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Recruitment channel and scamming - Clarification

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De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2011-11-10 14:48:55 UTC
The butt-hurt by the scammers in this thread is pretty epic, but let me try and inject some semblance of reason.

At no point did anyone from CCP, GM, Dev, or otherwise come out and say

"SCAMMING IS NOT ALLOWED IN OUR EVE."

What they did say is "Quit scamming in this official channel created and moderated by us, CCP. We don't like it."

As for the argument that all they have to say is "But but they started the scam in recruitment" that only works on a small subset of scams to begin with.

If you post a scam contract in Jita and someone accepts it - no problem, as long as you didn't spam the damn thing in recruitment (which, if I understand the rules of the channel, you shouldn't be doing anyway.)

You should be perfectly free to post your leaving eve double your isk scams all over Jita local if you like. Not using the recruitment channel there.

The real issue here isn't that CCP is changing what you can do in their channel; the real issue is that they suddenly cut off an endless supply of free targets. No one's told you you can't keep scamming. You're just going to have work a little harder at finding victims.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2011-11-10 14:51:41 UTC
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD.


I believe a "LOL, pwnd" is in order here.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Midge Mo'yb
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2011-11-10 14:55:04 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD.


I believe a "LOL, pwnd" is in order here.



actually, by my interpretation.

he just clarified the older rule of no scamming in the channel, which goons don't do anyway.
Harold Tuphlos
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2011-11-10 15:05:38 UTC
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the ‘no scamming’ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'



So now what's going to happen is scammer will sit an alt in the channel, and use another character to contact the target; never mentioning the recuitment channel but still using it. However, since the scout is never mentioned, there will be no evidence to show that it was used. This will result in no real effect, except that newbies that also happen to scam will have a harder time scamming idiots.

To make it have an actual effect, you would have to ban recuitment scamming as a whole, and that won't end well. Thus it is probably better to simply warn players not to trust anybody, than to try and stop scammers from using the channel for intel.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2011-11-10 15:07:16 UTC
Midge Mo'yb wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD.


I believe a "LOL, pwnd" is in order here.



actually, by my interpretation.

he just clarified the older rule of no scamming in the channel, which goons don't do anyway.


Um, yeah. That's what I was getting at - everyone got all butthurt about this sudden policy change in the channel when, in fact, nothing changed.

Thus the LOL pwnd.


De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
HELIC0N ONE
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2011-11-10 15:19:30 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Um, yeah. That's what I was getting at - everyone got all butthurt about this sudden policy change in the channel when, in fact, nothing changed.


Except that the "clarification" raises more questions than it clarifies, since it appears to outlaw scammers using recruitment to identify targets but carrying out the scam in another private channel. Since a huge number of recruitment scams have previously been carried out in this manner, I wonder if the GMs are prepared for an avalanche of petitions from idiots who were scammed months or even years ago, since until this "clarification" nobody was aware that such activities were prohibited?
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-11-10 15:23:06 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:

Um, yeah. That's what I was getting at - everyone got all butthurt about this sudden policy change in the channel when, in fact, nothing changed.

Thus the LOL pwnd.


Except the policy has changed. Theres quite a big difference between "You may not scam in this channel" and "You may not use this channel is any way to aid your scamming". Because is impossible to prove whether a mark was found through the channel or not we now have a situation where anyone in the recruitment channel is effectively immune to the consequences of their bad decisions.
mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#68 - 2011-11-10 15:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: mental maverick
De'Veldrin wrote:
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD.


I believe a "LOL, pwnd" is in order here.



Now see, there is one pretty big difference with the current MOTD and the old one.

This paragraph right here: "this includes, but not limited to, using the recruitment channel as a platform to find or target players to scam" This paragraph makes you almost invulnerable to any form of scam that involves the scammer talking to the scammee in any way by simply allways be in the recruitment channel and once scammed claim you got targeted through said channel.

There is also the possibility of using the channel to get ppl banned by fabricating scams and claiming you got targeted through the recruitment channel. Atleast temporary during an investigation since CCPs policy on bannable offences seems to be guilty until proven otherwise.


Edit: tl:dr: Yeep beat me to it and made it clearer than i did, Goddamn Goons and their posting prowess...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-11-10 16:00:38 UTC
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the ‘no scamming’ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'

And which part of that was insufficient to the point you had to add "and this includes, but not limited to, using the recruitment channel as a platform to find or target players to scam"? Does this mean that you have outlawed, and will return assets and ban people who have scammed, if the person being scammed has been in the recruitment channel at the time they got scammed? A day before they got scammed? A week? A month?

Just how hazardous have you made scamming with this change?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Devilish Ledoux
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2011-11-10 17:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Devilish Ledoux
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the ‘no scamming’ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'



FYI, you are not a very astute person. This isn't going to protect anyone and will cause nothing but heartache for you and your fellow GMs. The people this policy is intended to protect (newbies) don't have anything worth stealing, unless they're dumb enough to PLEX their way to wealth right after they first subscribe. If they're dumb enough to PLEX their way to wealth, they should be allowed to learn the hard way that easy come, easy go.

If anything, you're only going to make things worse. Underhanded tactics are like sand: the tighter you clench your fist, the more of them that will slip through your fingers.

Edit: BTW, CCP should probably clarify the consequences for violating this policy that was in place the whole time (heh). Kicked from the recruitment channel? Banned from the channel? Return of assets? What?
Johan Krieger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2011-11-10 17:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Krieger
Stop building walls of cat shit in my sandbox
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#72 - 2011-11-10 18:01:07 UTC
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the ‘no scamming’ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'



The current MOTD states that GMs are not responsible for any deals made outside of the channel, but it also states that the channel may not be used to find targets. This seems like a very vague "we might or might not enforce it, deal with it" clause. Could you clarify this?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2011-11-10 18:41:51 UTC
I find it utterly pathetic that this thread has devolved into spliting hairs and consipiracy theroys... has anyone actaully ever been done in by said "policy"?

A policy thats been in place for a rather long time according to a Seinor GM?

did it occur to people that most "i was scammed petitions" are likely tossed unless someone can produce a chat log as it was?

Are you people really that daft/dense/stupid?

What is this REALLY about?

Seriously?

You say this policy wont' work yet you ***** and complain your brains out?

What the hell is really the problem here again? Or is this just a glorified troll the GM's and get away with it cause your "big and bad" and all dat.

This is just utterly beyond stupid. I'm surprsied the GM's haven't locked this therad down and told everyone to STFU as your all throwing a damned fit over policies.

================ STOP THE EVEMAIL SPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152
Goose99
#74 - 2011-11-10 18:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Andski wrote:
GM Thunder wrote:
The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the ‘no scamming’ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'



The current MOTD states that GMs are not responsible for any deals made outside of the channel, but it also states that the channel may not be used to find targets. This seems like a very vague "we might or might not enforce it, deal with it" clause. Could you clarify this?


Meaning you can't use channel to find targets, then pull someone from channel into private chat in order to scam them, thus evading rule. Is it too obvious, or were you hoping that the MOTD doesn't say what it says?Lol
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-11-10 19:22:25 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
has anyone actaully ever been done in by said "policy"?

It was just implemented, so no.

Drake Draconis wrote:
A policy thats been in place for a rather long time according to a Seinor GM?

No. The changes went deeper than that.

Drake Draconis wrote:
did it occur to people that most "i was scammed petitions" are likely tossed unless someone can produce a chat log as it was?

Then why the addition of "this includes, but not limited to, using the recruitment channel as a platform to find or target players to scam"?

Goose99 wrote:
Meaning you can't use channel to find targets, then pull someone from channel into private chat in order to scam them, thus evading rule. Is it too obvious, or were you hoping that the MOTD doesn't say what it says?Lol

Why didn't it say that, then? The wording is wide enough that if I were to sit in the channel with this char or a neutral non-goon char and pass on information to another goon, who then proceed to scam someone who's in the recruitment channel, it'd be covered under that rule, because we'd be "using the recruitment channel as a platform to find or target players to scam". And since the information about players who are scammable would be transmitted out of game, there'd be no way for CCP to say either way.

In other words, GM Thunder has with that update created a situation where people will either be able to petition any and all scams they've endured if they've logged in to the recruitment channel, or he's created a rule which is unenforcable, and as such will only make people who do get scammed by people who aren't in the recruitment channel all the angrier because they'll be under the impression they're safe because they're in that channel.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#76 - 2011-11-10 20:22:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
In other words, GM Thunder has with that update created a situation where people will either be able to petition any and all scams they've endured if they've logged in to the recruitment channel, or he's created a rule which is unenforcable, and as such will only make people who do get scammed by people who aren't in the recruitment channel all the angrier because they'll be under the impression they're safe because they're in that channel.

This here sums it up nicely.


And yes, I admit the second point I made has conspiracy theory written all over it, but in my experience, what can be abused sooner or later will be abused.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#77 - 2011-11-10 20:35:50 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
I find it utterly pathetic that this thread has devolved into spliting hairs and consipiracy theroys.


With the way the new/revised policy is now stated, it leaves even more loop-holes and unanswered questions than the previous policy. Of course, people want clarification rather than simply running around like useless sheeple, especially when something they find enjoyable/profitable for their continued enjoyment of the game overall is threatened.

A clear, proper, fully-formed response from the GM's is needed here, with detailed explanations of just exactly how the recruitment channel may and may not be used, whether or not people may use the recruitment channel as they have for years with compiled precedent to back up their previous usages in regards to using the channel to get marks into separate conversations, and whether or not the changes to the channel MOTD reflect changes in the GM's handling of scamming cases in regards to the recruitment channel that were previously not authored in any viewable form to the playerbase.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2011-11-10 21:50:01 UTC
LMAO! This still going?? Oh dear God.

I love how some people in this thread assume the rest of EVE's as underhanded, devious and as much a douche as they are.

Why assume anyone will cry wolf about being in the recruitment channel whilst being scammed when they are not?

Hell most of EVE probably didn't even notice the change until this thread.

Chances of it actually being used in an underhanded manner have gone up significantly now that you've put the thought in their tiny minds, don't you think? Way to go and shoot yourself in the foot guys :golfclap:
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2011-11-10 21:56:03 UTC
Does this guy really not understand that he has made a substantial policy change by including the "platform" clause (not clarification) that was clearly not included before?

If this is a considered and purposeful policy change, then fine. If it is one GM changing the rules on a key issue at his own whim, then he should get the chop asap.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#80 - 2011-11-10 22:45:16 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Cry me a river...Cry

CCP is running a business. You know, mouths to feed and bills to pay? You're driving away noobs - their customers. Any other company would have deleted your accounts ages ago. Instead of giving CCP credit for tolerating you tards for this long, you whine about it.Roll

Btw, u mad bro?Bear


Nobody scams newbies you dumb ****. They don't have anything to scam.

They scam vets looking for new corps.