okay it's just me. But I still would like an answer :)

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#57 - 2014-02-20 20:56:55 UTC
One time bump to fix forum.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#58 - 2014-02-22 15:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellendras Silver
well to sum up
this module is good but needs to be modified:

issues:

  1. the worst is that by training the skill higher you get faster adaption on damage taken, but the cap use goes up even further, this makes it desirable to have it at level 4 or even lower in a lot of cases. If a module creates the NEED to be on lower level even in some cases means there is something seriously wrong. because beside this module i cant think of another module, ship, charge, implant or whatever that makes you wish you had lower skills on it!
  2. because the use of cap is so high and there is only one version of this module it is good on capital ships and battleships but the smaller the ship gets the harder it is to use this module as it uses way too much cap, even to justify the resistance shift.


solutions:

  1. like i posted earlier make a version for frigates and destroyers, one for cruisers and battle cruisers and a final one for battleships and capitals.
  2. make cap bonus bigger per level.
  3. reduce cap for this module.
  4. change module so it only uses (much) cap when shifting resistances.


you can off course make a combination of the given solutions, i myself like the first one best then again that was my suggestion so no surprise there.

once it is all balanced out i really like a T2 version as well

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#59 - 2014-02-22 16:51:21 UTC
I personally really, REALLY like the idea someone posted earlier, let's call it option 5. I also rather like option 1, but make 4 classes, S, M, L, Cap.

5. cap use is dependent upon resistance shift - the higher percentage shift, the higher cap use.

This brings the phasing skill into a position similar to the repair systems skill - the faster it cycles the more cap it uses, but the major drain is when it's actually shifting

I would also like to see this module behave intelligently - only cycling when shifting, the rest of the time, appearing 'on' (in a similar way to cloaks) and maybe VERY SMALL cap use

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#60 - 2014-02-22 17:28:13 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
I personally really, REALLY like the idea someone posted earlier, let's call it option 5. I also rather like option 1, but make 4 classes, S, M, L, Cap.

5. cap use is dependent upon resistance shift - the higher percentage shift, the higher cap use.

This brings the phasing skill into a position similar to the repair systems skill - the faster it cycles the more cap it uses, but the major drain is when it's actually shifting

I would also like to see this module behave intelligently - only cycling when shifting, the rest of the time, appearing 'on' (in a similar way to cloaks) and maybe VERY SMALL cap use


your option 5 is just a rephrase of my option 1 if you ask me but that's ok, its all about the result. i find the lack of interest on this topic disappointing

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]