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ECM Rebalance idea
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Tchulen

Trumpets and Bookmarks

Likes received: 854

#21 - 2014-02-07 11:17:05 UTC

GREYBOBSASS wrote:

ECM is by far the worst mechanic in game, Since Get rid of it wont happen for sure i got an idea.

1. you CANT activate ecm mod past its range whitch should be nerfed to mach huggin web range but can be raised but proper rigs ( no more sniper falcons) this actually should be implemented to damps aswell

2. you NEED racial specific jammer to jam a specific ship. Multispecs should be nerfed in strenght

3. eccm makes you IMUNE to ecm (currently eccm wont help you at all even if you fit two of those, the falcon still jamms you)

those 3 things would make the game experience better for everyone.

Falcon pilots keep their falcons and we get rid of this ridicously opness of this mechanic.

The butthurt is strong in this one.

Tuck yer skirts in mate. ECM is no more OP than any other EWAR. It's been nerfed several times. Just because you don't like being on the receiving end of something doesn't necessarily make it overpowered.

Gypsio III

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,264

#22 - 2014-02-07 11:23:25 UTC

You're right, ECM isn't overpowered. But it is a fundamentally bad mechanic and needs to be replaced. The idea of reducing number of locked targets is good in principle. Elsewhere I've talked about removing ECM entirely, giving RSDs to Caldari as a replacement, giving an anti-missile ewar to Gallente and giving Caldari a new secondary ewar that interferes with the range and transfer amount of remote support (RR, cap transfers, ReSeBos etc.).


Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks Likes received: 854	#23 - 2014-02-07 11:40:58 UTC 1 Gypsio III wrote: You're right, ECM isn't overpowered. But it is a fundamentally bad mechanic Define bad mechanic.

Caldari 5

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S

Affirmative.

Likes received: 471

#24 - 2014-02-07 13:48:48 UTC

Catherine Laartii wrote:

That is absolutely brilliant, and the fact that you have numbers to back up your idea makes it that much prettier. It would wreck holy hell on logistics formations, and would be balanced in-game already considering how many max targets t2 logi has as a base.

To clarify, you're basing the amount of target locks lost from the max locked each ship can have, since that's their electronic capability, or from pilot skills?

I was thinking based off the Max of the ships current configuration(including pilot skills/modules/etc)

Kenrailae

Scrapyard Artificer's

Likes received: 777

#25 - 2014-02-07 13:55:30 UTC

Catherine Laartii wrote:

A PROPER rebalance would simply be completely getting rid of racial jammer types, and switch them to racial scripts that can be loaded into the multispec ecm mod. Simple, elegant, useful. Problem solved.

I haven't seen that idea before. THAT is actually really interesting. Why are jam's not scripted?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Zan Shiro

Doomheim

Likes received: 900

#26 - 2014-02-07 14:12:43 UTC

Gypsio III wrote:

The idea of reducing number of locked targets is good in principle. Elsewhere I've talked about removing ECM entirely,

t3 would be an issue with this. 5 target hard cap means no matter what you do its not getting higher. TBH after I fly t3 for a bit then hop into one of my bs' I am so used to 5 limit I completely forget I can load up the targets on other ships and stop at 5 till I realize I am being an idiot lol.

Other ships we can train more targeting skills and that be somewhat of a balance. Or even autotargetter in utility slot. T3 would lack this. While t3 needs to be put in check a bit this not imo the way to do it.

Deadonstick Puppyseeker

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 55

#27 - 2014-02-07 15:23:51 UTC

GREYBOBSASS wrote:

ECM is by far the worst mechanic in game.

Well, I agree it can be damned annoying to play against (it's pretty much the only EWAR that makes you 100% useless). However it doesn't make you 100% useless all the time. I think it's not more than logical that a single dedicated EWAR ship can easily disable another ship without protection. Imagine needing 5 EWAR ships just to jam a single battleship, that would be heavily useless.

Nah I think ECM actually lacks a bit in power at the moment. With tracking and sensor damps you can atleast edit your play style to get the most out of it (eg. stay more than 30KM away from the jammed ship). ECM tends to be unreliable and the moment your cycle fails one time most projectile-based ships can alpha out most ECM boats.

Despite what you may have heard there's only one rule of EVE:

Never stop learning and realise there's always a lot more to be learned. To this end, seek wisdom in everything.

Caldari 5

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S

Affirmative.

Likes received: 471

#28 - 2014-02-09 11:58:06 UTC

Zan Shiro wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

The idea of reducing number of locked targets is good in principle. Elsewhere I've talked about removing ECM entirely,

I don't fly T3 ships myself, but are you saying that if you fit an Auto Targeting System in the Highs that you don't get the additional Targets? If that is the case, that sounds like a bug.

Also see my suggested change to ECCM aswell.

Quote:

ECCM Prevents Locks from being taken away, similar to the way that Batteries prevent Cap from being taken away.
Meta 0 -4 = 1 Lock Saved
Meta 5 = 2 Locks Saved
Meta 5+ = 3 for some and 2 with better fitting on others

Perhaps fitting ECCM would suit the T3s

Enya Sparhawk

Black Tea and Talons

Likes received: 80

#29 - 2014-02-11 00:01:47 UTC

Catherine Laartii wrote:

If you REALLY wanted a proper rebalance, you'd recognize that ships that field ECM gimp almost every aspect of their flexibility to do so; they take up an inordinate number of mid slots, which severely hampers their fitting flexibility, especially in shield fleets.

A PROPER rebalance would simply be completely getting rid of racial jammer types, and switch them to racial scripts that can be loaded into the multispec ecm mod. Simple, elegant, useful. Problem solved.

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...

Little Dragon Khamez

Guardians of the Underworld

Likes received: 1,552

#30 - 2014-02-11 00:13:10 UTC

GREYBOBSASS wrote:

Show us on the dolly where the nasty falcon touched you.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Gypsio III

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,264

#31 - 2014-02-11 00:23:53 UTC

Tchulen wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

You're right, ECM isn't overpowered. But it is a fundamentally bad mechanic

Define bad mechanic.

I would define a bad mechanic for ewar as one that does not scale well from solo to fleet, and one that offers nothing more than binary end-member results of a crippling effect or none at all, with relatively little ability of the target pilot to alter his fate.

Tchulen

Trumpets and Bookmarks

Likes received: 854

#32 - 2014-02-11 08:24:21 UTC

Gypsio III wrote:

Tchulen wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

You're right, ECM isn't overpowered. But it is a fundamentally bad mechanic

Define bad mechanic.

So how is ECM any different than tracking disruptors or remote sensor damps?

So taking 1v1 fights:
Remote sensor damps can reduce targetting range. Therefore, if the ewar ship stays out of that range there's nothing the agressed ship can do, he simply can't target the ewar ship. If the agressed ship isn't faster than the ewar ship he's fecked.
Tracking disruptors reduce tracking. Therefore, if the ewar ship has enough of them and orbits the agressed ship the agressed ship can't hit the ewar ship meaning he can do nothing about it.
ECM distrupts locks and stops ships from locking. Therefore, if the ewar ship is lucky there's nothing the agressed ship can do for the ECM mod run time. However, he has a chance at the end of that that he can then lock again and shoot again. Unlike the other ewar, you're not necessarily totally screwed in a 1v1 fight.

Ewar is situational. Depending on how you fit your ship and what ship you're flying all ewar can be countered. Even ECM. If you say it can't, you're doing it wrong. ECM can't be completely countered but then that's part of it's chanced based mechanic. The other ewar is much more frustrating in a way. If you aren't fit right, you're screwed. At least with ECM you get a chance at not being screwed.

As for scaling well from solo to fleet, please explain that to all the ewar ships that fly in fleets. I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here. All ewar is used in fleets so is obviously useful in fleets.

From what you've posted it seems you're suggesting removing all EWAR from the game. Is this correct?

Naomi Knight

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 515

#33 - 2014-02-11 08:42:08 UTC

Tchulen wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

You're right, ECM isn't overpowered. But it is a fundamentally bad mechanic

Define bad mechanic.

bad mechanic is a guy who cant fix things :P
imho ecm is overnerfed and needs a huge boost to be viable in fleet fights
maybe change it so only 1 module can be activated on 1 target , so you have to spread out the jamms ,which is not hinder fleet fight but cuts small gang power
then make them scripted for extra optimal/falloff or extra strength and remove racial thingy altogeather ,it is pointless in the first place , just like there are no racial webs or neuts while every race uses different power and propulsion technology
currently ecm is only good to jamm the tackler so your buddies can get away from a blob gank , so limited

then maybe change eccm so it can be scripted to give special resist vs ewars , fe lower neut effectivenes ,then eccm would be a much more used module

djentropy Ovaert

The Conference Elite

The Conference

Likes received: 1,232

#34 - 2014-02-11 09:01:16 UTC

GREYBOBSASS wrote:

lmao

no

ECM works fine. HTFU and learn to counter it. It's easy.

Gypsio III

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,264

#35 - 2014-02-11 09:05:47 UTC | Edited by: Gypsio III

Tchulen wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

Tchulen wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

You're right, ECM isn't overpowered. But it is a fundamentally bad mechanic

Define bad mechanic.

Don't be ridiculous.

You state that if the ewar ship stays out of that range there's nothing the agressed ship can do, but this is patently wrong. The dampee may not be able to lock the damper, but it can lock another ship that is close enough. The TDed ship can track another ship that is big enough or close enough. In both cases, neither ship is stuck waiting, but can take actions to alleviate his situation. You seem to be obsessed about 1v1s, try seeing the bigger picture.

And stop thinking in absolutes, the comment "All ewar is used in fleets so is obviously useful in fleets" is particularly asinine. ECM is disproportionately weaker as fleet size increases because, to be effective, it needs to be mounted on bonused ships that are easier to identify and kill. In contrast, RSDs and TDs are relatively more effective on unbonused ships and can be more readily dispersed throughout the fleet.

If you can't see the differences between ECM and the other ewars then the phrase "There are none so blind as those who will not see" springs to mind. I'm a big fan of ewar and I know a bad mechanic when I see one.

Tchulen

Trumpets and Bookmarks

Likes received: 854

#36 - 2014-02-11 09:39:58 UTC

Gypsio III wrote:

Tchulen wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

Tchulen wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

You're right, ECM isn't overpowered. But it is a fundamentally bad mechanic

Define bad mechanic.

Don't be ridiculous? Yeah, right. You should learn to read. I was talking about 1v1 fights as I specifically stated. The dampee doesn't have any other targets. Same with the target distrupted ship. Also, in fleet combat, how do you know another ship will be in range? How do you know another ship will be sitting still enough to be tracked? And anyway, fleet dynamics are completely different. Just because one ship is ECM'd and unable to fire for the ECM rotation doesn't have the "OH MY GOD IT'S BROKEN" effect you seem to think it does. The only ships that really suffer are logi and they (any with brains) fit ECCM because they do work roughly halving your chance to get jammed (even though there are those that incorrectly claim otherwise).
I can see the differences between ECM and other ewar but then I can also see the differences between tracking disruption and other ewar and I can also see the differences between damping and other ewar. You appear to think that all ewar is the same except ECM but they're not. There are differences between all of them. You're just fixating on one difference that you personally don't like for personal reasons.

You say "ECM is disproportionately weaker as fleet size increases because, to be effective, it needs to be mounted on bonused ships that are easier to identify and kill. In contrast, RSDs and TDs are relatively more effective on unbonused ships and can be more readily dispersed throughout the fleet." but you completely miss the point. ECM can also be mounted on unbonused ships throughout the fleet and the amount does have an effect. All EWAR is better on bonused ships that can be prioritised. That's part of the balance. But there's nothing stopping a fleet mounting ECM mods on all their ships just like they can mount damps or disruptors. In this respect they're all equal. You only perceive that ECM has to be mounted on bonused ships because you've never used it otherwise. Well, there are those that do.

Just because you don't like ECM, just because you've been killed by someone with a Falcon alt, doesn't mean it's actually a bad game mechanic. You haven't shown a single argument that explains how it's a bad mechanic that doesn't also apply to other forms of ewar.

Try again.

Nevyn Auscent

Broke Sauce

Likes received: 4,077

#37 - 2014-02-11 10:03:21 UTC

Just referring to Op, rather than others.
Multi-spectrum should not be nerfed. Racial is what should be removed.

If you only have Multi, then you no longer have to fit the crazy rainbow fits to be able to use ECM, or have perfect intel based on spies. Meaning you can actually start to fit a tank while still able to use ECM, and we will stop seeing so many of the wet paper bag nothing but max ECM bonus fits and see more sensible fits.

It also then allows ECM to be more sensibly tuned in response. And ECCM can also be tuned based on only multi spectrum also, as well as the low slots adding a second scan type being made useful.

Sigras

Conglomo

Likes received: 1,109

#38 - 2014-02-11 10:31:10 UTC | Edited by: Sigras

Tchulen wrote:

Gypsio III wrote:

You're right, ECM isn't overpowered. But it is a fundamentally bad mechanic

Define bad mechanic.

There are really two things that make ECM a bad mechanic:
1. No Counter Play Options
2. Randomness

1.
A bad mechanic is one that effectively takes a player out of the game. All mechanics should increase the number of options and decisions both players have to make, not just the one using the mechanic but the one that it is being used against too. This is called counter play and is discussed more in length by extra credits in this video

A dampened player has several options; he can target someone closer, burn to try to get in range of his original target, attempt to leave the field, or burn in range of the damping ship and attempt to take it out.

The same goes for a tracking disrupted player.

But a jammed player has two options:
1. leave the field
2. pray to RNJesus that they dont get jammed another cycle.

If they're also warp disrupted, they may as well get up and make a sandwich because thats exactly how effective they'll be until they get unjammed.

IMHO, reducing the number of targets isnt the answer though because for the most part, you're only really shooting at one person, and maybe you're tackling another, so while reducing the number of targets a logistics ship can have would be very effective, reducing the number of targets a megathron can have will have basically no effect until you reduce it to less than two.

2.
Randomness is a bad mechanic. While I feel this is always true, it is especially true for a competitive game. It creates the possibility for you to lose the game without it being your fault. Look at the difference between chess and risk. In Chess there is no randomness; if you make a bad move, you made a bad move and you get punished for it. In Risk, no matter how well you plan things out, you could be Alexander the great and there's still a slim chance that a small 4 man squad will annihilate your defensive position of 12 men and overrun your territory.

This is the reason competitive games like Starcraft, and Chess have absolutely no randomness, and even in TF2 on competitive servers they turn off random crits.

Tchulen

Trumpets and Bookmarks

Likes received: 854

#39 - 2014-02-11 10:54:53 UTC

Sigras wrote:

...snipped...

Thank you. That's a bit more like it. I can see what you mean to an extent.

However, you're making the assumption that the attacked player has enough speed to burn into range and you're making the assumption that the attacked player has more targets that he can attack.

Like everything in EVE, it's situational. In a fleet situation you're correct and ECM does look like it removes more options for the individual who's being ECM'd although again, I would argue that this is not necessarily the case depending on the situaton. For example, if a bonused ewar ship with damps were to hit one enemy ship in the enemy fleet, just like the bonused ECM ship does, the damped ship would probably not have the locking range to actually lock one of the enemy fleet so in effect it would have the same effect as the ECM other than the fact that there isn't even a chance to get your ability to shoot people back. Now, you could counter this by saying that he could burn towards the enemy fleet to get into range and you'd be right in theory but in practice he'd immediately get primaried and killed. This is what actually happens when someone tries to break away towards the enemy fleet. They primary you.

Solo, yes ECM does mean the attacked player has no options but to try to escape. Now, lets look at that for a minute. If the attacker has better speed than the attacked it doesn't matter what type of ewar he's using, he can hold range and keep you disrupted or damped so you can't lock or hit. YOu also couldn't get away no matter what ewar he uses. At least with ECM you have a chance to sic your drones on him and get 30 seconds shooting in. Not so with other ewar.

If you're faster? Well, yes, you're right in this situation. You can get inside your damped locking range and do something. Disrupted? With careful flying, if you're faster, you can create the situation where you can hit at points but it takes some serious skill. ECM? You get to run away.

So it's not as cut and dry as some people think. I do understand, however, your dislike of the random aspect of ECM. I don't have a better suggestion myself and I have yet to read any suggestion that removes the random element which isn't total crap. If someone comes up with a sensible alternative for ECM I'll back it to the hilt. Until then though, I'll be defending ECM as it's already been nerfed into being pretty much the worst ewar. As several have said, it doesn't need another nerf, it needs to have the racial side turned into scripts, if anything.

Catherine Laartii

Doomheim

Likes received: 634

#40 - 2014-02-11 11:02:16 UTC | Edited by: Catherine Laartii

Anhenka wrote:

Catherine Laartii wrote:

Meanwhile, people like you are the reason no viable changes to ECM will come about. Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

If you REALLY wanted a proper rebalance, you'd recognize that ships that field ECM gimp almost every aspect of their flexibility to do so; they take up an inordinate number of mid slots, which severely hampers their fitting flexibility, especially in shield fleets.

A PROPER rebalance would simply be completely getting rid of racial jammer types, and switch them to racial scripts that can be loaded into the multispec ecm mod. Simple, elegant, useful. Problem solved.

While this would allow a greater flexibility in switching jam types on the fly, it hardy solves the underlying issues that is the more jams you fit, the less tank you can fit, excepting ecmgu and 1600 plate BB.

We already have a measure of flexibility in the form of the mobile depot. I for one carry a depot and spare racial ECM mods for when we find a large target like a pair of carriers: I can swap out all my racials to the same type in order to try and break a dual carrier rep circle jerk. I'm not sure quick swapping of scripts on a multispec would be a beneficial gameplay mechanic, especially since it eliminates the use of racial jammers altogether.

To clarify, you don't NEED more jams if you're not forced into fitting certain types; your efficiency goes up as your have more options, so you can balance your setup more than you could with the current model. Example would be going in blind against a small gang with mixed racial ships; if you have 4 or 5 racial jammers with the current model, you are more than iikely fitting against regular ship types, namely armor if you're fighting in caldari FW lowsec. So if they come in with some matari boats or worse, some caldari on the side with jams of their own, you're basically screwed because you didn't prefit properly.

ECM is the ONLY module IN THE ENTIRE GAME LIKE THIS. it is the ONLY offensive module that gets stuck with a preset "ammo" and can't swap it out to change and be flexible. Sure, you can make the analogy to guns where you're stuck with a certain damage type, but there's the kicker: ALL weapon ammo has multiple damage types. And you have options for range, tracking, loads of stuff, especially with missiles and ACs. So...fix ECM to load scripts, CCP. You won't hear much backlash other than the trolls considering how heavily used it is in-game by almost every side.

EDIT: the exceptions to the "all weapons do multiple damage types" are missiles and drones, and missiles can be reloaded and drones have the option for for fielding different damage types, if you have room for different flights of drones. The stand-alone exception currently are missles loaded into 'burst' launchers, which are utter crap vs anything larger than a destroyer, especially if it's properly active tanked...

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