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Huge Exploit

First post
Author
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#41 - 2014-02-07 02:46:09 UTC
You should not be asking for this nerf... instead you should be encouraging people like your ganker to act the way he did. Now, people can look up his contracts, and his killboard stats, and then know that he is an untrustworthy bastard who will scam you and kill you. if he used an alt, then his reputation would be intact.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#42 - 2014-02-07 03:14:48 UTC
Research your contracts before accepting. This is how this scam works. Careless Freighter pilots.....

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2014-02-07 03:20:37 UTC
What if the person who assigned the contract and then attacked you has multiple personality disorder.

Now that I think about it would that be account sharing?

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2014-02-07 03:51:51 UTC
Malthus Dethahal wrote:
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous.


That is a pretty good point. Any sane person would consider the contract void. But then again, what if the guy that attacked you is your friend and he is just testing his guns on your ship. You should be able to manually cancel the contracts. That would make more sense.

Yeah legally if you enter into a contract the contract is automatically voided if the person issuing the contract deliberately makes it unable to be fulfilled. At least in English law / Australian law.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#45 - 2014-02-07 03:56:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Malthus Dethahal wrote:
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous.


That is a pretty good point. Any sane person would consider the contract void. But then again, what if the guy that attacked you is your friend and he is just testing his guns on your ship. You should be able to manually cancel the contracts. That would make more sense.

Yeah legally if you enter into a contract the contract is automatically voided if the person issuing the contract deliberately makes it unable to be fulfilled. At least in English law / Australian law.



All of this is a moot point. Nothing will stop these scams from just having a friend or alt issue the contract. I'm actually REALLY surprised it was the same char and not an alt to begin with. All of this goes back to do your research, KNOW what you're doing, and take every precaution. But Freighter Pilots seem to(judging on thread after thread of 'nerf the gankers/give my freighter infini-EHP') think they can just cruise along afk/autopiloting their merry way along with no risk, consequence, or otherwise.


Well.... to OP and Every other 'My Poor Freighter' thread out there.... Wake up, Buttercup, and welcome to Eve.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#46 - 2014-02-07 03:59:20 UTC
So, OP.

Now that you've had a little time to dry your eyes and catch your breath after the beating you just took at the hands your your employer...


...What do YOU plan to do to alleviate your risk of running afoul of this in the future?

Are you going to take the solid advice presented in this thread?

Are you going to make this thread crying foul to CCP, and nothing else?

Are you going to quit EVE?

Linkxsc162534
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-02-07 04:10:17 UTC
My solution.

Add a public standing system for contracts where players can rate people who make contracts (along with maybe giving them a little bit of space to comment about it) Similar to most auction websites, and leaving feedback on sellers.
Similarly, have another one where you can rate couriers you hire.

Make it so only people who have done a job for them can rate/comment. Perhaps make it so that players can also post a list of previously done successful/failed contracts.

This however could ALSO be exploited. Players could make alts and run lots of "padding" contracts, and give themselves great ratings. I liek this form of fun better though than the current system.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#48 - 2014-02-07 04:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
My solution.

Add a public standing system for contracts where players can rate people who make contracts (along with maybe giving them a little bit of space to comment about it) Similar to most auction websites, and leaving feedback on sellers.
Similarly, have another one where you can rate couriers you hire.

Make it so only people who have done a job for them can rate/comment. Perhaps make it so that players can also post a list of previously done successful/failed contracts.

This however could ALSO be exploited. Players could make alts and run lots of "padding" contracts, and give themselves great ratings. I liek this form of fun better though than the current system.



You also have the issue of players like me are really nice to friends and have broken open sealed packages on free move thier crap runs. This is a failed contract and counts against my freighter alt.

Reason I broke the contract was I'd tell peeps make the package no larger than charon at level 4 size limits. Some could not follow these simple instructions So rather than wait for for them to redo the whole contracting thing (if even online to tell them to do it) I'd break the old one, put thier assembled ships in new personal contracts that fit under level 4 size limits, do the runs needed to move it all and call it done.


Since free there were no collateral games. I go boom we all screwed lol. i am an honest player....all stuff moved and not stolen. This stat would not show that. It would show the opposite in fact.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#49 - 2014-02-07 05:19:15 UTC
Quote:
I join corp, corpies attack me and I lose ISK, guess what, I can leave the corp, yay!!!

I go into low-sec and get killed, guess what, I can leave low-sec, yay!!!

I make contract with guy and give put up tons of collateral to reflect my honesty, he turns around and kills me in high sec, guess what, he gets the collateral given to him for his crime, dafug?!?!? there is no way out like other aspects of EVE.


WRONG
you can check and see that the collateral is much larger than the deposit, when you accept a contract you accept the collateral (common sense?) and the risks that come with shipping it..

Also common sense? really it's like this kind of thing never happens irl insurance embezzlement or anything like that right
Also what would prevent the character that issued the contract from hiring a bunch of mercs to shoot you?
or do you also want to limit that...

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Anomaly One
Doomheim
#50 - 2014-02-07 05:21:11 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
My solution.

Add a public standing system for contracts where players can rate people who make contracts (along with maybe giving them a little bit of space to comment about it) Similar to most auction websites, and leaving feedback on sellers.
Similarly, have another one where you can rate couriers you hire.

Make it so only people who have done a job for them can rate/comment. Perhaps make it so that players can also post a list of previously done successful/failed contracts.

This however could ALSO be exploited. Players could make alts and run lots of "padding" contracts, and give themselves great ratings. I liek this form of fun better though than the current system.



horrible idea..
one can create multiple alts to down vote his opponents and up-vote himself this is nothing different than the current bounty system completely useless way of measuring someones worth..

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights Reborn
#51 - 2014-02-07 05:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Kenrailae wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Malthus Dethahal wrote:
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous.


That is a pretty good point. Any sane person would consider the contract void. But then again, what if the guy that attacked you is your friend and he is just testing his guns on your ship. You should be able to manually cancel the contracts. That would make more sense.

Yeah legally if you enter into a contract the contract is automatically voided if the person issuing the contract deliberately makes it unable to be fulfilled. At least in English law / Australian law.



All of this is a moot point. Nothing will stop these scams from just having a friend or alt issue the contract. I'm actually REALLY surprised it was the same char and not an alt to begin with. All of this goes back to do your research, KNOW what you're doing, and take every precaution. But Freighter Pilots seem to(judging on thread after thread of 'nerf the gankers/give my freighter infini-EHP') think they can just cruise along afk/autopiloting their merry way along with no risk, consequence, or otherwise.


Well.... to OP and Every other 'My Poor Freighter' thread out there.... Wake up, Buttercup, and welcome to Eve.


I totally agree with your first sentence, and rightly so, people should be able to hire mercs no problem. And I'll say it again because so many here just don't seem to read before they post. I have lost many ships to ganking, griefing, etc. Lost a MAckinaw while mining, lost a navy BS when i shot at a thief, lost an orca to a corp griefer etc etc. I have been playing for 3 years now and I have never complained about these things because they were fair and everything, but when this happened I honestly thought I would be getting my collateral back because my contractor didn't let me do the job. But instead he gets the ISK from me when he prevented me from doing the job? this goes against logic and normal law.

And people please stop saying that people will still have a way to do this scam, OF COURSE THEY WILL. That has nothing to do with the post.

Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#52 - 2014-02-07 05:36:09 UTC
I'll echo what was said earlier:

That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.

Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#53 - 2014-02-07 05:47:54 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
I'll echo what was said earlier:

That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.

Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that?


What he didn't tell us was that the contract was for 1 trit at 2bil collateral from Jita -> Hek thru Rancer.
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights Reborn
#54 - 2014-02-07 05:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Kenrailae wrote:
I'll echo what was said earlier:

That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.

Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that?


Basically the contracter attacked in order to give me the log-off timer so I couldn't just disappear after a while, others then came to kill me after a bit, I was being bumped by yet another person so I couldn't align.

If someone other than the contractor had given me that timer this post would not exist as I would simply accept it as another fair loss.

Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights Reborn
#55 - 2014-02-07 06:00:25 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
I'll echo what was said earlier:

That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.

Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that?


What he didn't tell us was that the contract was for 1 trit at 2bil collateral from Jita -> Hek thru Rancer.


actually, this post is only about high sec, I don't care about low-sec because there is a lot less law there anyways. and no, it was not for 1 trit, not even close.

Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#56 - 2014-02-07 06:23:12 UTC
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
I'll echo what was said earlier:

That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.

Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that?


Basically the contracter attacked in order to give me the log-off timer so I couldn't just disappear after a while, others then came to kill me after a bit, I was being bumped by yet another person so I couldn't align.

If someone other than the contractor had given me that timer this post would not exist as I would simply accept it as another fair loss.



So I don't get why this is an 'unfair' loss cause the guy showed you who and what he was playing at.

Your mistakes, in order:

1. Accepting contracts on your freighter character.

Use an alt, even if it's one of those silly little side slots on your account.

2. Traveling alone.

Freighter ganking is definitely a thing. You may not get ganked today, or tomorrow, but you will.

3. Not scouting your gates.

Basic Low sec Survival is all about scouting your gates. High sec just means we can't sit and camp them all day. Instead we undock and warp only when we have a target.

4. Not bringing friends.

Seems to be a theme this one. High sec players REALLY need to get over this idea that the rules are different just cause we pirates get shot by NPC's. Not just you, bu thread after thread after thread, and we all say the same thing. And we're not lying.

5. Coming here and crying foul.

This scam has been around FOREVER. I am STILL surprised he used the same char. That is just careless. But it goes to show how little attention freighters in particular pay, and why they are so easy and so worth ganking. If they don't pay in isk, they pay in tears, which fuels our lols.



Sorry bud, but this one was on you.

My advice? Buy an Orca, or else another char to web you into warp WELL before the bump can get you, and don't auto pilot to gates.


nb4 'oh webbing doesn't work.'

It does. You can get a freighter/orca off a gate in as short of a time as it takes a rapier to lock which is faster than a stabber can burn out and bump.


Or pay Red Frog to move your stuff and find another isk source, like incursions or missions.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Mag's
Azn Empire
#57 - 2014-02-07 08:30:33 UTC
Still waiting for someone to show me a 'hugh exploit'.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-02-07 08:32:58 UTC
Its not an exploit by game mechanics. But the line of tought is reasonable. Cancelling a contract if the owner gank you during its execution seems reasonable and whitin all limits of suspension of disbelief.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Mag's
Azn Empire
#59 - 2014-02-07 08:51:24 UTC
In a game that prides itself on the fact that friends are likely to stab you in the back, it makes perfect sense as it is.

You open yourself up to the loss of any ship by anyone, as soon as you undock. Changing the contract system for the OP in this instance, will not prevent this from happening. People will still seed gank contacts, just as they have since.....forever.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-02-07 10:08:01 UTC
Mag's wrote:
In a game that prides itself on the fact that friends are likely to stab you in the back, it makes perfect sense as it is.

You open yourself up to the loss of any ship by anyone, as soon as you undock. Changing the contract system for the OP in this instance, will not prevent this from happening. People will still seed gank contacts, just as they have since.....forever.



Your staementis completely unrelated to the issue. He did not ask for his ship to not be killable. He asked for not needing to payt he collateral for failure when the failure was made by an ambush of the contractor.

That is extremely logical. You open yourself for gankg when you undock. But the guy that made the contract is protected by a magical never fail contract system

The chance to be #@!#!@# shoudl be for BOTH sides. You want to backstab him.. ok.. but do not expect him to pay what he owns you.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"