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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#441 - 2014-02-12 14:49:41 UTC
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


mag's wrote:
Also please read the following link. It is the Eve search version of the thread I Iinked. A thread of someone complaining of a freighter being bumped for over an hour.

There is nothing from EVE devs there, except post about removing GM's posts. Maybe you meant those? Too bad they were removed....
I get it that you are unwilling to accept the ruling, but that is your problem not ours or CCPs.

The link I provided gives a ruling from the people that matter in this regard and even though some are missing, it shows quite clearly why you are wrong. This is without even taking into account the fact we have the other thread. Where they specifically state it is normal game mechanics and not an exploit.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#442 - 2014-02-12 14:50:04 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Mag's wrote:
CCP don't comment, because they have already ruled on this. The fact that some cannot read, or are unwilling to accept the ruling means little.

I personally am not unwilling to accept CCP ruling. All I am (repeatedly) pointing out is that their could be some rebalancing of the bump mechanic as stated above. CCP has re-balanced other aspects of the game for their own reasons. Ship rebalancing is primary sticking point, as they never REALLY needed re-balanced as much as they were in the first place. I mean that every ship or doctrine has a counter and if some were OP then it should have been the players job to creatively counter it (for the most part). Counters to bumping DO exist already however causing impact damage and/or repeat bumping to be viewed as inherently hostile act (meaning that its primary purpose is to cause destruction of assets) just seems to make a bit of sense to me. If emergent gameplay turned bumping into a lol, then re-balancing would cause that to be lost. it is a trade off




Re-balancing an action that occurs as often as bumping for as many reasons as bumping isn't a simple thing. As much as anyone, I'd Love for that little inty that tries to bump my vindi to just go splat. The lols would be epic. But there are so many grey areas and fringe cases here.... it's as bad if not worse than trying to re-write POS's or Sov.

Also, some of the rebalances have been awesome. Low sec was amazing just after the cruiser rebalance. Some systems which usually sat at about 10 people stayed around 60 for days. Some.... not so much.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Cathy Mikakka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#443 - 2014-02-12 14:51:03 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cathy Mikakka wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cathy Mikakka wrote:
Bumping HAS ZERO COST on GANKING. ZERO COST. NOTHING. NADA. NULL. NIC. 0 ISK. 0 PLEX. 0!
Sure it has cost, even if you decided it's a cost you will not include. Time, effort and organisation are all costs. Which is why I guess, you do not wish to use the tools and options you already have available, to avoid this.


Yeah and exactly those are now off the table. There is no effort in ganking default since target can't defend nor fly away (there is no effort on coming and targetting the ship and then wait for "GO" signal, really). There is no time effort, SINCE YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO PLAY! All the members except for the bumper can sit and watch tv, is that okay with you? And organization, lol, really? Showing up on ts and grouping, that hard?


its about as hard as the freighter getting on TS and calling his friends...so whats the problem?

To do what? Lose their ships to CONCORD? Is that your master plan? That is a win for you, losing X ships worth Y ISK for 0 ISK gain, while bumper loses MINIMUM ISK (30% of ship costs, and maybe MWD price), since ship is insured? You are ******* ridiculous...

Mag's wrote:
All members except the bumper, can sit and watch TV? Am I meant to take this retort, as a serious argument?

Also, no effort in ganking? If it's so easy, then why are there not more freighter ganks? If this is so easy, then why is it seemingly so hard for you to use the tools and options provided, to avoid them?


Yes it is. Tell me, what is stopping them? Bumper can hold the ship until their show is over or until they return from work or until they finish taking ****. That is the point I dislike, not the ganking itself.

And again, if webbing fails, you are at mercy of the bumper. Until next downtime, if he wants you will do NOTHING (except maybe options retards seems to suggest like "self destruct").
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#444 - 2014-02-12 14:53:50 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Mag's wrote:
CCP don't comment, because they have already ruled on this. The fact that some cannot read, or are unwilling to accept the ruling means little.

I personally am not unwilling to accept CCP ruling. All I am (repeatedly) pointing out is that their could be some rebalancing of the bump mechanic as stated above. CCP has re-balanced other aspects of the game for their own reasons. Ship rebalancing is primary sticking point, as they never REALLY needed re-balanced as much as they were in the first place. I mean that every ship or doctrine has a counter and if some were OP then it should have been the players job to creatively counter it (for the most part). Counters to bumping DO exist already however causing impact damage and/or repeat bumping to be viewed as inherently hostile act (meaning that its primary purpose is to cause destruction of assets) just seems to make a bit of sense to me. If emergent gameplay turned bumping into a lol, then re-balancing would cause that to be lost. it is a trade off


there are threads about this too. trouble is that it could cause a whole load of issues, like sitting on the jita undock and having ppl bump into u, so innocent ppl are becoming criminals for just undocking.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
JetStream Drenard
Digital Ghosts
#445 - 2014-02-12 14:54:00 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:

Forgot the mining titan was still there, lol :) Guess we know what to gank next now don't we? lol

lol, good luck! let me know if you need a bumper. I got an alt for that.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#446 - 2014-02-12 14:55:46 UTC
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


Mag's wrote:
All members except the bumper, can sit and watch TV? Am I meant to take this retort, as a serious argument?

Also, no effort in ganking? If it's so easy, then why are there not more freighter ganks? If this is so easy, then why is it seemingly so hard for you to use the tools and options provided, to avoid them?


Yes it is. Tell me, what is stopping them? Bumper can hold the ship until their show is over or until they return from work or until they finish taking ****. That is the point I dislike, not the ganking itself.

And again, if webbing fails, you are at mercy of the bumper. Until next downtime, if he wants you will do NOTHING (except maybe options retards seems to suggest like "self destruct").
If they do so what? But why would they? I can tell you now from experience in fleets, if someone is not paying attention or semi AFK, they get kicked from fleet quite soon.

Quite frankly it's a ridiculous argument to make, based on your own bias and nothing in the way of facts.

But I see you avoided my other questions quite nicely. Good to know.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Cathy Mikakka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#447 - 2014-02-12 14:59:39 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


Mag's wrote:
All members except the bumper, can sit and watch TV? Am I meant to take this retort, as a serious argument?

Also, no effort in ganking? If it's so easy, then why are there not more freighter ganks? If this is so easy, then why is it seemingly so hard for you to use the tools and options provided, to avoid them?


Yes it is. Tell me, what is stopping them? Bumper can hold the ship until their show is over or until they return from work or until they finish taking ****. That is the point I dislike, not the ganking itself.

And again, if webbing fails, you are at mercy of the bumper. Until next downtime, if he wants you will do NOTHING (except maybe options retards seems to suggest like "self destruct").
If they do so what? But why would they? I can tell you now from experience in fleets, if someone is not paying attention or semi AFK, they get kicked from fleet quite soon.

Quite frankly it's a ridiculous argument to make, based on your own bias and nothing in the way of facts.

But I see you avoided my other questions quite nicely. Good to know.

I didn't feel like I need to respond to your nonsensical argument that "if ganking is easy then why do not more people gank". Dunno, maybe not everyone is an *******?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#448 - 2014-02-12 15:00:21 UTC
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


To do what? Lose their ships to CONCORD? Is that your master plan? That is a win for you, losing X ships worth Y ISK for 0 ISK gain, while bumper loses MINIMUM ISK (30% of ship costs, and maybe MWD price), since ship is insured? You are ******* ridiculous...


lol, no u are the ridiculous one. and yes, if ur already in the crapper, losing some cheap ships for ganking is less than losing the freighter. its a meaningful choice and all, eve is full of them.

or a friend could try and bring another freighter, jettison and scoop whatever loot u can, double the bumpers work or maybe but half the loot in the other freighter and hope that they can't gank two at once. theres a whole bunch of things u can try to do lol, why cant u come up with any?

try not to get bumped. if u do, try to save what u can how u can. u cant win em all.

honestly, if u dnt like that, why on earth are u playing eve? this kind of mentality is a core of the game.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#449 - 2014-02-12 15:00:31 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


Mag's wrote:
All members except the bumper, can sit and watch TV? Am I meant to take this retort, as a serious argument?

Also, no effort in ganking? If it's so easy, then why are there not more freighter ganks? If this is so easy, then why is it seemingly so hard for you to use the tools and options provided, to avoid them?


Yes it is. Tell me, what is stopping them? Bumper can hold the ship until their show is over or until they return from work or until they finish taking ****. That is the point I dislike, not the ganking itself.

And again, if webbing fails, you are at mercy of the bumper. Until next downtime, if he wants you will do NOTHING (except maybe options retards seems to suggest like "self destruct").
If they do so what? But why would they? I can tell you now from experience in fleets, if someone is not paying attention or semi AFK, they get kicked from fleet quite soon.


Thats also a stupid argument, it may be that your Fleet handle this that Way but assuming everyone do that is just childish.

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
JetStream Drenard
Digital Ghosts
#450 - 2014-02-12 15:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: JetStream Drenard
Daichi Yamato wrote:
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Mag's wrote:
CCP don't comment, because they have already ruled on this. The fact that some cannot read, or are unwilling to accept the ruling means little.

I personally am not unwilling to accept CCP ruling. All I am (repeatedly) pointing out is that their could be some rebalancing of the bump mechanic as stated above. CCP has re-balanced other aspects of the game for their own reasons. Ship rebalancing is primary sticking point, as they never REALLY needed re-balanced as much as they were in the first place. I mean that every ship or doctrine has a counter and if some were OP then it should have been the players job to creatively counter it (for the most part). Counters to bumping DO exist already however causing impact damage and/or repeat bumping to be viewed as inherently hostile act (meaning that its primary purpose is to cause destruction of assets) just seems to make a bit of sense to me. If emergent gameplay turned bumping into a lol, then re-balancing would cause that to be lost. it is a trade off


there are threads about this too. trouble is that it could cause a whole load of issues, like sitting on the jita undock and having ppl bump into u, so innocent ppl are becoming criminals for just undocking.

Maybe, maybe not. I was using the above stated methods as a starting point. by mournful consciousness. I am not a programmer, so I cant speculate as to the difficulty aspect. Some more rules could be changed or added to those. It is just a suggestion to help mediate this argument. here you go
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Proposal: Three strikes and out.

Within a 60 second timeframe:
1st bump - ok
2nd bump - warning
3rd bump - bumper goes suspect

What constitutes a bump?

An impact with another ship in which:
1. your ship is accelerating or maintaining velocity
2. your extended direction vector intersects with the other ship
3. you have not engaged warp
4. (possibly required to cover corner cases) you are not in a freighter.


and impact damage would be amusing in addition to being useful ;)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#451 - 2014-02-12 15:02:57 UTC
Cathy Mikakka wrote:
you would have to be with your gankmates at the gate attacking that freighter. That is all.

In Tornadoes, with a sec status of at least -4.5. Then you have to focus only on targets which can cover the cost of the Tornadoes and have enough loot to make it worthwhile after splitting it between 20 people.

Oh god.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2014-02-12 15:03:16 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


Mag's wrote:
All members except the bumper, can sit and watch TV? Am I meant to take this retort, as a serious argument?

Also, no effort in ganking? If it's so easy, then why are there not more freighter ganks? If this is so easy, then why is it seemingly so hard for you to use the tools and options provided, to avoid them?


Yes it is. Tell me, what is stopping them? Bumper can hold the ship until their show is over or until they return from work or until they finish taking ****. That is the point I dislike, not the ganking itself.

And again, if webbing fails, you are at mercy of the bumper. Until next downtime, if he wants you will do NOTHING (except maybe options retards seems to suggest like "self destruct").
If they do so what? But why would they? I can tell you now from experience in fleets, if someone is not paying attention or semi AFK, they get kicked from fleet quite soon.


Thats also a stupid argument, it may be that your Fleet handle this that Way but assuming everyone do that is just childish.



It's equally as foolish to assume most don't operate that way :)

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#453 - 2014-02-12 15:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
edit, misread :(

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mag's
Azn Empire
#454 - 2014-02-12 15:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Cathy Mikakka wrote:
I didn't feel like I need to respond to your nonsensical argument that "if ganking is easy then why do not more people gank". Dunno, maybe not everyone is an *******?
It wasn't an argument, I was asking you questions based on your stance of just how easy it is. If you feel they are nonsense, then please look to yourself for answers as to why that is.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Cathy Mikakka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#455 - 2014-02-12 15:05:59 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


To do what? Lose their ships to CONCORD? Is that your master plan? That is a win for you, losing X ships worth Y ISK for 0 ISK gain, while bumper loses MINIMUM ISK (30% of ship costs, and maybe MWD price), since ship is insured? You are ******* ridiculous...


lol, no u are the ridiculous one. and yes, if ur already in the crapper, losing some cheap ships for ganking is less than losing the freighter. its a meaningful choice and all, eve is full of them.

or a friend could try and bring another freighter, jettison and scoop whatever loot u can, double the bumpers work or maybe but half the loot in the other freighter and hope that they can't gank two at once. theres a whole bunch of things u can try to do lol, why cant u come up with any?

try not to get bumped. if u do, try to save what u can how u can. u cant win em all.

honestly, if u dnt like that, why on earth are u playing eve? this kind of mentality is a core of the game.

Great. So your master plan is to lose ISK. Is that what it is? Bumper can cause someone lose ISK for free. If that isn't golden griefing tactics then I don't know what it is.

YOU ARE MAKING YOUR PVP OPPONENT LOSE ISK NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO (There is NO win for them, only lesser lost). You don't see this imbalanced? You think this is okay? Really?

As for preventing, no prevention is 100% proof, even with alt. You can still get lag, socket can be closed on your alt, etc. Then what, you lose ISK.

Another freighter is nice, but what if you are only freighter pilot in alliance? What if you are not in alliance? What if you are in red frog and hauler is in NPC corp...

BTW do you even get insurance if you self destruct your ship?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#456 - 2014-02-12 15:09:37 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:


Thats also a stupid argument, it may be that your Fleet handle this that Way but assuming everyone do that is just childish.
It's not childish, it's called fleet discipline. In Eve, you use every tool available to succeed at the game.

This may be why you are losing, just saying.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#457 - 2014-02-12 15:11:28 UTC
Cathy Mikakka wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


To do what? Lose their ships to CONCORD? Is that your master plan? That is a win for you, losing X ships worth Y ISK for 0 ISK gain, while bumper loses MINIMUM ISK (30% of ship costs, and maybe MWD price), since ship is insured? You are ******* ridiculous...


lol, no u are the ridiculous one. and yes, if ur already in the crapper, losing some cheap ships for ganking is less than losing the freighter. its a meaningful choice and all, eve is full of them.

or a friend could try and bring another freighter, jettison and scoop whatever loot u can, double the bumpers work or maybe but half the loot in the other freighter and hope that they can't gank two at once. theres a whole bunch of things u can try to do lol, why cant u come up with any?

try not to get bumped. if u do, try to save what u can how u can. u cant win em all.

honestly, if u dnt like that, why on earth are u playing eve? this kind of mentality is a core of the game.

Great. So your master plan is to lose ISK. Is that what it is? Bumper can cause someone lose ISK for free. If that isn't golden griefing tactics then I don't know what it is.

YOU ARE MAKING YOUR PVP OPPONENT LOSE ISK NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO (There is NO win for them, only lesser lost). You don't see this imbalanced? You think this is okay? Really?

As for preventing, no prevention is 100% proof, even with alt. You can still get lag, socket can be closed on your alt, etc. Then what, you lose ISK.

Another freighter is nice, but what if you are only freighter pilot in alliance? What if you are not in alliance? What if you are in red frog and hauler is in NPC corp...

BTW do you even get insurance if you self destruct your ship?



Yes, Cathy, that is balanced. What part of PVP game didn't you get?

PVP is conflict. Conflict means there is a winner and a loser. The winner gets something, the loser loses something.

Crap happens. That's been acknowledged. No matter what happens, crap is gonna happen. Get over it. Crap happens all the time. I've lost ships because my OV bugged the hey out and was completely inoperable. Boo hoo. When life hands you a steaming pile of crap, what do you do with it? Do you let it get smashed in your face, or do you get your hand dirty and smack it away?

That's what this game is advertised as: Build your Empire by taking from others, and if you're not careful, lose it all just the same. Are you sure you're playing the right game?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#458 - 2014-02-12 15:11:45 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cathy Mikakka wrote:


Mag's wrote:
All members except the bumper, can sit and watch TV? Am I meant to take this retort, as a serious argument?

Also, no effort in ganking? If it's so easy, then why are there not more freighter ganks? If this is so easy, then why is it seemingly so hard for you to use the tools and options provided, to avoid them?


Yes it is. Tell me, what is stopping them? Bumper can hold the ship until their show is over or until they return from work or until they finish taking ****. That is the point I dislike, not the ganking itself.

And again, if webbing fails, you are at mercy of the bumper. Until next downtime, if he wants you will do NOTHING (except maybe options retards seems to suggest like "self destruct").
If they do so what? But why would they? I can tell you now from experience in fleets, if someone is not paying attention or semi AFK, they get kicked from fleet quite soon.


Thats also a stupid argument, it may be that your Fleet handle this that Way but assuming everyone do that is just childish.



It's equally as foolish to assume most don't operate that way :)


It depends on the action, and i can told you from my experience highsec ganking is pretty AFK friendly. ;)

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Cathy Mikakka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#459 - 2014-02-12 15:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Cathy Mikakka
Mag's wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:


Thats also a stupid argument, it may be that your Fleet handle this that Way but assuming everyone do that is just childish.
It's not childish, it's called fleet discipline. In Eve, you use every tool available to succeed at the game.

This may be why you are losing, just saying.

Why would you need that anyways? Just call everyone that is available on any comms once bumping starts. They can be AFK no problem and if everyone is patient they can wait till AFK guys come back, because hey, target is not going anywhere...

Kenrailae wrote:
Yes, Cathy, that is balanced. What part of PVP game didn't you get?

PVP is conflict. Conflict means there is a winner and a loser. The winner gets something, the loser loses something.

Crap happens. That's been acknowledged. No matter what happens, crap is gonna happen. Get over it. Crap happens all the time. I've lost ships because my OV bugged the hey out and was completely inoperable. Boo hoo. When life hands you a steaming pile of crap, what do you do with it? Do you let it get smashed in your face, or do you get your hand dirty and smack it away?

That's what this game is advertised as: Build your Empire by taking from others, and if you're not careful, lose it all just the same. Are you sure you're playing the right game?


No, ballanced would be if you had chance of winning that "PVP" match. If CCP introduces frigate that costs 1ISK and can mount doomsday weapon and also make that doomsday weapon like it was before, would you call that ballanced? I mean there is clearly winner and loser. Seriously....

Also, god damn, I never argued against gank, gank is fine, you lose ship and they gain something (but they lose something to concord, so you can plan your load to make it so they lose more -> you win). It's bumping that bothers me.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#460 - 2014-02-12 15:13:24 UTC
Cathy Mikakka wrote:

Great. So your master plan is to lose ISK. Is that what it is? Bumper can cause someone lose ISK for free. If that isn't golden griefing tactics then I don't know what it is.

YOU ARE MAKING YOUR PVP OPPONENT LOSE ISK NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO (There is NO win for them, only lesser lost). You don't see this imbalanced? You think this is okay? Really?

As for preventing, no prevention is 100% proof, even with alt. You can still get lag, socket can be closed on your alt, etc. Then what, you lose ISK.

Another freighter is nice, but what if you are only freighter pilot in alliance? What if you are not in alliance? What if you are in red frog and hauler is in NPC corp...

BTW do you even get insurance if you self destruct your ship?


the master plan is having an escort to prevent this situation in the first place. thats very balanced.

to say it was imbalanced would be to say its imbalanced when a shuttle is tackled by an inty. he is equally in a difficult situation and needs to consider his options, but hes probably going to lose something, if not everything.

what u seem to want, is that there is always a way out, no matter how far gone past the critical moment the situation may be. What we're trying to tell u, is that the critical moment, the moment u should do something about it, is before u undock, before u jump into system, before u get bumped. After that its about minimizing losses, or maybe bumping the bumper, ganking the bumper etc etc.

As CCP say: The choice is yours.

no i dnt think u get insurance for self destructs, i hope not. and lets not pretend freighter pilots insure their ships. i think its pretty clear they always assume everything will go fine even if they load 10bil into their freighter lol.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs