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CCP - I'm on my knees begging for an update on Factional Warfare

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Author
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#81 - 2012-01-05 17:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Othran wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Only alliances that do not hold sov should be able to join.


That doesn't go far enough. Not even close.

The reason is simple - lost your sov for the moment and looking for pastures new? No problem, park your alliance in Amamake for a couple of weeks and bounce back and forth between factions for the lulz. Once you got your new sov (blues) sorted then off you go.

Don't tell me it won't happen, its EXACTLY what is going to happen.

If this is going to happen and supercarriers/titans are still allowed in low-sec then it doesn't take a genius to figure out the likely outcome mmm?




First just to be clear: Between 1)not allowing alliances to join at all and 2)only allowing alliances with no sov to join: I think its a toss up. I really care either way.

But allowing all alliances to join is dumb. I think we all agree on that.

You are right that some alliances will join for a bit while they are in between sov holdings. You are right that when bob disbanded RKK did fw and it was difficult for amarr. But they didn't stay long. It didn't ruin fw. If they fixed the occupancy plexes it may have actually been fine for them to stay.

But there are some pluses. There are many corps that say they would join fw if they didn't have to drop their alliance. Many of these corps are already active in low sec and sometimes even war dec individual corps. (that mechanic is stupid too) It may allow them to come mix it up.

As far as concern for super caps. Well if the alliance doesn't have sov and therefore the ridiculous amounts of isk that can generate. I don't care if they want to bring in super caps. I know that is not a popular view. But they will be risking allot by doing that if they do not have the moons to just make dozens of them. So I don't see the harm.

I don't see fw as something for newbs that need protecting. I would like ccp to make fw into something that offers mechanics that bring about frequent quality small scale pvp. I would like it to be something that new players and veterans may enjoy.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Othran
Route One
#82 - 2012-01-05 17:31:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
But without some sort of automated mechanic to govern who can join, then we are back at the idea aired by some in RP community when the started war three years ago: That we have a GM screen applicants so that only the "serious" alliances are allowed entry.

Somehow doubt that will fly with the bot-lords Smile


I did reply to this before but due to the "special" forums it got lost - someone amongst the webmonkeys at CCP needs to get a clue Straight

Anyway its simple enough. If alliances can join then the weapons used must be available to all in FW.

By that I mean if you can use supercarriers or titans in low-sec then the means to build them (and all the benefits) must be available in low-sec. I wouldn't want to open that can of worms.

Alternatively you ban the use of supercarriers/titans in low-sec. Carrier fights are do-able for many in FW and in the overall scheme of things aren't too expensive. Supers/titans are a different ballgame.

Anything else and one side is bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Othran
Route One
#83 - 2012-01-05 17:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Cearain wrote:
I don't see fw as something for newbs that need protecting. I would like ccp to make fw into something that offers mechanics that bring about frequent quality small scale pvp. I would like it to be something that new players and veterans may enjoy.


Indeed and supers/titans have no place in that.

The issue with the whole "let alliances join" idea is basically isk. That's what wins wars in Eve, simple as.

Once you allow the isk imbalance to become "focused" - ie half a dozen nyx on the oss gate Blink - then it looks very much like pay to win is the only option for newbs.

It would be interesting to find out who the last dev to actively fly PvP/Plex/mission in FW was. I don't mean for a couple of days either. I bet it was a hell of a long time ago.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#84 - 2012-01-05 18:09:19 UTC
Just wanted to recommend that everyone post their feedback about this in the appropriate thread - we have like 6 active threads atm containing FW feedback, lets keep the Alliance-specific commentary in the proper response thread, so CCP can see what you guys are saying front and center. I doubt they're going to comb every single FW thread in their attempt to elicit feedback from the community, assuming they are open to changing this issue before it hits Tranquility.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#85 - 2012-01-05 18:15:56 UTC
Would be kind of pointless to throw it onto SiSi if they are unwilling to make changes .. lets hope that the surge of enthusiasm Iceland experienced when CCP went back to its roots came with a bit of common sense Smile
Lee Whelan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-01-05 18:19:29 UTC
Super Chair wrote:
Lee Whelan wrote:
Allowing alliances to join FW is the worst idea I could think of. Alliances will not be denied access to any of the trade hubs due to having alt neutral corps handling logistics for them. The faction warfare ships, mods market will be degraded even further with people farming with their main rather than just alts. I would be waiting for the super blob to come and tear up our little patch of space. If wanted that kind of game play, I would have gone to null sec. I could go on and on about this, but that's basically what it comes down to. I would wait until I see how it works out but I wouldn't be far from canceling my subscriptions.



Because hugging your titan all day in abaddons/garudians and dropping the nearest BC gang half your size is all FW is about Roll



I have a video... somewhere.. oh, here it is. When you brought the caps and still lost anyway. Funny how they never really showed up after that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwTO5KT61G0

But that isn't my point. My point is its bad for everyone.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#87 - 2012-01-05 18:20:57 UTC
what if they made it so faction warfare space cant have supercaps in it... kinda like a modified incursion system... that way you keep alliances like PL and such from taking away the fun...

sure you end up with a blob but a mostly sub cap blob... which i find to be fun...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#88 - 2012-01-05 18:36:29 UTC
Othran wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I don't see fw as something for newbs that need protecting. I would like ccp to make fw into something that offers mechanics that bring about frequent quality small scale pvp. I would like it to be something that new players and veterans may enjoy.


Indeed and supers/titans have no place in that.

The issue with the whole "let alliances join" idea is basically isk. That's what wins wars in Eve, simple as.

Once you allow the isk imbalance to become "focused" - ie half a dozen nyx on the oss gate Blink - then it looks very much like pay to win is the only option for newbs.

It would be interesting to find out who the last dev to actively fly PvP/Plex/mission in FW was. I don't mean for a couple of days either. I bet it was a hell of a long time ago.


Wars are won with people, if you have enough willing people, who are active you win. Isk is a by product of activity. Frequent quality PvP would only come about if PvP had no risks, or something worth risking was under attack. In Null Sec moon goo can be a item worth risking right up until one side or another decides they have lost (before the fight actaully happens), and calls it off.

You won't get 'good fites', stop asking for them. Its the individual players decision if they will engage or not. CCP would have the best sandbox MMO ever if they could figure out how to get people to want to fight while keeping the "gritty, lose your isk and ships and time" aspect of losing. Since losing hurts, people will do ANYTHING to avoid it, including not fighting. Eliminating KMs would do a better job of prompting fights, since a 'poor' player would not be judged based on his record. Instead as for something worth fighting and losing ships over.


Including Alliances into FW provides targets, targets increase the odds of conflict, and that is what you want. if you are worried about high SP rich people in Low-sec. You already have them there. If you are worried about an organized group with assets being used against you its already here. If all they have is organisation, get organised.

If PvP on my terms is what you want, stick with the war dec mechanic, no ones making anyone join. if anything, that would be an even better way to fight larger groups, since the faction police give you a safer harbor to retreat to. All the doomsdays predictions, and people assuming why alliances would join yeesh.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#89 - 2012-01-05 19:00:16 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Would be kind of pointless to throw it onto SiSi if they are unwilling to make changes .. lets hope that the surge of enthusiasm Iceland experienced when CCP went back to its roots came with a bit of common sense Smile



Its kind of pointless to throw it on SiSi anyways - SiSi will in no way simulate the type of effect this could have - there just isn't enough participants there to model the social and economic changes allowing Alliances into FW on only a standings requirement could have.

What is there to test? just that a CEO on Sisi can make his Alliance switch to FW and confirm it works? Even if that goes smoothly, its only the tip of the iceberg....

Simply saying "its on SiSi, try it out" won't be enough prep work this time around. The developers will have to dig a little deeper into the feedback and response comments to predict the outcome of this and deem it good or bad for the game before they make their final decision.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#90 - 2012-01-05 19:22:02 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:
CCP would have the best sandbox MMO ever if they could figure out how to get people to want to fight while keeping the "gritty, lose your isk and ships and time" aspect of losing. Since losing hurts, people will do ANYTHING to avoid it, including not fighting.

Including Alliances into FW provides targets, targets increase the odds of conflict, and that is what you want.


I don't predict any doomsday scenario here, but the timing of this just doesnt make sense. Like you said, they would have the best MMO ever if they found ways to convince people to fight.

Currently, in Faction Warfare, there is no reason to fight than just for the hell of it. It basically is just one big wardec. Other than pew for the sake of pew, There is no incentive to encourage ongoing participation. It is no surprise that participation has dwindled since its initial release.

I'm sure CCP never intended FW to simply be a giant RP wardec, otherwise they wouldn't have taken the time to implement Faction missions, plexing, victory points, and the like. The problem is that all of those mechanical systems are broken and pointeless, so the only ones of us left are those that actively go out looking for fights just because we enjoy fighting against a common, known, enemy. Old grudges will NOT be enough incentive for new Alliances to stick around when they have more engaging or meaningful options elsewhere.

Increasing targets isn't enough. There have been numbers all along - whats lacking is the REASON to fight - and CCP is not addressing that first. Any participation increase will be temporary at best - and all that will happen is we'll have twice as many people on the forums here saying "Faction Warfare mechanics need some serious fixing".


All that said, I want to remind people once again that while this discussion is great, it belongs in this thread or everyone here risks not being heard or considered when it comes time to make a decision on this issue. CCP has asked us to keep our comments focused and in appropriate threads.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#91 - 2012-01-05 20:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Avila Cracko wrote:
ok... i dont know anything about FW... and writing this from no FW member point of view... Attention
but i have one guy i know thats starting EVE and i have one question from my NOOB side... Idea

Noobs dont know that FW exist untill they read forums and things like that... thats wrong.
FW members are military... and that we should see and have feeling of it... Idea

- when ship skins are coming... i would like that they get free FW skins for ships (they cant sell it and when they leave FW they need to return it)... that way wee see our military members...

- and can you make that we can see military members in overview and/or local (marked with some color/sign) so that we know in space that we just fly by one of ours soldiers.



give us a feeling that our army exists. Attention


Militia is not professional soldiers of a state.

The term militia ( /mɨˈlɪʃə/)[1] is commonly used today to refer to a military force composed of ordinary citizens[2] to provide defence, emergency law enforcement, or paramilitary service, in times of emergency without being paid a regular salary or committed to a fixed term of service.

FW people are just normal people fighting a war for states that no longer fight in a war, so why would we get uniforms or special paint jobs on our space ships?
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#92 - 2012-01-05 20:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
MeBiatch wrote:
what if they made it so faction warfare space cant have supercaps in it... kinda like a modified incursion system... that way you keep alliances like PL and such from taking away the fun...

sure you end up with a blob but a mostly sub cap blob... which i find to be fun...


I'm sure the null sec alliances whom already hold most of the tech moons in FW space would appreciate this safety net feature to protect their gold farming.

Anyway on the topic of alliances joining FW I suspect few things things might happen..

First week, Random Null bear alliance will grind standings to join and will troll militia chats calling us space noobs trying to recruit us to their l33t PVP corps.

Second week, Random Null bear alliance will just farm LP because we all know they are just carebears anyway. Meanwhile their null bears member base will lose some fancy tengus with pretty loot droppings and smug FW guys that do something besides FW missions can point & laugh. The other 90% (FW mission farmers) will look at ship fit wondering if it will work better than their stealth bomber.

Third week, Random Null bear alliance gets kicked out of FW for standings losses due to remote repping each other while in 300 ship gangs wondering why they can't get GF.. or for using bubbles in null sec with stupid alliance buddies.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-01-05 20:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
What are Faction Warfare?
Draco Rosso
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#94 - 2012-01-05 21:15:38 UTC
Mutnin wrote:

I'm sure the null sec alliances whom already hold most of the tech moons in FW space would appreciate this safety net feature to protect their gold farming.
.

This is the real reason they're adding alliances to FW. Come on CCP stop bending over to 0.0 space coalitions. This is why we need to better representation in the CSM. Tired of these Lull sec guys shoving their horrible and mind numbing play style down our collective throats.