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Noob questions on Manufacturing/Invention.
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Bobbi Huffman
For The Republic
#1 - 2014-02-06 11:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobbi Huffman
I'm looking at getting into indy stuff, more precisely invention and manufacturing in a single high sec pos.

I'm really looking for confirmation that my understanding and plan is feasible.

Lets say my plan is to constantly build vargurs (i'd spread out into different products but for simplifications sake ill say only vargurs)
-I'd build a medium high sec pos, buy a tempest bpo, using the bpo make tempest bpcs (running 1 at a time, 15 hours per copy so 105 hours to get 10 bpcs.) ME PE dont matter if in inventing.
-Id invent these bpc's (maximum 10) and say get 4 vargur bpcs at the end, build the 4 vargurs using the bpcs and profit.

Im pretty clued up with most game mechanics, played on off since 2005 have just somehow avoided the manufacturing/invention side of things.

Id not be planning on building bs level stuff to start this is just a proof of concept to see if theres anything im missing.

Cheers for any help :)
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#2 - 2014-02-06 11:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
That's basically it. Though you probably want to avoid ships, and you probably want to build your own T1 stuff and T2 components. You can buy 10 of the same BPO and make 10 copies at the same time to speed things up.

Whatever you do, run the numbers to make sure you can sell at a profit.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-02-06 11:46:53 UTC
the only problem is see is the "constantly" part. not everything is constantly profitable, you need to be able to adapt to situations like this, if you can only build vargurs and vargurs start being a bad idea you have a problem. spread your investments :)
Jaro Essa
Dahkur Forge
#4 - 2014-02-06 12:04:48 UTC
Bobbi Huffman wrote:

-I'd build a medium high sec pos, buy a tempest bpo, using the bpo make tempest bpcs (running 1 at a time, 15 hours per copy so 105 hours to get 10 bpcs.) ME PE dont matter if in inventing.
-Id invent these bpc's (maximum 10) and say get 4 vargur bpcs at the end, build the 4 vargurs using the bpcs and profit.


POS research labs work faster than station ones. IIRC, a mobile lab copies at 0.75x normal time, and an advanced mobile lab copies at 0.65x normal time, so a 1 run Tempest BPC (that would normally take 15 hours with Science V) would take either 11.25 or 9.75 hours.

If you want to build ships, look into decryptors also. For T1 and non-ship production you'll typically be losing money using decryptors, but they are often very worthwhile when it comes to T2, especially ships, where the margins justify their use.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-02-06 12:10:06 UTC
The only thing missing is the initial (and continuing) market research necessary. Not everything is profitable to invent, manufacture and sell all the time.

While ME and PE isn't important on the invention side, T2 ships and mods require the T1 item to be built and so you may want a researched BPO for that.
Bobbi Huffman
For The Republic
#6 - 2014-02-06 12:17:50 UTC
cheers for all the replies, so aslong as i have the basic mechanics and understanding down, its all on my head for the researching side so woooooo, cheers :)
Bobbi Huffman
For The Republic
#7 - 2014-02-06 12:23:01 UTC
using a small pos as a testing ground with 2x mobile labs and 1x component assembly array, is this feasible? just for say building cap booster IIs
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-02-06 12:37:08 UTC
2 mobile labs and an advanced mobile lab may well be better, or a mobile and 2 advanced. Copying can easily be more of a bottleneck than anything else. That said, it's feasible to use station labs/factories for everything
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#9 - 2014-02-06 13:35:39 UTC
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/ Smile

Handy for invention.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-02-06 15:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Gilbaron wrote:
the only problem is see is the "constantly" part. not everything is constantly profitable, you need to be able to adapt to situations like this, if you can only build vargurs and vargurs start being a bad idea you have a problem. spread your investments :)

This is the biggest lesson to know. Diversity of production is key.

The consequence of that is you need a stock of BPCs on the ready so you can quickly switch to a new item the moment the market tanks. Sometimes it's obvious (heavy missile nerf + Drakes) other times you need some trend data. To get that stack of BPCs you need to get past the copy bottle neck. I use alts in low sec stations where I que up several jobs. It works ok if you can get ahead of the game. I also copy on my main sometimes in nullsec alliance pos'.

See the link in my signature for something to help.

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#11 - 2014-02-06 16:21:10 UTC
Is there ever a case in ship invention where its worth using multi-run bpcs? Maybe not even max-run ones but enough to maybe hit certain sweep spots with regard to copy time and getting an extra run on the invented bpc? Expanding my invention spreadsheet to include bpc runs is complicated. I can imagine switching to max-run bpcs if I have gobs of extra copy time while not doing invention, but even in this case perhaps it would still be more effective to make 1-run bpcs for resale.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-02-06 16:28:21 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Is there ever a case in ship invention where its worth using multi-run bpcs? Maybe not even max-run ones but enough to maybe hit certain sweep spots with regard to copy time and getting an extra run on the invented bpc? Expanding my invention spreadsheet to include bpc runs is complicated. I can imagine switching to max-run bpcs if I have gobs of extra copy time while not doing invention, but even in this case perhaps it would still be more effective to make 1-run bpcs for resale.

Max runs don't have an effect on invention anymore. Just a one run copy for ships and then the decryptor is all that is needed to get the most out of your time.

The reasoning is that the max runs is below the threshold that the formula to calculate the end invention runs won't be anything greater than 1 + the decryptor modifier. So using 15 or 1 gets the same result.

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#13 - 2014-02-06 18:05:27 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Is there ever a case in ship invention where its worth using multi-run bpcs? Maybe not even max-run ones but enough to maybe hit certain sweep spots with regard to copy time and getting an extra run on the invented bpc? Expanding my invention spreadsheet to include bpc runs is complicated. I can imagine switching to max-run bpcs if I have gobs of extra copy time while not doing invention, but even in this case perhaps it would still be more effective to make 1-run bpcs for resale.

Max runs don't have an effect on invention anymore. Just a one run copy for ships and then the decryptor is all that is needed to get the most out of your time.

The reasoning is that the max runs is below the threshold that the formula to calculate the end invention runs won't be anything greater than 1 + the decryptor modifier. So using 15 or 1 gets the same result.



Thanks. It used to be that you could only get the decryptor run bonus if you used max-run bpcs, but now it looks like it will apply no matter what. Its not just that it won't be greater than 1+ modifier, but that even with 1-run bpcs, it won't be less than 1+modifier either. Also, it looks like the results aren't exactly the same. It looks like the final runs will always be MAX(1, decryptor_run_bonus). The exception is that if you use a max-run BPC and a decyptor that has a +1 or greater bonus, the final runs will be 1+decryptor_run_bonus.

Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#14 - 2014-02-06 18:46:47 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Is there ever a case in ship invention where its worth using multi-run bpcs? Maybe not even max-run ones but enough to maybe hit certain sweep spots with regard to copy time and getting an extra run on the invented bpc? Expanding my invention spreadsheet to include bpc runs is complicated. I can imagine switching to max-run bpcs if I have gobs of extra copy time while not doing invention, but even in this case perhaps it would still be more effective to make 1-run bpcs for resale.

Max runs don't have an effect on invention anymore. Just a one run copy for ships and then the decryptor is all that is needed to get the most out of your time.

The reasoning is that the max runs is below the threshold that the formula to calculate the end invention runs won't be anything greater than 1 + the decryptor modifier. So using 15 or 1 gets the same result.



Thanks. It used to be that you could only get the decryptor run bonus if you used max-run bpcs, but now it looks like it will apply no matter what. Its not just that it won't be greater than 1+ modifier, but that even with 1-run bpcs, it won't be less than 1+modifier either. Also, it looks like the results aren't exactly the same. It looks like the final runs will always be MAX(1, decryptor_run_bonus). The exception is that if you use a max-run BPC and a decyptor that has a +1 or greater bonus, the final runs will be 1+decryptor_run_bonus.

Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)


I may be wrong, but I thought you still needed to use a max run BPC to get the decryptor run bonus with two notable exceptions: Ships and Rigs.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#15 - 2014-02-06 20:21:09 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Batelle wrote:

Thanks. It used to be that you could only get the decryptor run bonus if you used max-run bpcs, but now it looks like it will apply no matter what. Its not just that it won't be greater than 1+ modifier, but that even with 1-run bpcs, it won't be less than 1+modifier either. Also, it looks like the results aren't exactly the same. It looks like the final runs will always be MAX(1, decryptor_run_bonus). The exception is that if you use a max-run BPC and a decyptor that has a +1 or greater bonus, the final runs will be 1+decryptor_run_bonus.

Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)


I may be wrong, but I thought you still needed to use a max run BPC to get the decryptor run bonus with two notable exceptions: Ships and Rigs.


If the formula I cited is correct, then you're wrong. Especially as the previous poster mentioned the formula had changed.

ROUND_DOWN( (Input_runs/Max_input_runs) * (t2_max_runs/10) + runs bonus ) means a run bonus of +2 or greater will always result in a 2-run or greater bpc.

I recall the old formula, and back then the run bonus was definitely added before dividing by max runs, or the run bonus was multiplied by the ratio.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-02-06 20:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Batelle wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Batelle wrote:

Thanks. It used to be that you could only get the decryptor run bonus if you used max-run bpcs, but now it looks like it will apply no matter what. Its not just that it won't be greater than 1+ modifier, but that even with 1-run bpcs, it won't be less than 1+modifier either. Also, it looks like the results aren't exactly the same. It looks like the final runs will always be MAX(1, decryptor_run_bonus). The exception is that if you use a max-run BPC and a decyptor that has a +1 or greater bonus, the final runs will be 1+decryptor_run_bonus.

Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)


I may be wrong, but I thought you still needed to use a max run BPC to get the decryptor run bonus with two notable exceptions: Ships and Rigs.


If the formula I cited is correct, then you're wrong. Especially as the previous poster mentioned the formula had changed.

ROUND_DOWN( (Input_runs/Max_input_runs) * (t2_max_runs/10) + runs bonus ) means a run bonus of +2 or greater will always result in a 2-run or greater bpc.

I recall the old formula, and back then the run bonus was definitely added before dividing by max runs, or the run bonus was multiplied by the ratio.

Here is the note from Inferno with this change:

  • Fixed an issue where BPCs invented with decryptors would sometimes have one less production run than they should have.

When I updated IPH with this, I wrote this in my patch notes:

  • Basic change to the invention runs formula is that max run BPCs are no longer required to get the 1 run from the BPC in addition to the Decryptor bonus. For example: A 1 run BPC before using a User Manual (+2 Runs) would result in 2 runs. After Inferno you get 3 (1 from BPC and +2 from Decryptor).

Here is the formula I use. It works, but I haven't had anyone critique it - positive or negative, since I haven't seen an update I just came up with my own. Most of the formulas I see on the web are the old one.

  • OLD FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
  • MY NEW FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX((InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)

Basically I just took out the ROUND_DOWN function.

Hope that helps.

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Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#17 - 2014-02-06 20:42:54 UTC
If you're making T2 stuff from invention, you'll need enough copy lines and BPOs to make sufficient BPCs to keep your invention lines running. You'll need to regularly be buying or finding datacores and decryptors for your invention runs. Once you have that part down, then you can think the manufacturing part.

The actual building of T2 stuff is little different than T1. Since you have the POS up and running, might as well make use of it and place the appropriate assembly array beside your labs. Also, you may want to consider making your T2 components as well.

As always its up to you and the market to decide if its more profitable to make the components or just buy them.

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#18 - 2014-02-06 21:14:51 UTC
Zifrian wrote:

Here is the note from Inferno with this change:

  • Fixed an issue where BPCs invented with decryptors would sometimes have one less production run than they should have.

When I updated IPH with this, I wrote this in my patch notes:

  • Basic change to the invention runs formula is that max run BPCs are no longer required to get the 1 run from the BPC in addition to the Decryptor bonus. For example: A 1 run BPC before using a User Manual (+2 Runs) would result in 2 runs. After Inferno you get 3 (1 from BPC and +2 from Decryptor).

Here is the formula I use. It works, but I haven't had anyone critique it - positive or negative, since I haven't seen an update I just came up with my own. Most of the formulas I see on the web are the old one.

  • OLD FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
  • MY NEW FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX((InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus, 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)

Basically I just took out the ROUND_DOWN function.

Hope that helps.


In your post here you forgot the second argument of the MAX function. But you still need rounding or you get non-integer runs. It needs to be a round up I think, that way you always get 1 run from your bpc and the decryptor modifier is always used. Round down was taking away a run from every invention job with less than max runs. Changing it to a round up means that you will indeed always get 1+modifier for final runs, and would also keep it capped at 1+modifier for max-run bpcs as well.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-02-07 02:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Batelle wrote:
Zifrian wrote:

Here is the note from Inferno with this change:

  • Fixed an issue where BPCs invented with decryptors would sometimes have one less production run than they should have.

When I updated IPH with this, I wrote this in my patch notes:

  • Basic change to the invention runs formula is that max run BPCs are no longer required to get the 1 run from the BPC in addition to the Decryptor bonus. For example: A 1 run BPC before using a User Manual (+2 Runs) would result in 2 runs. After Inferno you get 3 (1 from BPC and +2 from Decryptor).

Here is the formula I use. It works, but I haven't had anyone critique it - positive or negative, since I haven't seen an update I just came up with my own. Most of the formulas I see on the web are the old one.

  • OLD FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
  • MY NEW FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX((InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus, 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)

Basically I just took out the ROUND_DOWN function.

Hope that helps.


In your post here you forgot the second argument of the MAX function. But you still need rounding or you get non-integer runs. It needs to be a round up I think, that way you always get 1 run from your bpc and the decryptor modifier is always used. Round down was taking away a run from every invention job with less than max runs. Changing it to a round up means that you will indeed always get 1+modifier for final runs, and would also keep it capped at 1+modifier for max-run bpcs as well.

I think I edited that wrong. I use a ceiling function instead of a max, which is a comparison. So I basically do a round up like you suggested. Here's my formula from code:

InventedRuns = Math.Min(Math.Ceiling((InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (MaxProductionLimit / 10) + InventionDecryptor.RunMod), MaxProductionLimit)

Ran some simple tests in excel and it behaves as it does in game. The old formula cuts off a run unless using max run copies.

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#20 - 2014-02-07 05:14:58 UTC
Zifrian wrote:

I think I edited that wrong. I use a ceiling function instead of a max, which is a comparison. So I basically do a round up like you suggested. Here's my formula from code:


yes that makes sense, the ceiling function would do both in this situation. I updated my invention spreadsheets and using other decryptors makes a lot more sense. How many manufacturing slots you have available becomes important when the difference between one decryptor and another is a 10-15x difference in total manufacturing slot load.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
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