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New tier 3 battlecruisers have very low tank
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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2011-11-11 11:47:05 UTC
They won't formed into homogeneous blobs no.

However, they may slow down the unending parade of tier 2 BCs we see now.
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#42 - 2011-11-11 12:10:24 UTC
Lets see:

8x BS Sized guns and 4+ damage mods vs hauler on way to jita = free loot to scoop and less loss than a BS if the no insurance for concord stays

or

8xBS Sized Guns and 4+ damage mods vs any miner in any belt = free loot to scoop and less loss than a BS if the no insurance for concord stays

Faster lock times too Twisted

Nope, Looks like they work exactly the way CCP intended. Pirate
Etheoma
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2011-11-11 13:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Etheoma
Tbh the tornado at least because I haven't tiered the others would be uba useful for 2 things maybe 3

1. suicide gangking, which is a given
Tier 1 Battleships

2 blobing 1 or 2 people from so far away that you can pop them before they can get in range, unless they have uba range them self.
A:Covert Ops but not from such a range but they have cloaks and sensor damps and for less monies and risk

3. hit and run in fleet battles (and pray to god they cant hit you)
A: covert Ops and better for less

otherwise what cant you use them for again we will start with the obvious on what you cant do that battleship and battlecruisers can do

1. you can hit anything smaller than a battle cruiser which actually probably breaks down into 5 points

2. you cant fight in close range this means jumping in on a fleet battle when its on the gate is a Neddy no no, unless your warping into a gang that cant fire in close, or have a falcon/Arazu/cruse Pilot who can lock up and jam all of the ships.

3. In a 4 man gang you couldn't really stand up to 1 BS which you could do with tier 1 or 2 BC's

4. you couldn't stand a chance against a BC gang with a Cruse or Arazu

you know what there are lots of points that it cant do but BS's and BC's can already do but my point is that everything it can do other things can do better for the same cost or double with rig but it doesn't really add anything.

its good in a few spots but there are ships that less specialized that do a better job than it at its specialty, there for making its speciality pointless.

with this update you can really feel that the only reason they are doing it is because we complained about incarna now some of the thing are pretty good but there tier 3 BC's feel like they have been tacked on to pacify us and its not what they want to be doing.

sorry I was thinking while writing so thats why its soo long
Breacca
Vaganten
#44 - 2011-11-15 21:59:24 UTC
To answer your question without trolling:

Yes, they are 100% useless for PvE because they are ONLY PvP ships.

*abuseofnicehullsmakesmesad*
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#45 - 2011-11-15 22:14:56 UTC
The problem the new BCs is that they're really fragile and cost as much as a BS. I almost certainly won't fly them unless I need the range from large guns for some reason (meaning engaging from 120km+).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pulgy
Doomheim
#46 - 2011-11-15 22:19:35 UTC
Breacca wrote:
To answer your question without trolling:

Yes, they are 100% useless for PvE because they are ONLY PvP ships.

*abuseofnicehullsmakesmesad*


I like you.
And who would've thought a glass cannon ship breaking easily.
No range? No problem!   Join the Church of the Holy Blaster™ . A Hybrid religion.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#47 - 2011-11-15 23:29:23 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
These ships are not meant for fighting frigs, or even cruisers, unless you drop a turret for a neut or sit at 100km and one shot friggies

fyp
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2011-11-16 01:36:05 UTC
lexa21 wrote:
Short: If You think that new battlecruisers have REALLY LOW effective hit points and tank please type something like agree or signed as an answer to this topic.

Long: I was on test server few days ago. I saw new battlecruisers. They have a problems.
1st no chance to take of any frigate in disruptor range.
2nd they have no shields\armor\structure or resources to change this situation. I tried active and passive tank but in first situation there were no cap regeneration to fit actual hp regeneration (300 ehp/sec on faction npc without ab is the top situation on t2 modules) in second there is no chance to fit it better than cruiser with big pen... guns.In fact there were no pg and cap to fit dual armor rep, no cap for stable large shield booster work, no base hp and pg for good passive tank.

Ok. Weakness against small ships is a payment for great dps. But low tank make those ships useless in pve and their only role in pvp would be suicide impossible missions (except minmatars one).

This is my point of view and i want CCP knows if i`m not alone. Thks for reading.



elaborated troll.

6/10.

needs more rage.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Daergaar
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#49 - 2011-11-16 16:16:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The problem the new BCs is that they're really fragile and cost as much as a BS. I almost certainly won't fly them unless I need the range from large guns for some reason (meaning engaging from 120km+).

-Liang



If they were cheaper, I'd fly a lot of them. But I tend to agree, they are simply too expensive as it stands for me to consider using them.

However, I'm sure people with billions of ISK who don't mind using it for fun have a different opinion.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2011-11-16 16:22:32 UTC
they arent that low on ehp , 30k-40k for close ranged fit, if you go for tank
Naomi Wildfire
Sonnenlegion
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2011-11-16 17:23:15 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
they arent that low on ehp , 30k-40k for close ranged fit, if you go for tank


Tornado

High:
8x 800mm

Med:
Y-T8
DG Disruptor (or Meta something)
Invul II
2x LSE II

Low:
Internal FF
3x Gyro II

Rigs:
Anti EM
2x CDFE

30km with 750 DPS using EMP
50km with 686 DPS using Barrage
32k EHP

(DPS with Spec at 4)

You can even put a full Rack of 1400s on it and snipe from 160-170km .

I'm eager to try each one of those. The Oracle is cool aswell, you can fit Mega pulses and get them to 70km range with still 755 DPS or so. Talos can dish out 1250 non overheated DPS.

Those Ships will become a damn pain in the .. face.

ISD BH Newmind > Jingle bells, Tuxford smells, Falcon laid an egg =D
Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation
#52 - 2011-11-16 18:18:29 UTC
o.O

um... it's supposed to be an eggshell armed with a sledgehammer... it is NOT intended to be a PVE ship in any way shape or form (that's what the drake is for). Someone needs to skill up their dev blog reading/comprehension skills. At least get it started.

On the flip side this should make assaults on c1 class wormholes rather less painful than they currently are. Which in itself could be considered PvE... of sorts...
Princess Cellestia
Friendship is Podding
#53 - 2011-11-16 22:59:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The problem the new BCs is that they're really fragile and cost as much as a BS. I almost certainly won't fly them unless I need the range from large guns for some reason (meaning engaging from 120km+).

-Liang



The hell battlships are you buying? The Tier 3's based on minerals needed will cost:

Naga: 40,000,000
Tornado: 40,000,000
Talos: 50,00,000
Oracle: 50,000,000

That's with a nice markup for some decent profits. They are cheap as hell compared to even a Tier 1 battleship.
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#54 - 2011-11-17 00:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: JackStraw56
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I think they also need a penalty to tracking and webs or something to ensure that they can only hit BC/BS+

They already have this, they are using large guns with sig res of 400m. That is a significant tracking penalty against small ships.

I was flying a Tornado on the test server and warped right on top of a destroyer by chance. I couldn't hit it once no matter how hard I tried to reduce transversal.
Essensia
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#55 - 2011-11-20 03:43:58 UTC
Put in a full set of SLAVE implants or the upcoming shield hp implants and you have a different story.

Also, suicide ganking in hi-sec no longer pays out insurance... if you were destroyed by Concord.

I'm going to be flying the Oracle from now on... Can't stand the look of the Harbingers anymore.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-11-20 07:52:31 UTC
By the way, did anyone of you notice that the new T3 Battlecruisers have a quite small tank?

And what subsystems will they get? They are T3, after all...

PPP

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-11-20 09:13:11 UTC
Princess Cellestia wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The problem the new BCs is that they're really fragile and cost as much as a BS. I almost certainly won't fly them unless I need the range from large guns for some reason (meaning engaging from 120km+).

-Liang



The hell battlships are you buying? The Tier 3's based on minerals needed will cost:

Naga: 40,000,000
Tornado: 40,000,000
Talos: 50,00,000
Oracle: 50,000,000

That's with a nice markup for some decent profits. They are cheap as hell compared to even a Tier 1 battleship.



I grabbed a phoon on contracts rigged for 51mil last week.

Domi's usually run in the low 40s, 51-58 for a phoon......where are you shopping? Sure they are cost a bit more with rigs, but overally a T1 BS is pretty close to the same price range.
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#58 - 2011-11-20 10:12:19 UTC
Oracle can be quite "fat" and still sport respectable dps to boot :P

8x DHP2 , Y-T8 mwd, T2 scram, T2 web, 2x 1600 RT, 2x T2 EANM, T2 DCU, T2 HS, T1 ACR + 2x T1 Trimark , even without any implants it's rather nice. Slap in HG Slaves + Akemon ZET5000 and you're looking at 29k armor and 79k EHP (Eve's calculation) BEFORE any gang bonuses :P

And with a 180m sig as base, it even has rather decent damage mitigation from BS sized guns ;)
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#59 - 2011-11-20 11:26:56 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
The Naga shouldn't be thrown into the same class as the Talos. In fact, tier 3 battle-cruisers are suppose to be specifically designed for fleet engagements. Only 3 of these ships are optimal for such engagements. A blaster Naga, with its long falloff and optimal will be used in small engagements to skirmish and be as effective as a Tornado. The difference in velocity between teir 3 battle-cruisers are not that great either (bar penalties).

Blasters will have the best tracking of any turret PERIOD.

Something the Talos will take serious advantage of. As it is the only effective close range tier 3. There are 2 setups I have in mind for the Talos that will and has MURDERED other teir 3 battle-cruisers once in range. I've even tested the Talos dual propulsion, which will become one of my standard set-ups and another without stasis webifier at all.

The Talos is funny, because once it gets to a certain range. Most tier 3 battle-cruisers cannot track other teir 3 battle-cruiser. Talos and Naga can do that way better than the others. Thing is, the Naga can do it @ close, medium and long range (with web).

Once you throw a after-burner on the Talos though (dual propulsion, with stasis webifier) @ a certain range. You can effectively apply your damage, while another teir 3 battle-cruiser cannot.

This is a example of the set-up. I use lowest teir blasters for MAXIMUM tracking. You're able to abuse the tracking of most battle-cruisers in this ship, even a shield-Hurricane (unless neuted to sh!t). Although you would screw your own tracking in the attempt or a Brutix with a stasis webifier applied. Much easier to do against other tier 3 battle-cruisers than lower teirs. Every other teir 3 battle-cruiser will die horribly to frigates even with dual stasis webfier applied. This also helps you get out of range of other cruisers, battle-cruisers or battleships. That may be holding you. Something I only used on cruisers previously.


Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates I
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
10MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

******

Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Sputter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2011-11-20 12:36:20 UTC
I've never has any problems tracking BCs or even cruisers in an amarr BS with mega pulse so why is it that a lot of people think these new tier3 BCs will have any problems with that, I see a good role for them in pvp especially if your doing a roaming pvp gang in which if your bringing a long BS for that you might want to stop playing now for being fail. A fast moving gang with BCs using BS guns will be pretty devastating regardless of having less tank, but its not someone that you want to have be the only ship in gang and for all those that serious know how to pvp they will really enjoy these new ships and laugh as the ones who complained about them get killed off by thiers.