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Huge Exploit

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Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#21 - 2014-02-06 22:35:06 UTC
its an exploit due to people useing low isk items with a high collateral and then pastic wrapped so you dont know its a simple 1 isk item or something so its a case of Bait then gank.. its literally a mechanic to pay people to gank you and its flawed and wrong

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#22 - 2014-02-06 22:53:01 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
its an exploit due to people useing low isk items with a high collateral and then pastic wrapped so you dont know its a simple 1 isk item or something so its a case of Bait then gank.. its literally a mechanic to pay people to gank you and its flawed and wrong

You can look inside the package, y'know. Sure, some people set ridiculous collateral values so they can wreck you and profit... but some other people are idiots, and set low collateral values, which make it possible for people to profit by intentionally failing the contract and keeping the loot.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#23 - 2014-02-06 22:54:44 UTC
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous.

As it currently stands, If I am doing work for a person and they decide to keep me from doing that work I am the one who has to pay for it. I'm sorry but that's a completely broken game mechanic. If you don't want your own contract completed than you should pay the price. The authorities would make you forfeit the contract. However, if it was another character who attacked then the contract issuer could claim innocence.

Nothing else in EVE really works this way, here are some examples.

I join corp, corpies attack me and I lose ISK, guess what, I can leave the corp, yay!!!

I go into low-sec and get killed, guess what, I can leave low-sec, yay!!!

I make contract with guy and give put up tons of collateral to reflect my honesty, he turns around and kills me in high sec, guess what, he gets the collateral given to him for his crime, dafug?!?!? there is no way out like other aspects of EVE.

The collateral is held by the SCC, an NPC corp, why would they give it to the criminal?



Welcome to EVE. We're allowed to be mean, deceiful and greedy if we like. CCP regard those as issues to be solved between ourselves.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights Reborn
#24 - 2014-02-06 23:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Concord knows who's fault it is, the broker would simply give the collateral back if the issuer was the one that attacked. This still allows someone to use friends or alts to kill the courier for collateral.

Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!
Aurora Fatalis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-02-06 23:19:15 UTC
Write your own contracts instead of using the supplied contracts that lack small print.

If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#26 - 2014-02-06 23:19:38 UTC
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
Concord knows who's fault it is, the broker would simply give the collateral back if the issuer was the one that attacked. This still allows someone to use friends or alts to kill the courier for collateral.


No one is denying that the guy issuing the contracted ganked the guy that accepted the contract.

What is being disputed is whether that was a fair and appropriate thing for the guy issuing the contract to do.

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
G0N3 F1SS10N
#27 - 2014-02-06 23:27:12 UTC
Not an exploit. It is a game Feature.

If the payout relation to the collateral is too big, don't take the contract or, simply use another character to accept the contract then move it to the pilot for delivery.

Basically: suspect everything is a trap and you will fare better in this game than you did before. Having an Alt accept the contract for you so you can move it is safer since it makes it nearly impossible for the potential ganker to target you. Unless, of course, you do something silly like have the contract acceptor and contract mover in the same corp or similar name. But that should be obvious.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
G0N3 F1SS10N
#28 - 2014-02-06 23:30:01 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
Concord knows who's fault it is, the broker would simply give the collateral back if the issuer was the one that attacked. This still allows someone to use friends or alts to kill the courier for collateral.


No one is denying that the guy issuing the contracted ganked the guy that accepted the contract.

What is being disputed is whether that was a fair and appropriate thing for the guy issuing the contract to do.



Its not fair.

It was stupid of the ganker to reveal his hand that way however. He should have used an alt to create the contract.

At best you punish stupid gankers with the OPs proposal.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#29 - 2014-02-06 23:35:19 UTC
didnt even know this still happened.

i read about stuff like this before i even started playing. its incidents like this that lead to me joining in the first place. although the OP may have been exploited, the game has not. bravo.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Marsan
#30 - 2014-02-06 23:59:29 UTC
The OP still doesn't understand that there is no fix for this. Sure CCP could prevent this case from happening, but even if they had the OP would still be in the same boat. Why because the scammer would have simply used an alt to create the contract. Fixing this issue won't change the ability to pull this scam, and then is no way to prevent the scam from happening.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#31 - 2014-02-07 00:03:12 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
its an exploit due to people useing low isk items with a high collateral and then pastic wrapped so you dont know its a simple 1 isk item or something so its a case of Bait then gank.. its literally a mechanic to pay people to gank you and its flawed and wrong



okay...so poof ccp "fixes" this. Guess what the "griefers" will do. Make a contract alt, out of corp. Lots of coding and testing and minutes later this trick is still in play. Alts sees the pickup, they engage with main (and his friends). There ya go....its all out corp and contract issuer name.....and the hauler is still gettting jumped anyway. No longer an exploit now...happy now?

Well that I have to question the intelligence of independent haulers anyway. Unless player base has become real generous last I even thought about doing these the pay was jsut not there. I'd in fact make out better working for Red Frog when I rolled around in a charon when I had one. Which leads to yet another indicator of potential gank issues. If its too good to be true, it probably is.

That is....if I really need stuff shipped and cba to "rent" a charon and fly it around I would pay red frog (others) for it and get reliable and fast service. With corps like them around you must ask 1 question.

If they exist, why would anyone put up courier contracts that pay equal to if not more than they would for RF hauling? this screams gank setup, or at least should. When you have reliable and established hauling corps where is the business (or common) sense to roll the dice on open contracts. Unless, ofc, one is looking to bait a hauler. Greed kills, even in empire.
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights Reborn
#32 - 2014-02-07 00:03:35 UTC
Marsan wrote:
The OP still doesn't understand that there is no fix for this. Sure CCP could prevent this case from happening, but even if they had the OP would still be in the same boat. Why because the scammer would have simply used an alt to create the contract. Fixing this issue won't change the ability to pull this scam, and then is no way to prevent the scam from happening.


I don't want the scam to be fixed at all, please read my posts. using an alt is a clever way to scam people. I just think they should not be allowed to use the contract issuer because it makes the scam far to easy, and it just doesnt make sense either

Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#33 - 2014-02-07 00:34:11 UTC
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
because it makes the scam far to easy, and it just doesnt make sense either


it does not make it any easier to carry out the scam. what it makes it easy to do is avoid it or retaliate against lol

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#34 - 2014-02-07 00:34:21 UTC
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
Marsan wrote:
The OP still doesn't understand that there is no fix for this. Sure CCP could prevent this case from happening, but even if they had the OP would still be in the same boat. Why because the scammer would have simply used an alt to create the contract. Fixing this issue won't change the ability to pull this scam, and then is no way to prevent the scam from happening.


I don't want the scam to be fixed at all, please read my posts. using an alt is a clever way to scam people. I just think they should not be allowed to use the contract issuer because it makes the scam far to easy, and it just doesnt make sense either




Your problem is like I said if "fixed", they'd use a contract alt. And to be "safer"....a courier would still need an alt. Or end up in the same spot they are in now. Still ganked, jsut not by issuer or their corp. Thats dev time and cost that once done is really a waste really.


Its not adding pita factor to the "griefer". This could quite simply be the "jita alt". One of eves most common alts....fire it up and see what jita (or other trade hub of choice) prices are quickly and accurately as online source can have prices off by hours depending on updates sent to them. Contract skills not exactly carrier complexity and length to train to post contracts.


If alt poisoned by too many ganks setups so known its biomass and start again. This is mere minutes if they don't care about wtf they look lke in char creation editor. The "hardest" part of the process is flying to trade hub from noob system they get put in really.
Nartel Vortok
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-02-07 00:44:55 UTC
Maybe you should get good?
F3X5ON
Zero Fun Allowed
#36 - 2014-02-07 00:47:11 UTC
So many special snowflakes.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#37 - 2014-02-07 00:48:53 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
I mean the way it works now goes against all reason and sense. I was actually surprised I didn't get the money back because usually things in EVE are fair and reasonable.

Calling troll.



Actually we did kill him. Was fun.
Bane Nucleus
Assault and Battery
Transmission Lost
#38 - 2014-02-07 00:53:24 UTC
I understand what the OP is trying to say. A change to that wouldn't matter though. People would just shoot you with alts, and you'd still lose out.

There is one simple solution here. Never haul with the same toon you accepted the contract with. That is a mechanic currently in game that allows you to avoid the situation you have described.

Lastly, well done to whomever shot you hahaha

No trolling please
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#39 - 2014-02-07 01:08:50 UTC
Endovior wrote:
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me.


Translation: "I was greedy, and took a large risk involving a courier contract that led me through a predictable pipe. I did not bother to take any precautions. The contract was bait, and I got burned."

There's a reason why Red Frog accepts contracts with low-skilled contracting alts, and does the actual shipping on an out-of-corp basis. You are now aware of the reason. Bait contracts are a pretty ancient thing in EVE. If you plan to make money as a courier, you need to be prepared for it.


This is the truth about Red Frog, I can confirm. I found this out a bit before Halloween when I attempted to infiltrate them.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Deadonstick Puppyseeker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-02-07 02:01:55 UTC
OP is totally right. I'm not sure what faction regulates the validity of contracts (I know that for the Caldari it's probably the business tribunal), but they really need to have their heads up their own asses to allow something like this.

Same should go for people making contracts to null stations you're disallowed to dock in. Impossible contracts, or contract givers attacking you should result in a void of the contract.

On a different, albeit related note, I also think that things like not being able to enter the desired system due to congestion should result in an extension of the contract.

Despite what you may have heard there's only one rule of EVE:

Never stop learning and realise there's always a lot more to be learned. To this end, seek wisdom in everything.